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Foam vs. No foam

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eric lavine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Foam vs. No foam
    Posted: November-24-2011 at 4:38pm
your right snob, i just got a plow back from last year which I welded all the gussets where they should be, the plow shouldve been taken out of service 3 years ago, after every gusset there is a crack,
exactly snob your spot on, you re-distribute the weight exactly as you would on a trailer, you must understand hydro theory, when in the water you are redistributing weight and it is equal in the water, its hydraulic theory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2011 at 3:01pm
Eric - I agree 100%. If you have a beam design that changes modulus suddenly, that is where the stress concentrates & it will crack there.    Hence tapered wall thicknesses & large fillet radii in molded parts.    Welds are a good example of a doomed design because they stop suddenly.


Very few structures have infinite life (at max cyclic load).    For some reason these factors are not published in the sales brochures.    So either avoid epic loading conditions, or don't have the expectation that it will never fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2011 at 2:07pm
one would think a 46 foot cougar that does 100 mph hitting 8 ft waves, with 10,000 lbs of engines in the ass end would snap in half, the hull averaged 3/16 across the structure, thin enough to see light thru it. 46 feet long, 8 ft beam, looking out the bow you could see the flex under way, not a drop of foam. normal single stringer design with secondaries...were talking 8 straight hours of brute punishment, to this day i have not seen a boat snap in half.
I look at these cast iron bath tubs (CC's) 19 foot long, built like a tank, if its lucky hitting someones wake is the biggest wave it will ever see in its life.
just comparing apples to apples, I really could see the foam effecting more of the structure in a negative way, glass is designed to flex as proven many times when you put a boat in the water....
in the grand scheme if that 46' footer was foamed i believe it would snap in half because you are eliminamiting the flex, alot of you guy's are engineers, and should possibly see this?
imagine if you had a rigid air plane wing, you look out that window and see it bobbin up and down, it bobs for a reason, so it doesnt snap off the side of the plane
kinda the same theory in a car possibly, you hit a wall in a 68 duece and a qauter your gonna die because of ridgity, now you take a tin can kia with crush zones the car will absorb the sudden stop. so maybe its a double edged sword, flex is definitely considered in a boats design
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swatkinz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2011 at 11:31pm
Agree with the above posters, Seb. You are hell on a boat. What's the story with the capsizing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skutsch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-09-2011 at 9:10pm
Seb - I wanna hear the story on how the boat capsized!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2011 at 6:18pm
Not to mention cruising in the Vette, BBQs and a handful of Holidays. Busy man!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charger496 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2011 at 6:09pm
Damn, Kapla! With all the prop repairs, capsizing your boat, and having to wipe sunscreen off your seats from all the pretty ladies, it's amazing you have any time to ski!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kapla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2011 at 2:15pm
My boat capsized once and then when they turn it over it kept afloat with the water to the gunnel level..using a HD water pump that the local CG had aboard they were able to dump all the water and finally towed the boat to the marina....foam I guess saved it from going to the bottom...7 years later due to this accident I had to redo my floors. Should had know the wood thing, I probalbly I would have claimed the insurance the floor repair!! LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2011 at 1:45pm
I don't think one can conclude anything other then if you keep your boat chronically soaked, bad sh|t happens. ponderous.


My noodles are doing just fine since '97.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charger496 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2011 at 1:22pm
I'm sure pool noodle technology has come a long way recently, what with the advent of....hell, they better be better now. They's in ma boat!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2011 at 3:06am
I restored a Glastron Skiflite a few years back (I still don't know why) . The hull was in nice shape, but the floor and stringers were mud. The PO had screwed a sheet of treated 3/4" plywood to the rotten floor with drywall screws that were a little too long. When I removed all the material from this quality repair I found that he had stuffed pool noodles under the floor through some holes he made before he screwed the plywood on top of the rotten floor. The pool noodles were saturated and almost as heavy as concrete. They broke apart under their own weight when handling them. I left a big piece of one out all summer to see what would happen. It only lost a little weight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-10-2011 at 1:35pm
had drifted 4 miles from the boat that capsized and sank

It's a recent story so we'll see if they show or mention the boat. Just saying...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2011 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by KRoundy KRoundy wrote:

Gary, I LOVE that old Merc. Nice shot!


