Windsor or Cleveland |
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mjgha
Newbie Joined: June-02-2018 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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Posted: July-13-2018 at 10:44am |
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Hello,
Can anyone tell me if my boat engine is a 351 Windsor or Cleveland what exactly the difference is? I have a SN CC 95 with a PCM gt-40 5.8 EFI. Hope this is enough info. Thanks, Ethan |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10696 |
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Short, simple answer It's a Windsor.
You gave enough info You can google Windsor vs Cleveland and you'll get plenty of info on the differences |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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From what I understand no marinizer ever used a Cleveland yet 25% of the boats listed online are Cleveland’s and good luck convincing otherwise. Even in the automotive world Cleveland’s are very rare and that reduced in a rather small time frame.
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1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
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rebel skier
Gold Member Joined: October-17-2014 Location: Middle Tenn Status: Offline Points: 771 |
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There a boat for sale on our site that is a Celvor which is supposedly a combination of the two:
SN2001 with a Celvor block |
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Hotty Toddy lets go skiing!
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21122 |
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Commander marinized a Clevor around that timeframe but that 86 does not have one. There was a mid 80’s American Skier that popped up in the last year that did. If you do a google image search for a commander Clevor, you’ll find some mid-late 80’s waterski ads.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10696 |
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Clevors are rare but there are some out there.
Celvors are ..........................well you know |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Back when we played around with those engines, it was my understanding that the base engines were built in Australia. They were found to be unsuitable for CC's applications.
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"Art"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Art, Do you remember why? |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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As best I recall, the biggest problem was oil consumption. I wasn't direct involved, but I understood that on those engines, the valves could not be located directly in line with the cam lobes and lifters, so the push rods were at a slight angle. That apparently caused the rockers to put some side thrust on the valves, and the valve guides would wear prematurely. Apparently the engines were Cleveland blocks with Windsor heads on them, or maybe the reverse of that Sometimes I get those experiments confused with our experiments with the Triton engine when the 351W was on its way out. We had a couple of catastrophic failures with those at sustained high RPM. (PCM did all of the marinization work in both cases) |
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"Art"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Thanks Art. It's always great to hear some CC history.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I can see using them in something like a Donzi where high output at high rpm is desired but for a ski tug where torque is desired why bother -the Windsor fit the bill already.
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 888 |
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A very technical, scientific way to identify is the valve covers.....Windsors use 6 bolts, while Clevelands use 8.
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1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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I have been told that another way is that the two fuel pump mounting bolts are vertical to each other on the Cleve and horizontal on the Win. Do you know whether that is so? |
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"Art"
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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The water outlet at the intake is like that Art maybe that’s what your thinking.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10696 |
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Or maybe he's thinking fuel pumps
Here's a351C or M fuel pump link The Clevor takes a 351W fuel pump though |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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You probably have it correct. American Ford stopped producing the 351c sometime in the mid 70's so the Australian Ford manufacturer was the the only one producing them for a while. I don't remember when they stopped building them, but if memory serves they used smaller valve heads, which is why they weren't very popular here since you'd have to swap heads to get decent flow and thus, power. Everyone always said that the Windsor had a stronger bottom end anyway so if you had to start swapping parts, why not just start with the readily available Windsor. I had an old classic Mustang back in the day - my first hot rodding experience (didn't keep it all original either) |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21122 |
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Wat
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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The Clevor engine IE: Windsor block with Cleveland heads. The primary reason was the larger valves in the Cleveland heads. The Australian "Cleveland" heads were a completely different head made for the aftermarket.
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Interesting read Pete ... When was it that these first came out? Don't recall ever hearing about them. Of course the Mustang was the last Ford I owned till I bought my first diesel P/U in the mid-late 80's and by then the hot rodding days were long since over (wife, kids, work ....)
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Joe, I don't know! With all the talk about the Clevor,I simply went searching for the info. I like you found it an interesting read. |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Yeah, google. So many years without all the information you ever wanted to know about anything .... And now it's a wonder we ever got along without it.
Anyway, after reading about the Clevor I decided to google Ausie Cleveland's and discovered they did in fact make a larger valve version. It was the first year or two they only had the small valve heads and offered both small and large thereafter. Funny though, I had always heard that the Cleveland was more of a big block vs the small block Windsor. I guess it wasn't technically a big block, just a bigger block than the Windsors. But yes Ethan as was stated before, the GT40 is a Windsor engine and from recent research, not much will swap from a Cleveland to a Windsor so when looking for parts, make sure they are Windsor. BTW - Welcome to the forum! How about some pics of your boat?? |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Definitely talking fuel pumps. The link that Keno posted shows exactly what I referred to. The bolts are one above the other. |
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"Art"
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ArtCozier
Platinum Member Joined: April-25-2012 Location: Orlando FL Status: Offline Points: 1023 |
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Definitely talking fuel pump. The link that Keno posted shows it clearly. |
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"Art"
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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