Voltage for my pro-tec swap |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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Nobody is saying you did anything wrong, you (and apparently some master mechanics you talked to) just don't fully understand how these solenoids work. Why not admit to learning something here instead of continually defending yourself?
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2863 |
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KENO: I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an electrician (but I do play a rocket scientist on TV). As such, I did some initial fact-finding on starter switches / solenoids by raising this question to a couple of local master mechanics. One guy in particular started turning wrenches back in the '70s. Both guys I spoke with told me that certain starter switches / solenoids have the "I" terminal that can be used for this specific purpose. I did not do any write-up on my specific procedure, as JPASS did such a good job on his Pro-Tech swap-out. I didn't feel I could really add anything substantial to his work. That said, I did do things just a little different than JPASS, but our methods were very similar in principle and theory. There are several ways to accomplish the same goal. If folks are comfortable with re-wiring the PCM/Pro-Tech wire harness, then that is a solution that has produced good results. I'm simply stating that I went with a slightly different approach that has also yielded good results. I simply did not want any Pro-Tech gear left on my engine. Same with the old TBI gear. I pulled everything off. (The only exception is that I left the oil pressure and water temperature switches in place). This methodology caused me to go in a slightly different direction when it came to wiring the DUI. I just ran the tach out to the gray wire on the wiring harness. Then I ran the 12V feed to the DUI from the "I" terminal. I did install a 20 amp fuse in-line for protection. That's it -- 2 wires. I'm not advocating that anybody follow my procedure as this is for informational purposes only. JQ |
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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hey man maybe the por-tec solenoids are different
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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Sorry, but this is driving me nuts. The "I" terminal is absolutely not hot when the key is in the run position. Yes, you measure 12V when you put your meter on it but the voltage is not coming from the relay terminal. It's coming from the wire that is attached to the terminal. Disconnect the wire then turn the key to run and you will read 0V on the terminal. I will stake my electrical engineering degree and 34 years of experience on this. |
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malcolm2
Senior Member Joined: June-13-2010 Location: Nashville Status: Offline Points: 235 |
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I guess it all started when I read that the D.U.I needed 10.5 volts to fire. So per the JPASS thread, I checked wire 26 ("P") at key position 2 (start) and it only had 8-ish volts. So this thread was really more about how to get >=10.5v on that wire. We ended up finding out lots of other stuff too. I am glad to get some discussion about it. BTW my "I" term is hot on key position 1 (on) and 2, so Rob's suggestion would work on my old relay. Not sure about the new relay, have not done the final measurements with the new starter. Once I get that, you can say, "5 people that you know of". |
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JPASS
Grand Poobah Joined: June-17-2013 Location: Orlando Status: Offline Points: 2283 |
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4 people that I know of (including myself) have done this swap since I created the write up a little over a year ago. Each one worked perfectly fine. I'm confused as to why this is such an issue on this install?
I say install it per the write up and if you have any issues afterwards, let us know what they are and we can hopefully get you up and running. |
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'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10718 |
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This is for Jonny
I'm sure your way works and is pretty straightforward using the "I" terminal, but you seem to think that the "I" terminal is powered internally from the solenoid when the key is in RUN. The solenoid isn't built that way.(you need to do a little solenoid research) In START the "I" is powered internally, in RUN in this application, it's getting power from an external source as previously posted by Desertskier and me. In many applications (non Pro Tec) the "I" terminal has NO POWER in RUN as stated by TRbeng and isn't even used unless you're bypassing a ballast resistor on startup in some applications. Lots of solenoids out there with no "I" terminal at all on the solenoid. I'd say your info is sketchy and incomplete making it hard to follow what you're saying unlike the JPASS writeup. I also agree your method is simple and works good, since the boat runs, just explain it better.. |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2863 |
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Guys,
My system is wired EXACTLY as shown in the starter / solenoid switch diagram I recently posted. The "I" terminal has nominal 12V when ignition switch is in either run or start position. Turn key on...power to DUI. Turn key to start...300 ponies roar to life. Turn key off...engine shuts off. It appears that there are several possible wiring options to solve the "how to wire DUI" question. My comment is that the method I used works well and was very simple. I have NO ProTech parts left on my rig. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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Clark,
I would wire it up according to JP's write-up. The DUI will then be connected exactly the same way as the protec was. After you get it running make some voltage measurements and then you can decide if any changes need to be made. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10718 |
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Looks to me like the ORIGINAL setup in the diagram on page 1 would have the following flowpath when the key is in START. You turn the key and energize the start solenoid, the starter cranks and the "I" terminal gets powered thru the solenoid. From the "I" it goes thru the fusible link to the 12.5 amp breaker thru wire 26 to the ECM (and also the choke)
Now you let the key go to the RUN position, the "I" terminal is no longer powered from the solenoid (since that's how the solenoid is physically constructed) but the power now comes from the keyswitch in RUN thru the 28 wire to the 41 to the 26 wire to the ECM.(and also the ckoke). Kind of an odd use of the "I" terminal but it works and seems like you get the highest voltage to the ECM when starting (basically a shorter flowpath without going up to the dash during the START phase. (Big contacts in the solenoid straight to the "I" terminal). There are at least a few points you can hook in for DUI power from the looks of it. By the way I can barely spel ElekTrickal but this makes sense to me. I think Desertskier has already pretty much said this. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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I am not familiar enough with the protec wiring to tell you which wire to source your 12v ignition feed from. You'll need to study the schematic and verify with a multimeter (at least that's what id do). Whichever source you choose, I would not use the relay as your connection point to connect the ign 12v to the wire running to the DUI, as the relay does not have a 12v ignition source. Just connect the DUI directly to the source and leave the relay alone.