Unfortunately Kevin that old '64 is history.Last winter it started to have starting issues.You have to pull the powerhead to remove the starter.Dad being in his mid 80's just can't work on them anymore or use the pullstart if need be so he took it in and was advised that it was not worth it.That and the fact it was in Florida saltwater now,the wiring was going too.Before I could get it back he had got rid of it.So this spring he found a low hour '03 Mercury 25 up here and he's going to ship it down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbishop1974 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2011 at 10:13pm
last night i went down to check on my boat,nice moon lit night,having a frosty adult beverage when i notice something in the water by my neighbors dock.i thought she might have put in her sunfish sailboat.as iam leaving i walk over and notice its the cover to her 18ft stingray in the water.so much for USCG flotation,cover was still on the boat and the boat was at the bottom of the lake.i believe foams only purpose would be as a sound deadner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luchog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2011 at 12:56pm
I have an 80hp Mercury with the blue stripe on my dad's 1978 16' boat. Awesome motor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KRoundy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-07-2011 at 12:27pm
Gary, I LOVE that old Merc. Nice shot!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote harddock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2011 at 10:25am
Anyone ever think of using 2 litre soda bottles? They would last forever, provide flotation, and not hold water if capped. They offer no structural support but noodles can't be much better.

As for the bashing. If it comes from a salesman, it might as well come out of a politition. The crap the reps feed you about how good your product is versus how bad the other guys stuff is usually about 99% bull.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2011 at 12:47pm
Here's my Dads now primary Florida boat,a '69 Herters.No foam, just bench seats in the shape of an upside down U that also provide flotation. Since you walk right on the bottom,you can see it flex, so much so that it was scarry at first.No cracks in the gel after all these years

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luchog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2011 at 12:35pm
Greg, my point is from a structural standpoint, the foams add little or nothing, you could fill it with concrete, but it's still unneeded.
How many boats are running no foam and no catastrophic failure occurrs?

As Miskier stated these boats are way overdone on structure, specially the old ones, the stringer we are used too see are unthinkable on most other boats.

Yes, there's the CG regs and the sound dampening, but that's a whole different matter. probably a composite hull without any foam would sound very shallow on the chop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2011 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by Luchog Luchog wrote:

What keeps the boat in shape is the floor/stringer/hull combo, I dont know why foam is being thrown in the structural discussion.


would you foam or not foam? This is the only debatable issue, because i'ts not fundamental to boat building structure.


I gotta go with Tim on this one. I could stand on a chunk of wet foam out of my boat and it didn't give. Also Coast Guard regs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luchog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2011 at 5:42pm
What keeps the boat in shape is the floor/stringer/hull combo, I dont know why foam is being thrown in the structural discussion.

if you had to build a boat
Would you cheap on the floors?
Would you cheap on the stringers?
would you cheap on the hull?
would you foam or not foam? This is the only debatable issue, because i'ts not fundamental to boat building structure.

And hulls are ticker on the keel because that's where all the unattached resin ends while laminating!!!

Hulls dont need to be rigid, just on certain points, too rigid cracks, some flex points are even good for the structure.
And I suggest checking on the newer CCs before talking on other brands lamination, as they have gotten thinner lately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-01-2011 at 12:38pm
When I took my supreme apart, they are not foam filled.
There is a big glob high in the bow, some rigid foam strips just tacked to the inner gunnels, and two strips, like 4x4s under the floor, tacked with glass to the hull.
The boat met level flotation standards that way. I have no need for a boat to remain operable after chainsawing a chunk out like a whaleboat or ranger.
Its basically rigid pool noodles with glass straps. I added some pool noodles under the floor after removing some foam from the bow for more storage.

Now a 70s-80s nautique has glass about twice as thick everywhere. Before foam I believe they are multiple times more rigid than other boats that still perform after 30-40 years . So how rigid is enough?
The concept that a nautique is not rigid enough without foam filling is just absurd to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2011 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is old wet foam does not provide any support and to this day, I've never seen a hull fail do to the lack of the added strength of foam.

I gotta disagree with you here, Pete. Soaked or not, foam does lend structural rigidity between the hull and floor. You and I both know that there are many boats running around with rotten stringers, yet somehow they still hold together. Im not sure that would be the case if the only thing holding the boat together were rotten stringers (no foam to keep everything moving together).

I dont know about you, but I dont know of any boats that have had their foam removed, then sealed back up with rotten stringers. That seems like a recipe for disaster. A foamless boat (whether the stringers are old or new) is not likely to fail, as the stringers are not likely to be rotten in the first place... so thats not what Im referring to.

Like you, Im a no-foam guy because I hate holding water in the structure. I like the fact that foamless structures can drain and breathe- so they should be much less prone to rot. What Im saying above is that if rotten stringers are a foregone conclusion, Id much rather have foam down there holding everything together rather than rotten stringers alone.

Tim,
There are times that you are as ADD as I am!! Please note that in my post, I never mentioned stringer issues. It was simply hull thickness and foam adding to the rigidity of the hull!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mdvalant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2011 at 2:02pm
Our Hydrodyne has rotten stringers and no foam. I think the top shell is the only thing holding it together. But it does look nice!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2011 at 11:47am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is old wet foam does not provide any support and to this day, I've never seen a hull fail do to the lack of the added strength of foam.

