Engine Surge at WOT |
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Well I checked out the cap and its looks pretty clean underneath, however the rotor mechanisms look a little rough or used. Should I take some emery cloth and rub under the cap and anywhere else? One thing I did not mention before is when I was adjusting the pickup to the fins on the top of distributor, I had to bump the key to get the fins aligned with the pick up. When doing so, there was some sparking or arcing coming from the coil area. I cant really say where, I just heard a sparking noise. Turned key again, and it looked like it was from the bracket holding the coil in place. I turned the key a few times after and it didnt do it again. If I do go with a new coil, MSD has a couple options and would like to know which one is the correct one for my application. My coil says use with external resistor, I do not know what this is, should I replace cap also while I'm at it? Here are the two I am looking at. Hopefully one of these is the right choice, If not, what should I go with. Thanks again
MSD Ignition 8223 - MSD Blaster Coil Details Blaster 3 Coils Coil Specs: Turns ratio: 100:1 Primary resistance: .7 OHMs Secondary resistance: 4.5K OHMs Inductance: 8 mH Maximum voltage: 45,000 Volts (Tested with 6AL Ignition) Peak current: 140 mA Spark duration: 350 uS Features: Extra tall secondary tower for secure coil wire connection Improved output coil for electronic ignitions, and MSD Ignitions (ballast resistor required for points) 100:1 turns ratio and lower primary resistance produce high voltage output MSD Red metal canister is filled with a premium grade oil for cooling Supplied with a 90° spark plug style terminal and boot CARB E.O. Approved or High-Vibration Blaster Coils In applications such as off-road, marine or other harsh conditions, the MSD Blaster High Vibration Coil is the best choice. The sturdy metal housing of the High Vibration Coil is completely potted with a premium grade epoxy to completely encase the coil's primary and secondary windings. This protects the coil's internal components from high and low frequency vibrations that are commonly experienced in racing. Coil Specs: Turns ratio: 100:1 Primary resistance: .7 OHMs Secondary resistance: 4.5K OHMs Inductance: 8 mH Maximum voltage: 45,000 Volts (Tested with 6AL Ignition) Peak current: 140 mA Spark duration: 350 uS Features: Improved output coil for electronic, Point, Blaster or MSD 5, 6, and 7 Series Ignitions (ballast resistor required for points) Alkyd tower with high dielectric properties is less prone to carbon tracking 100:1 turns ratio and lower primary resistance produce high voltage output Metal canister is encased with epoxy to protect the windings from high vibration applications 50 State Legal CARB Legal for OBDII 2003 or Older E.O. D-40-37 Anyway, here a few pics. |
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levin
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echobravoecho
Groupie Joined: March-14-2011 Location: Kansas City, KS Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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That looks like a low time cap and rotor. No visible black soot, the rotor looks slightly discolored on the leading edge, but still it's all good. Unless there is a crack in the cap somewhere that allows the arc to leak out and ground against some near by metal, the cap and rotor don't look like the problem. Which leaves the plug wires and the coil. The only difference between the two coils is that one is filled with oil and the other filled with epoxy, and the blaster three has a funky lengthened secondary tower that might pose an installation problem. Get the epoxy filled.
Ballast resister reduces 12V dc to approx 7V dc, the new MSD coils don't need them unless you have points, and you don't have points. Arcing from the coil area is a good indication that some of the internal coil wiring has come in contact with the external case, and this is a good indication that your coil is failing. Since it's dark out you could run the spark/light test this evening as mentioned earlier. Take the engine cover off, mist the engine with the garden hose to promote conductivity, and fire up the engine. Stand back and see if you can visually identify and/or hear any snap, crackle or pop, either from the coil, the distributor, or the plug wires. All of the electrical energy should be contained inside the coil, wires and distributor, any leakage will be visible/audible and also show you where the breakdown in the insulation is occurring. (misting the engine with water encourages the high energy of the spark system to short to ground by providing a lower resistance that dry air.) Safety says not to grab the coil, cap, or wires when the engine is running, although I've heard a few stories to the contrary back in the day. If you just look at the cut out symptoms, the coil is working good enough to let the engine start and run up to a certain heat level and RPM, after which the internal problems introduce enough hysteresis to prevent the magnetic field from rebuilding fast enough to produce enough energy when the breaker opens. Ed |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Levin - I have the same Prestolite EI as you, using the High Vibe coil without resistor. Has worked good for 4+ years.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Thanks for the replies, I'll go with the high vibration coil and I was thinking of ordering the tune-up kit to replace the rotor and cap while I'm in there, also replace the wires and plugs. Anything else I should do, or just pop out the old coil and replace? No other parts needed when replacing the coil? Thanks again and we'll see what happens. Wont be able to hit the water for a week or so, but I'll update when I give her a test run.
