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AZ86SKI 
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Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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 Topic: Acceleration issues.Posted: July-13-2022 at 6:09pm |
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Hello all,
I have been following this site for over a year and this is my first post. Before I begin, I would just like to say there is no way I would be even close to how far along I have come to bringing this boat back to life without all of the great technical advice I have read on this site. Not to mention the humor and inspiration of other member's much greater projects to keep me motivated, so thanks again. So, this where I am at. I have a 1986 Ski Nautique with a 351W Commander package. I had been storing the boat for a family friend for a number of years, but it sat due to mechanical issues but reportedly ran great at one time. They ended up leaving the state and I became the new owner and I have been working on it ever since. I feel I am very close experiencing the boats full performance, but I am stumped with some final acceleration issues and could use some advice. Acceleration problem #1: On the water under load, when I give it throttle from idle it stumbles and dies. I does much better in reverse as there is not as much load as I have read. I can increase the idle and throttle my way through/around it but the high idle makes it tricky around the docks and is not a long-term solution and can't be great for the transmission. There was a previous post "Stalling in forward" that was very similar, but there was no solution posted. I have also followed the posted advice on setting the throttle cable linkage correctly as well. Acceleration problem #2: On the water under load at about 2700 rpm, additional throttle does not increase RPM/speed. Which feels to me as if the secondaries are not opening. However, that is based only on what I suspect on what I have read. I have not had the opportunity to physically observe that this is the case as the GF has not yet agreed to help me check this on open water under load. Since she had to help me push this boat after it has died on the water once or twice already, I'm giving her a little room this one.  Seems to run great once past the stall attempt from idle and to the 2700 or so rpms. The following is based on what I have done, and some based on what my boat mechanic has advised. I will try to limit what was done in regard to acceleration issues. Compression test was good (can provided numbers if needed). Leak down test was good. Holley 4160 Carburetor was rebuilt by mechanic. Holley wedge plate was installed/all new gaskets by mechanic but not skidim gaskets as I have seen suggested. All new fuel filters and all new fuel. DUI conversion done by mechanic. New wires, new plugs (no fouling), wiring order triple checked. Timing set to 12 degrees BTDC Manifold bolts tightened to spec. Electric choke adjusted and verified that it is fully open when warm. Vacuum leaks checked around base of carb and manifold. (3/4 can of carb cleaner and 1/2 bottle propane) -It doesn't mean it's not there, but I haven't found one. -Vacuum gauge from back of carburetor to the PCV (Not on a T but directly from the PCV hose) shows a steady 15-16 lbs. vacuum. It is my understanding it should be showing 19-22. Other possible indicators: At idle (no throttle at all) seems fine from when its first started and idling at the boat launch. When I come off throttle to idle after a run (at a whopping 2700 rpms ) the idle hangs high (1000 rpms or so). When the engine cools after sitting, the idle drops back down. Also, both cold and hot starts need a pump of the accelerator to start. Cold start needs three pumps and throttle left open 1/3. Hot starts need one pump. Finally, the idle mixture screws seem happiest at about 3-3.5 rotations out (based on my vacuum test). My thoughts are a vacuum leak, but I can't find one and I could also be completely wrong. I have attached a photo of the engine if anyone sees anything obvious that may be related or not that needs addressing (and to see if I could post a photo correctly). Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I hope I have described this somewhat clearly and look forward to being part of this great community.  |
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10652 |
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Posted: July-13-2022 at 9:13pm |
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A couple of things come to mind
Your timing is at 12 degrees BTDC at idle speed, what is it a 3500 rpm revving it in neutral. It should get there easily in neutral with no load on the engine and the timing should end up at somewhere between 32 and 36 degrees. Your vacuum reading of a steady 15 to 16 sounds OK. What do you have for a prop on the boat? it would take a way oversized prop to keep RPMs that low but it's worth asking the question If you're only getting to 2700 RPMs your secondaries won't open due to not enough air flow down the venturis.to create the vacuum signal that opens them. (it's not engine vacuum) If everything was good, and the secondaries weren't opening you'd only be down a few hundred RPM from a normal of about 44 to 4500 ish and be down a few MPH also. 3 to 3.5 turns out on the idle mixture screws would be telling me you have some restricted/dirty passages in the idle circuit. Good job getting a picture posted in your first post. Ok, so that was more than a couple of things  And in true Colunbo fashion......................just one more thing, when you're at 2700 RPM, how fast is the boat going ?