For non-protec boats, the former coil + wire (or a new wire run to the input of the ballast resistor) is a good place to steal 12v ignition for the DUI. |
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malcolm2
Senior Member Joined: June-13-2010 Location: Nashville Status: Offline Points: 235 |
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Could you be more specific....which "2 wires"? I am planning on using the wiring method that uses the #26 wire. There is a thread that suggests to cut it from the EMS connector (labeled "P" and 26 on the page 1 schematic) and splice it to one of the wires that formerly went to the trigger connector, A, B, C, or D. Can't remember which. It does not really matter, just need a "red" wire to continue on from the 12.5 amp break to the hot DUI connection. When you say to "leave the relay out of the equation", is the above method what you suggest? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Possible, though a little strange that they would have used the I terminal for the protec.
I would not use the I terminal as a jumper point for supplying ignition voltage for the DUI. Back feeding voltage into the start relay while running may or may not cause an issue immediately, but it's not appropriate to do so. Hook the 2 wires together and leave the relay out of the equation. |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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I agree other than according to the schematic on the previous page it looks like PCM used the "I" terminal for the Protec engines. The voltage goes through the fusible link then the 12.5 breaker to the protec connector. If the key switch has voltage on both the start and run outputs when the key is in the start position that means that the normal ignition voltage is being supplemented by the "I" terminal voltage when the engine is starting. After that the purple wire from the dash/key is the ignition voltage source. Not sure how JQ wired his but I think he has two wires going to his "I" terminal. One to the DUI and the second from the purple ignition wire through the fusible link or without the fusible link directly to the "I" terminal.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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The I (ignition) post on the solenoid is meant to be run TO the ignition. Not all marinizers use it (PCM did not). It provides a full 12v to the ign system when cranking, effectively bypassing the ballast resistor.
What it does NOT do is provide ignition voltage to anything with the ignition switch ON. The relay does not have an ignition 12v source. When the engine isn't cranking, there is 0V on that I post. This is not an appropriate place to wire your DUI to. I am not sure if the protec boats use the same 8 pin harness as all the other carb'd boats, but I suspect they might. The ignition source appropriate to run to the DUI will be coming from the purple wire in that harness. The same wire is likely wired to the carb choke, as well as other protec inputs, I'm sure. |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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I think they just added an internal relay to the high torque starters. This relay is now just switching the control line and voltage to the "I" terminal rather than the battery voltage. And thanks. |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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I agree with the notes on the diagram although it's different than the PCM schematic. The schematic must be for the pre-92 starters. But I don't see your statement anywhere. Did you copy it from somewhere else? Anyway, I think you are saying that your "I" terminal only has one wire attached to it and that goes to the DUI. If that's the case I definitely don't understand how it's working. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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Maybe I don't know the 92+ well enough but that picture doesn't make sense to me. how can the battery and the starter be on the same post?
*and also I edited the thread title. can no longer look at it like that.... |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2863 |
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Sean: We may be saying the same thing, but with different words... The "I" Terminal is also referred to as the ignition or coil terminal as it provides 12V when the key is in the "run" or "start" position. Take a look at the picture from NP: The "I" terminal is designated for coil or EMS computer. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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There is nothing wrong with JQ's setup especially if there is loss in the old 12.5 breaker it's just slightly different than stock.