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levin
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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Could be that the body/case of the coil is breaking down allowing spark to leak to the engine block. I saw that happen with a VW one time. |
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Thought I'd ask one more question before I take the boat out for a test run this weekend. I purchased and installed the MSD High Vibration coil and plan putting some new plugs and wires on. My question is do I stick with the 8mm plug wires that are on it now, or should I get 8.5-9.5mm wires? Figure I'd replace the wires and plugs since I was at it. Courious as to what you guys would reccomend. Thanks
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levin
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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I got 8mm for mine. At the time, they were colored yellow (still are on my boat). The same kit on Nautiqueparts is black now. It looks like skidim has an upgraded low resistance 8mm set in blue.
8 is already an upgrade from the 7. Not sure if you'd need to step it up further than that. Maybe for an upgraded ignition or something. |
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echobravoecho
Groupie Joined: March-14-2011 Location: Kansas City, KS Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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I don't think it really matters for the plug wires, a good set of 8's will do the job as well as the 8.5's or 9.5's, and I'd imagine that a set of MSD 8.5 mm wires to match the coil would be great. That coil is rated at 45K Volts, 8mm or 8.5 can handle it no problem. With the additional coil voltage, you might get a better spark with some platinum plugs gapped a little wider to take advantage of the increased energy produced.
I say might because after you bump up the performance of the coil, wires and plugs, the weak link becomes the distributor cap and rotor. Your old coil was probably producing about 30K volts, the new one 45K volts. Your existing cap and rotor should handle the increased energy no problem, but again, if, after doing the upgrades, you still get a miss, check the underside of the distributor cap and rotor for signs of arcing. Let us know how it goes this weekend. Ed |
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Thanks for the replies guys, Do you think my wires are fine, they are PCM wires only three years old and what plugs and gap would you reccomend running? Hopefully wires are ok for now and Ill hit napa for some plugs. Thanks again for the help, Ill let you know how she runs this weekend
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levin
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echobravoecho
Groupie Joined: March-14-2011 Location: Kansas City, KS Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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Nothing wrong with a set of Autolite 24's or their equivalent. The gap is .035. I run NGK plugs on my '94 351, opened the gap to .045. Runs fine with the DUI HEI ignition I put on it, (50KV at the cap) No real reason for the NGK's. Pull the old plugs out before you go to the auto parts store. Compare them to these pictures on this page: http://www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html or one of the dozens of other sites, and make heat range adjustments accordingly, if required, otherwise, get the same plugs. If they look good enough, don't bother replacing them. Ed |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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As long as the wires are good (and have no spots where the insulation has worn through) 3 years isn't that old.
These are kind of nice to have, as they help keep the wires off stuff that is hot and/or rotates: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-9-28150/overview/ You could make use of two sets. |
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echobravoecho
Groupie Joined: March-14-2011 Location: Kansas City, KS Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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Agreed on the plug wires, they look pristine from the photo.
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Thanks again for he input guys, Ill pull the plugs tomorrow after work and see how they are, I'll keep you informed on how the weekend goes
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levin
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Alright Brian and Ed, I think my surging issue is finally solved! It must of been the coil. I made few long slalom passes with no issues and then made a handfull of barefoot runs at WOT with no problems, and the footing runs were for a long time, I just held on for the entire length of the lake, sitting down a couple times to give my feet a break. I feel pretty relieved to finally have this fixed, I was getting really frustrated. Thanks again to the both of you for steering me in the right direction with this. Hopefully we'll have a couple more decent weekends of weather here to get back out.