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 2:20pm |
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KENO,
Thank you for reply. I really appreciate it. 1. On the trailer in neutral, the timing at 3000 rpms is at 24 degrees. This from my mechanics notes when the DUI conversion was done. I can check it again myself and get it up to 3500 rpms and check it there as well if that would help. I should also note that the distributor that I replaced was a motorcraft automotive distributor, so it must have had distributor issues in the past. 2. The prop markings are "7 85 FEDERAL NI-BRAL CUP 13RH13". 3. Your explanation of only getting to 2700 rpms not being enough to create the vacuum signal makes a lot of sense versus engine vacuum. I guess I should also mention that I replaced the secondary spring to one lighter in hopes for a solution but there was no change which again supports your point. 4. Regarding dirty passages in idle circuit. I know very little about the internal parts of the carburetor, so I have left that to the experts. I've had the carb rebuilt twice now by reputable shops, once when I first got the boat about a year and half ago to at least get it running and then again recently when the DUI conversion was done when the mechanic noticed excessive fuel delivery. I would hope it's clean by now, but I'm not ruling anything out with this boat at this point. 5. Only one of the speedometers is working at this point (I can't wait to be able to work on those things whenever I get past these issues). However, it appears to track the RPMs fairly close to 1:1. 2700 rpms is showing close to 27 mph. Hopefully this helps, please let me know what you think. Thanks |
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KENO
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 2:56pm |
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I think you're doing your homework really well
There should be about 30 to 34 degrees advance at 3500 RPM. You should have 20 to 24 degrees of mechanical advance on top of your initial idle setting . DUI says 24 degrees of mechanical advance from the flyweights and springs that are installed. People seem to see between 20 and 24, but that's still a lot more than what looks like 14 degrees of mechanical advance that you have now. I'd check that for sure. Check the initial and the total. The prop is right for the boat and the speed vs RPM correlation is right.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 3:27pm |
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I will double check the initial and total timing at 3500 rpms this weekend (if not sooner) and post the results. Thanks again! |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 3:38pm |
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Just to help on the timing as Ken recommended, your distributor can give you 20 to 24* advance. So your initial setting of 12* would give you somewhere between 32 and 36 TOTAL timing which is the number you want to know for good performance.
It does sound like your carb still has some issues but the first thing I would verify is your throttle cable connection. Make sure when you open the throttle from the driver seat it actually does open the throttle at the carburetor. You would need to remove the spark arrestor, Engine turned off, open the throttle full and look down the carb to see how far the butterfly's are open. You will probably need to open the choke first by hand to see what the butterfly's below the choke are doing. This will verify your Primary, (front 2 barrels of your 4 bbl carb) are doing. If they are not straight up and down with your throttle wide open it can be adjusted to fix it. This is a simple 5 minute check to do before getting into complicated stuff. Nice work so far. Mark
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Tomrupp
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Joined: October-14-2021 Location: MI Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 3:54pm |
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As for #5, download a GPS speedometer to your smart phone. They are accurate and free of charge. I do encourage you to get the original 2 speedos working, but smooth running 351 would be my 1st priority.
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Tom
94 Ski Nautique Open Bow 351 with Carb 95 Double Decker Aqua Patio with 50hp Honda (3 carbs). |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 4:06pm |
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I had issues with my first Nautique, a 1978 351W boat. The 4 barrel would not open for most of a summer before I got it fixed. We were able to ski just fine, pulled up heavy skiers no problem and I think it would still run up to at least 4,000 RPM no problem. It was just not as fast with only the 2bbl working.