I gotta disagree with you here, Pete. Soaked or not, foam does lend structural rigidity between the hull and floor. You and I both know that there are many boats running around with rotten stringers, yet somehow they still hold together. Im not sure that would be the case if the only thing holding the boat together were rotten stringers (no foam to keep everything moving together).

I dont know about you, but I dont know of any boats that have had their foam removed, then sealed back up with rotten stringers. That seems like a recipe for disaster. A foamless boat (whether the stringers are old or new) is not likely to fail, as the stringers are not likely to be rotten in the first place... so thats not what Im referring to.

Like you, Im a no-foam guy because I hate holding water in the structure. I like the fact that foamless structures can drain and breathe- so they should be much less prone to rot. What Im saying above is that if rotten stringers are a foregone conclusion, Id much rather have foam down there holding everything together rather than rotten stringers alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2011 at 11:10am
as far as floatation goes I wonder if air bladders under the floor with easy access pressure monitoring would ease the sinking feeling of having no foam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2011 at 9:39am
Mike,
Don't worry about hating yourself for commenting as this subject has come up many times with many opinions and yes "seat of the pants" engineering!!

I feel the era (year) of the boat hull makes a big difference. Early glass hulls were thicker and certainly did not need the foam. Then, as years past, hulls were made thinner and the added rigidity of the foam was "engineered" into the hull strength.

One thing to keep in mind is old wet foam does not provide any support and to this day, I've never seen a hull fail do to the lack of the added strength of foam.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mountaineerminer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-30-2011 at 2:58am
I will hate myself for getting involved in this...

The epic battle between foam and no foam; How does one test hull rigidity as an affect of foam content? Seat of the pants? Can you feel the hull flex at 25 knots or do you just feel the waves beat the hell out of you?

I am going on the assumption that the foam does make a difference to ride quality; why wouldent it. Properly installed foam should dampen the impact of the water felt by passengers. Also, in theory it seems filling the void between stringers would increase stiffness. And third, it will help a boat full of water float better.

I also dont like the negative of expanding foam, water retention....

Well, I havent settled anything; but I did ramble on about my opinion on foam, and everyone knows what opinons are like.

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2011 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

Agreed, thicken your skin that was just good old fashioned salesman bashing!

The layup in the non foamed areas of my 83 was thicker than in the originally foamed areas

This likely had more to do with the proximity to keel, larger span between stringers, relative flatness of the area in question, etc. than the simple fact that the area wasn’t foamed but nonetheless the bilge where I cut through for the paddle wheel was 3x thicker than the area forward between the stringers that I cut through due to carelessness.

I dont disagree that the layup on a skiboat is in general considerably more substancial than is required by the loading seen on the hull during normal use.. however I tend to not discount the abnoral situations very quickly. I am not sure that I wouldnt possibly see a rock, log, or worse at some point (hopefully not at speed but it can't be ruled out).   Even a broken or poorly designed trailer or hoist bunk can provide significantly larger point loading than a boat sees in normal use.

My position remains that you dont need no rottin, stinkin foam.. but if you simply remove it and dont give any thought to replaceing the benefits it supplies you may (although likely not on most of these boats) someday regret it..


3X thicker at the keel Every boat that I have dealt with as far as the lamination is concerned has never varied that much in such a short span. Generally it has varied by several layers, never multiples of the hull thickness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MIskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2011 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by Riley Riley wrote:

Bashing is part of competition. The salesman I refer to was actualy a sales rep from Mastercraft and our conversation started out with him telling me how Malibu and Nautique were poor quality boats compared to a Mastercraft, he was bashing. When I told him I owned a fairly new Malibu, he backed off, but I told him he wasn't hurting my feelings and I wanted him to show me why he thought his boats were better. He went on for a half hour. I was impressed with the thick plug he showed me and I asked him if maybe due to all that weight from the thickness of the hull was the reason why the Pro Stars are so slow out of the hole and at top end. He actually told me they were designed to be slow as ski boats don't need to be fast. Tim, I think that was the Sunday after the Saturday that you guys were eating Cheezits in his boats.

Anyone ever try putting a match to a pool noodle?



MC dealers and reps do seem to like to do that, and it is off putting to me as well. All of the dealers do it and it varies from sales person to sales person.

It has gotten worse as they have added more models and attracted well healed wally's who don't know one brand from the other.

Believe me it makes my skin crawl when I read a post about one of these brands and why they are better than another, and the comment is made by a guy whom you know has the dealer do everything to the boat.
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