Mark |
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levin
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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That's good to hear. And, it sounds like most of the other items that were checked/adjusted/replaced along the way were maintenance items anyway. Glad you got it solved
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Well guys I'm back again on this darn thread with issues all of a sudden, again. I thought I had nipped this problem in the butt, but she acted up on me this afternoon. When I was pulling my friend slalom at around 34-35mph, the engine would bog down/cut out every time he would load the line to cross the wake. He is a larger person so he definetly puts a load on the boat when crossing. The bogging down only occurred when he would load the line, otherwise it would catch up and run as he would make his turn, and the would bog down again. I'm lost as to what to look for now. Could this be carb/fuel related? Thanks for the help guys. This is getting very frustrating as you could imagine.
Mark |
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levin
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I would find a valid test procedure before changing any parts. Maybe towing another boat would provide the load to make it act up. Then you can be sure that you definitely fixed it.
My guess is weak spark. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Thanks Chris, can you give me a little direction on how to check if I'm getting good spark when the boat is under a load. I'm no mechanic but can usually figure things out and have access to all the goodies to test anything. Appreciate the help.
Mark |
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levin
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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echobravoecho
Groupie Joined: March-14-2011 Location: Kansas City, KS Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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I'd say electrical again. Same drill as before, check for physical evidence of the spark energy finding a lower resistance path to ground than thru the spark plugs.
Can you get it to bog down for a few moments then shut it down and pull the plugs? The plug that is sooty and black would tell you which plug/wire combo is acting up. On the other hand, buying one of those ignition wire testers would be easier and something you could do in the driveway to check for a cracked plug wire. You could then pull that plug to have a look. Of course the new coil you bought last year could be bad, or the wire connectors need to be dressed and cleaned up, especially the ground wires, both on the engine block ( I think there are two) and on the ground wires themselves, where they are attached to the ground block. How about retarding the timing slightly? That might help clear the problem. After that, I'd get a vacuum gauge and start troubleshooting the engine basics, like shown here: http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm There might be weak springs or crusty valves that is lowering the compression of one cylinder and causing the miss under higher manifold pressure differential. Good luck, hope it's a wire or cable, and not the engine. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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Do you have any play in the distributor? Like if you take the cap off and try and wobble the shaft by holding the rotor, is there much movement there?
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Thanks for the info guys. Been a busy day and will try to get to it tomorrow night. I'll clean up all my connections and pull the cap and see if there is any play in the distributor and get a tester. Thanks for getting a plan together to trouble shoot this thing. Ill be in touch when I get to it and let you guys know what I find.
Mark |
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levin
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boardersdad
Senior Member Joined: June-18-2013 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 409 |
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Not sure if anyone mentioned the choke. I was reading the manual on the Holley 4160 on our 84 SN2001, and it says to make sure the electric choke is attached to the basic 12V system and not to the ignition or coil, which would reduce voltage and not open the choke completely and also impair ignition firing efficiency.
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Just a quick update, pulled cap off and there is no movement of the distributor shaft. I plan on taking some emery clothe and cleaning up all the connections, and getting one of those inline ignition testees and seeing what happens. As far as choke wiring, the wires run into a big bundle of wires, i dont think it is wired to the coil
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levin
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Another long shot - is the flame arrestor clean? If it is clogged up, it could restrict airflow.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4945 |
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Check also to make sure the choke plate slowly opens full when the key is turned on. Or, at least when the engine is running (the engine may need to be running to open it all the way).
If it's not opening fully, that could restrict airflow as well. |
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GottaSki
Grand Poobah Joined: April-21-2005 Location: NE CT Status: Offline Points: 3327 |
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I believe you still have a fuel flow issue, not electrical.
Recommend diassembling the tank's dip tube and fittings. |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Pretty soon we will have your boat in 500 separate pcs!
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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levinmark
Senior Member Joined: November-11-2010 Location: illinois Status: Offline Points: 375 |
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Hey, whatever it takes to fix this dang issue! Ill check the choke plate and see what happens when I turn the key. Plan on headn to the quarry tomorrow after work, Ill be in touch with my findings. Thanks again for the guidance fellas!
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levin
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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This is definitely a problem. If you have no movement, you're not getting any ignition advance. That has to be freed up before you do anything else. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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