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KENO
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 8:22pm |
If you set the linkage correctly, hopefully you checked for full opening of the primary butterflies, but if you didn't then MrMcD's suggestion would be the next thing to check. It would be a nice easy fix
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 8:55pm |
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Mark,
I am optimistic that the total timing issue will be confirmed (confirmed as a problem). I will definitely get those results posted soon. I followed a previous post awhile back that described advancing the throttle forward to the detent and then attaching the other end of the throttle cable to the carburetor at that point. The explanation I read (to include the neutral position for the transmission) was much better than mine, but it seemed to get me extremely close to what I think feels right (or close to right) on the linkage. Thank you for the recommendation on checking the primary butterflies at WOT. This is something I had not done. I just checked and the primary butterflies are both fully open at WOT. Anything we can check off the list is a win. Thanks. |
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 9:02pm |
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Tommrupp,
Thank you for the tip. I will definitely get that downloaded. I am hoping that when the top end issue is resolved on this boat that it will take off like a rocket and break the one working speedometer needle. I'm kidding (half kidding).
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-14-2022 at 9:36pm |
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Dang, that would have been an easy fix. Hope the real fix comes along soon.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 1:59pm |
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Well...I couldn't wait until weekend to check the timing as we discussed, so the neighbors got to listen to 3500 rpms this am (not too early though).
 At idle which is about 750 RPM the initial timing is set at 12 degrees BTDC. Idle under 750 RPMs seems like it wants to try and stall, so that's where I have kept it. At 2000 RPM the timing is about 22 degrees and at 3500 RPM the timing is in the mid 30's. It is hard to tell the exact number as it was bouncing around a bit, but my best estimate would be about 35 degrees. At 3000 RPM it made a few popping noises, not backfiring though, and then smoothed out. That engine has not been run at those RPMs in quite some time. Sounded great once it smoothed out though. I can only assume my mechanics notes regarding timing at 24 degrees at 3000 RPM were somehow inaccurate. However, these are the numbers I am seeing, which seems more in line with what they should be based on the recommendations. Any thoughts?
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63 Skier
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 4:38pm |
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Your mechanic might have been saying you had 24 degrees of mechanical advance, not total. Just a guess. In your list of things done you mention new fuel filters and new fuel. Has the fuel pump pressure been looked at?
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 4:38pm |
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And anti-siphon valve at the tank?
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 5:14pm |
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63 Skier,
I have gone through from the tank, pick up tube (that's what I called it), anti-siphon valve and everything was cleaned. I replaced the filter at the fuel pump, bought and installed a NOS fuel filter/water separator (orange cannister style). I have not checked the fuel pump pressure. I believe the vacuum gauge I purchased to check the vacuum at the carb also can be used to check fuel pressure. It does appear to me to be the original fuel pump, but that is only an assumption on my part. Any suggestions on the best way to check the fuel pressure since I have never done it? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 6:49pm |
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Fuel pressure should be 4-6 PSI with a carburetor. A test that helps when looking for proper fuel flow out of the pump is to take the fuel line and divert it into a gallon or larger jug. Feed the carb with an alternate fuel source so you can start the engine and watch how much fuel actually pumps into your container. The fuel pump should put a 1/4 gallon into that jug in about 30 seconds run time. You should see a constant flow of fuel. Next would be to test for pressure and most vacuum gauges do have the ability to test for fuel pressure on carbureted engines. Under 10 PSI systems. Flow is important as much as 4-6 PSI of pressure.
There may be enough fuel in your carb bowl to run for almost a minute and do this test without hooking up an alternate fuel source. You just want to see a constant flow of fuel and it should increase in flow if you bump the RPM up a little. OBVIOUSLY extreme care needs to be taken or you can start a fire and burn up your boat. Having a fire extinguisher handy is better than a good idea.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 8:10pm |
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Excellent advice regarding both fuel pressure and fuel flow testing. I will take the necessary precautions and check both of those this weekend. I have definitely learned a ton working on this boat and fuel pressure and fuel flow is the next homework assignment. I will post the results once I have some. Thanks!