JQ, After thinking about this we are just using different terminology. When I say the terminal is hot I mean that if you remove both wires from it and measure the voltage it will only be there when the relay is closed. I think you are saying there is always voltage there so it is hot. With the key on the voltage is always there but when the engine is running it's coming from one of the wires attached to the terminal not from the terminal itself. If you remove the wire coming from the engine harness your engine will still start but it won't run. |
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malcolm2
Senior Member Joined: June-13-2010 Location: Nashville Status: Offline Points: 235 |
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I thought that is where you were going with your post yesterday. But when I first put the meter on the relay posts, I got 11+ on the "I" post with the key ON and less with the key at start. So Jonny Quest's set up made sense to me. I have yet to get everything hooked back up, but plan on checking your description. I thought maybe the "I" would get 12v+ from the Alt. I will report back with voltages once I get all hooked up. Need to call my rebuilder |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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The "I" terminal is only hot when the key is in the start position. There is only one control line going to the starter relay. When the key is in the start position the "s" terminal is hot and the relay is closed. When the key goes to the run position the "s" terminal is cold and the relay is open. The "I" terminal is used to fire the ignition. After the engine is running the voltage comes from the key to point 41 on the schematic. That's when the dash wiring/ harness connections and their associated IR drops come into play. I think the boats after '92 have improved dash wiring for the ignition circuit so you should be fine. I was just wondering if you still had the original fusible link (assuming you had one) protecting your wiring harness from burning up and your boat catching on fire if there is a short in harness/dash when you turn the key to start. Slight exaggeration but I think that's why it's there but I could be wrong.
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2863 |
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Sean:
The "I" terminal is set-up with the ignition switch. When the ignition is in the run or start position, the "I" terminal is hot. Turn key of off and the terminal goes dark. I believe that is the from-the-factory configuration. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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How did you connect the key (engine running) voltage to the "I" terminal? |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2863 |
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My 1994 was a Throttle-Body Injection and Pro-Tech setup. It came with 3 breakers: 50 amp, 15 amp and 12.5 amp. When I removed all the related TBI and Pro-Tech gear, I could see that I no longer needed the 15 or 12.5 amp breakers. However, I did like the idea of a fuse or fusible link between the "I" terminal on the starter switch /solenoid and my new DUI unit. So, I ran a 12 gauge wire with an in-line ATO 20 amp fuse from the "I" terminal to the DUI. I went with a new "heavy duty" starter switch from NP. At the DUI distributor, I'm getting 11.3 to 11.5 volts. I liked this set-up as I didn't want to use any old Pro-Tech wiring or harness gear. The engine fired right up and hasn't missed a beat in 100 hours since install. JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Here's a photo of the install. That hose is close, but it didn't interfere with my DUI. It has at least 1/4" clearance, perhaps up to 3/8". Does yours ride hard on that hose?
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Correction - I did test the voltage when i was doing the installation. I remember this now. Forgive me as I'm fighting a cold and drugged up on cold meds.
I ran out to the garage just now and without the engine running I get 11.9 at the relay and 10.9 at the wire going into the DUI. I have a lot more clearance than you on that t-stat hose. No issues there at all. Like JP, I thought this was a pretty simple install. Put it in and it worked great right out of the box. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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I've not tested the voltage at all. It ran fine so I never had a reason to do so. I could do some checks for you when I crank it up in the driveway this weekend to do the winterization? I followed the DUI instructions from JPASS for my install, so I am pulling voltage from that "P" wire too. Everything else is stock. Maybe I'm a lucky one with no mystery voltage problems. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1114 |
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It looks like the fusible link is there to disconnect the ignition circuit from the starting circuit if a short occurs when the starter is engaged. If you connect your DUI wire to "I" instead of 26 you would need to either leave the connection at 41/42 on the breaker or connect them together and remove the breaker. I don't think I would remove the fusible link unless you replace it with a fuse. If you connect the DUI to "I" and leave the fusible link (or a fuse) and 41/42 connection then you have removed the fusible link from the starting circuit but you have added it to the running circuit. With the original wiring there is no current flowing through the fusible link when the key is in the run position only in the start position.
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malcolm2
Senior Member Joined: June-13-2010 Location: Nashville Status: Offline Points: 235 |
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Clarification: I have been calling the power wire the "P" wire, cause that is where it USED to go. To the "P" on the EMS connector. To be clear that connector is gone and so is the trigger plug. so this "P" wire is really wire #26 coming off of the 12.5 amp breaker.
I am thinking that I might take a few more measurements and maybe take the 12.5 amp breaker out of this. The new wiring would come from the "I" terminal of the NEW relay. (on the left of the relay pictured below) This new wire can have a built in water-proof fuse and go to the power connection of the DUI. IIRC Jonny Quest made that suggestion to me. Seems like that path might have less resistance and 23 year old fusible links and breakers in it. Won't hurt to measure and see. I can choose the path with the best voltage to the DUI. |
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