Here is a photo of the fuel pump that is on it now just for reference. Not sure why the photo appears sideways.  |
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KENO
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 9:28pm |
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That's a Carter fuel pump and that little canister on the bottom held in place by the thumbscrew has a small filter inside of it. Maybe you already put a new filter in there..............maybe not.
Your ruptured diaphragm overflow tube must come out the backside of the pump and is camera shy in the picture. In your first post you can see the tube hooked to the flame arrestor
It looks in your first photo like you have a rubber fuel line, It could be original and coast guard approved or replaced sometime over the years with who knows what. If you want to test fuel pressure, unhook the line from the carburetor and with a little extra line and a tee fitting you can have your gauge hooked up temporarily. For your next homework question, will this thing run along sounding good at 2700 RPM for minutes at a time or does it spit, sputter and lose RPMs like it running out of gas?. |
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 11:45am |
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Hey KENO,
I haven't tested the fuel flow or fuel pressure yet but I wanted to respond your post. I did replace the the filter in the bottom of the fuel pump awhile back. The ruptured diaphragm overflow tube (a new part name for me) does connect to the back/top of the fuel pump. Homework Question: The boat seems like it will run all day up to 2500-2700 RPM with no issues (once past the stall issue from idle discussed). When I try to give it more throttle beyond that (even to WOT) it just makes a sound like when you are at the doctors office and they tell you to say "Ahhhhhhh." I know that is likely the least technical way to describe it, but that's what it sounds like to my untrained ear. It doesn't speed up and it doesn't slow down. It doesn't really spit or sputter and it doesn't lose RPMs. Pull the throttle back to 2500-2700, the "Ahhhhhh" goes away and the boat drives on. I will test the fuel flow and fuel pressure and post it soon. It's going to be 114 degrees here today, but I am motivating myself to get it done this weekend. I have attached a photo of the other side of the engine for reference. Thanks!  |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 11:57am |
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Any chance the floats are just adjusted to low and it is running out of fuel?
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63 Skier
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 12:18pm |
Certainly seems like a fuel problem to me, since total advance has been confirmed. One other item to mention - when I first got my '98 it ran well but would bog when running over 3,500 or so rpm. It was pretty much ok for skiing but any more throttle and it would bog and surge. Had a hard time figuring it out, a mechanic determined it was a collapsing fuel line, replaced the fuel hose to the tank, problem was solved. Pretty much same symptoms as a partially failed anti-siphon valve but turned out it was the hose, not the valve.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 2:17pm |
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Tracing problems can sometimes be a real test.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 3:06pm |
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Ok, I got the fuel pressure and fuel flow tested before the peak of the heat today, so this is what I found.
The fuel flow at idle appears to be putting out a good amount of fuel, especially for being at idle (but that is my novice opinion). I would say it would be in line with the 1/4 gallon at a 30 second run as suggested. I did not actually time it out to 30 seconds as I was doing this project by myself and dealing with fuel I was trying error on the side of caution with everything going on. However, it was not a completely steady flow at idle. I attached a rubber fuel line to the end of the fuel line that attaches to the carburetor and then ran that line into a gas can. When I observed the fuel flowing into the can it was pulsing a bit as if in sync with the pump. There were no breaks in the fuel delivery but you could definitely feel the fuel pump working in the rubber fuel line. I am not sure if this is to be expected (seems logical though) since I have never tested fuel flow before. The fuel pressure was at 6 and I tested this a couple of times. I also checked the fuel lines from the carburetor all the way back to the tank for any binds or collapses and everything looked good. In dealing with this fuel line again after awhile (one of the first things I tackled over a year ago), I now recall when I cleaned the pickup tube and anti-siphon valve (not knowing what it was called then), the valve did not appear to have a ball or any other part in it, if I recall correctly. I wasn't sure at the time if it was just how the fitting was made or not so I just cleaned it and moved on. Now that I am a bit wiser (and I do mean a bit) that issue needs to re-addressed. In reading today, its a huge safety issue as well so I will put it on top of my list to find a new one. Although, I know the line/valve was cleaned and not obstructed. Below is a photo of what I am referring to when I say anti-siphon valve for clarity (assuming I'm correct). Would the unobstructed anti-siphon valve cause any of the symptoms? Perhaps a reason for needing some throttle to start hot and cold? Any thoughts on the fuel flow, fuel pressure or are we headed to the carburetor? Anymore homework assignments? Thanks for everyone guidance, I really do appreciate it!  |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 3:55pm |
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Progress, you have good flow and perfect pressure. Done with that. On the water run it till the engine starts to strain and refuse to go faster. Quickly shut off the key and coast to a stop. Key off, lift the engine cover remove the spark arrestor and manually open the throttle while staring down the carb. You should see a squirt of fuel in each front barrel. If it squirts on the first try you might pump it a couple more times to see if the accelerator pump has access to fuel. If it is dry or goes dry after 1-3 squirts the bowl is empty telling you the engine used more gas that the inlet supplied. Someone will jump in and correct if my thinking is off. I think this test will tell you if fuel supply at the carb is your issue. There is still a filter where the line attaches to the carb and then the float adjustment in the bowl and the needle and seat that opens and closes that flow of fuel to the bowl. Obviously something is not working but I am guessing and throwing out ideas.
Edit, the bowl might refill just in the time it takes from when you turn off the key till the engine actually stops but I am trying to find a way to check without tearing apart your carb. Assuming your carb does not have external float adjustments or the side sight window?
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KENO
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 8:54pm |
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So John
There I was sittin' on the can after supper, thinking about your issue and suddenly it hit me...............constipation. No not me, but maybe your boat is constipated . How could that be you might wonder If you have a restricted exhaust, it'll limit how much air the engine can draw in and get rid of out the exhaust which will limit how much power it can make, which will limit your top speed and acceleration because the prop is too much for the reduced power output and you get that sound you described.. Easy for me to say from 2500 or so miles away, but I think you should at least check your exhaust hoses and mufflers for restriction. Hoses can collapse internally from excess heat like an overheat in the boats past or just plain get old and start coming apart. The mufflers have some built in restriction from baffles, but a broken baffle lodged in the wrong spot can have a big effect on backpressure and power. It's not the easiest thing to do wrestling with those wire reinforced hoses and having to be kinda delicate where the hose clamps to the fiberglass muffler so you don't break the muffler but since you're kinda at a loss for what to do it's probably worth a look at least. It kinda like having a restricted catalytic converter or muffler in your car. |
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RealDeez
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 9:38pm |
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Well that's undoubtedly a much better line of inquiry than mine since I have nothing like Keno level knowledge or experience but I'll ask my question anyway... maybe more for my own potential future knowledge than anything else...
I was thinking about the aaaaaah sound mentioned, then I thought about how it sounds like kind of a wuuaaaahh sound when the secondaries open up on my boat... at least I think that's what the noise is from. So I wondered if the aaaaah sound might be the sound of secondaries opening but no fuel in the secondary bowl...? Sorry in advance if I've done nothing more than expose my own ignorance here but this is how I learn... |
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Lake James, IN
93 Sport Nautique |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 1:14am |
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Constipation! Well good ideas come from common everyday work! Plugged exhaust can certainly do that. I looked it up once but it was several years back. The exhaust hoses with the collapsable wall were used up until somewhere around 1990? The law changed and it allowed non collapsing hoses after that. Not sure exactly when the change went into effect.
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KENO
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 6:37am |
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The secondaries won't open till higher speeds/airflow and he's having acceleration problems just trying to get to those speeds.
I think lots of extra air through the secondaries and no extra gas would make for a real lean engine that wouldn't want to maintain speed and probably just die
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 12:13pm |
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That would be true if his gas flow shut off, if it is just dribbling in due to a very low float setting or a plugged float valve it works like a lousy rev limiter. Engine revs till it runs out of fuel and then slows to match the fuel flow. Does not just die dead.
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AZ86SKI wrote: