De-winterizing startup trouble |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10745 |
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Here's a question for Optima Jim
For years certain people here on CCF have said how bad it is to use a deep cycle battery as a starting battery and how it's gonna destroy your solenoid and or starter with no good explanation. You touched on this issue a few years ago in an old post but could you provide an explanation of why or why not this statement is true or false? In other words why does the starter or solenoid care where the DC voltage is coming from? Feel free to have someone in your engineering department give an answer.if needed. And for the rest of us ................unless you think you know more than their engineering department, or you know more about batteries than they do, let them give an answer Kinda like an episode of Mythbusters Thanks in advance Jim KenO |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3610 |
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Jim, I understand Optima is now owned by JCI, Johnson Controls. I know this company and they supply batteries to many New Cars as they are built.
JCI is also ahead of the curve with the AGM technology in batteries. JCI uses superior battery case technology holding the lead plates in place which should help in a Marine environment over time. Has JCI changed the Optima brand? Thanks Mark |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 943 |
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Good questions, good thoughts. What say you Jim? I'd kinda like to know the answer to those, since I'll be buying a new battery (mainly for cranking) as soon as I get my engine installed next week.
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Just went out today and got my 95 going. Sitting 7 months,last years fuel with marine stabilizer,primed the pumps turned off the key and did it again and then tried to start. Engine at the most turned over twice and was running. Love these FI motors. I'm using this Optima since '14,it and the one out of the Mustang bought in '13 do make the trip to Florida to run the Shamrock for it's season.When not being used it's on a maintainer. My only complaint is to watch the manufacturing date,the Mustangs was on the shelf at Advance for a year which I did not catch when I bought it. The Nautique one was from Farm and Fleet and was a month old.
Mustangs- |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Got another clip to post. Same story. No charger on it this time, in the lake. Fired off crappy enough to piss my kid off.
slow_start |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Yea, well even on a brand new battery for the season, If I left the boat for 3 weeks (actual 3 weeks), it wouldn't have the power to start. Say what you want, but that's crap in my book. I charged the battery, disconnected the terminals at the end of last season. And it was still dead as a door knob this spring. No, I didn't bring it inside for the winter, but I live in Texas, not Canada. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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In all due respect your starter looks like a mess,I imagine it must be just as crusty inside. You need to remove and clean all your connections and either have your starter serviced or replaced. Corroded connections will use more amperage when starting. If you look on line you can get an Arco 70200 replacement for around 125.00. You should also buy a battery maintainer,I have a bunch of Schumacher XM1-5's,they are around 30 bucks and keep them on when not in use. Batteries don't like to sit, maybe OptimaJim will prove me wrong but I have heard AGM battries like it even less,that is one reason I haul them 3k miles a year
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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Thanks for quoting the entire post I almost missed it...
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Peter,
A battery going dead after 3 weeks sure indicates there's something draining it and not the type or brand of the battery. Run a parasitic load test. There are plenty of you tube videos on the procedure if you've never done one. You never answered:
Then regarding your ring terminal on the battery:
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Peter, I agree with Gary especially after watching your latest video.
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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I bought the boat with a dirty engine bay, and it's on my long list of things to take care of. My bad. However, I don't see the correlation between how an outside appearance of a part is of any indication of how the internals will or could look. I did clean up the starter connections and replaced the two nuts yesterday.
Pete, sorry forgot to mention that. I took off all the battery connections and sanded, wire brushed an used some acid cleaner for places I couldn't get to. The inline fuse was severely corroded over (50a), but I'm thinking that's just for the amplifier that was added. I don't believe an inline fuse to the main engine line. I inspected the crimp connections and believe they're fine. They're snug and looks like they were also soldered. The sounds I"m hearing go past normal starter struggling. In my opinion, something is on it's way out. I'm just trying to figure out what that is so I can replace it. Sounds like the starter is the the most likely guilty cause? Is it pretty easy to unbolt it and lift it right out of the engine bay? Looks like a pretty tight fit. Thanks for the help everyone, really. I had a long day yesterday replacing all the bunks on my trailer (8 plus the nose and 2 fenders) and slightly irritable this morning, lol. Thanks again. |
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Corrosion on the solenoid and connections often correlate to a wet bilge or even high water that may mean a submerged starter. That’s going to make for all kinds of starter trouble. Not saying that’s your situation but there’s a direct correlation.
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flyweed
Gold Member Joined: July-11-2016 Location: WI Status: Offline Points: 539 |
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Shouse, I don't know if I am reading your last post correctly, but the 50amp IS your main boat fuse...NOT for "just" an amplifier. Connections to it, as well as at your battery, your grounds, starter, etc need to be clean as a whistle. From watching your video, there certainly isn't enough power going to your starter, and the starter is dragging, which is what I equate that little bit of "raspy" sound to be. I HIGHLY suggest a "Cranking" battery with at least 750CCA's. I have a 800 CCA battery in my Nautique, and it had been sitting in winter storage since late October until May 1st. I hooked up battery, put the hose on, and one quick turn of the key my engine fired right up and sat their purring like a kitten. Make sure you have a good battery, clean connections on everything. and then try it
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'93 Ski Nautique NWZ, Air Boom Tower
Drink Tonight..for tomorrow We Ride! |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4244 |
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In an earlier post you said yourself that you were surprised to see the corrosion on the starter terminals, when I look at that starter and connections it appears to live in a very humid environment and/or maybe getting wet with a wet bilge. Definitely change out the starter, there is every reason to believe that is the primary problem given you've cleaned up all connections and are still cranking slow.
When you say after 3 weeks your battery lacks power to start, how do you leave the ignition breaker, is it on so the bilge pumps are cycling for all that time? On my boat I can leave it that long if needed, but if you are draining your battery fully you either have a questionable battery or a constant drain. |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4244 |
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OptimaJim, your input is very much appreciated. Please follow up on your post, its great that you cleared up some details about the Optima's but it leads to some follow up questions and would be helpful to hear your comments.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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OptimaJim
Newbie Joined: April-01-2011 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Hi KenO,
Before I turn into Bob Smykowski from Office Space and go communicate with the engineers, I think it would be helpful if I understood how you define a deep-cycle battery and if you had specific examples. Hi Mark, JCI has owned and operated the Optima brand for nearly 20 years and there have been a lot of advancements in technology during that time. As a result, when we've had opportunities to improve our production process, increase consistency, performance, etc... we've taken advantage of those opportunities and will continue to do so, as all quality manufacturers do. Gary S, I'm glad to hear your batteries are performing well for you. While it's not typical to see batteries remain in inventory longer than a few months, when it does happen, it tends to happen more with BlueTops, as they tend to have more seasonal demand. Retailers and distributors do have a standard protocol in place for maintaining batteries while in inventory, but if your battery was beyond 12 months from it's production date, it should've been pulled. The warranty starts the day you buy it, regardless of production date and it doesn't appear to have been an issue for you, but we'd like to make sure our retailers stay on top of those things and I will share your experience with the appropriate folks on our end. AGM batteries actually perform better in abusive applications, including extended period of non-use, than their flooded counterparts. However, regular use of a quality battery maintenance device goes a long way in extending battery life and maximizing performance. shouse, if a vehicle has a large enough parasitic draw, it can completely discharge a fully-charged battery in a matter of days. As more aftermarket electrical accessories are added to an application, the chances that one of them is drawing on the battery increases significantly. Have you measured the draw in your boat yet and if so, what was it? If it's possible that something like the bilge pump may come on intermittently, an easy way to see if there's an issue with the battery is to fully-charge and completely disconnect it while the boat sits for several days. If it holds voltage while disconnected, but drops voltage while connected, there is likely to be an electrical issue unrelated to your battery that is causing the discharge. If your battery can't hold voltage for a few days or even a few weeks while completely disconnected, then there is likely to be an issue with the battery. Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10745 |
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Hi Bob .....er I mean Jim excellent movie by the way
I'm not one of the ones who preaches about not using deep cycle batteries so whatever your engineers can tell us about using deep cycle batteries either the dual purpose or strictly deep cycle as a starting battery would be good. I'm just curious The statement is always that "it will destroy your solenoid and/or starter so you'd better get a regular starting battery and ditch that deep cycle" My question would be "is that true and why or why not?" Thanks |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Low voltage causing a higher amp draw causes start relays to fail/weld contacts together the same as using a weak battery. Ken, Who are you quoting? I'm finding that manufactureres of deeps recommend using a deep that has 20% more CCA than the equal starting. Many of us can't fit the next case size in their battery box. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10745 |
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A number of people over the years including you I can see both sides of the argument and want to hear what their battery engineers have to say. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I too am looking forward to what the technical guys at Optima have to say. "including me" well, you may want to look back at what I have said. It wasn't exactly what you have quoted. Trying to throw me under the bus again I see!! |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4244 |
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I looked back, Pete's exact quote was: "Only a complete moron, most likely from a climate that has more than 5 weeks of summer, would use a completely inappropriate deep cycle battery as a starting battery in a boat. It is well known that deep cycle batteries cause shaft misalignment." |
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5696 |
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Well you guys cursed me, sure enough my D34M failed miserably last night - of course it is from 2012 and I was trying to revive it after leaving the pump on for a week and a half and discharging it down to basically nuthin (could still hear the pump humming when I got in the boat a week and a half later but it wasn't turning). I was able to get it back up to 14.4 volts after a few days on a smart charger at low amperage but turn the key and she just wouldn't give up the current.
I really babied that battery too, just a small stereo played sparingly on a rarely used and well maintained boat Except the part where all of that last statement is the opposite of reality. My boat generally is set up for Dual D34Ms but I smoked this ones mate 2 years ago when I direct shorted it with some 1/0 gauge cables, I didn't want to pair this one with a new one so it has been on its own for a couple years and still would give me a good hour of stereo usage before I would get nervous and start the engine for a bit. If Optima Jim wants to give me a good discount on a couple replacements - I would be happy to slap a couple optima stickers on my tower speakers. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6149 |
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I just lost my starting battery this spring. It was a little low this spring so I put it on the smart charger for a bit. I also gave it a mid winter smart charge. Strangely it is the only battery I've ever maintained and it is my shortest length of use at 4 seasons until it died.
The fresh battery I just installed cranks faster than this one had over the last two seasons and the new battery has less CCA. I think this battery must have lost a cell or two a few years back but kept a charge just fine. It failed when we were 10 miles or so away from home just shutting off after a 20 minute drive. Went to restart and nothing, We died in the back of a finger where a gator was spotted the day before by the dock we were on woo. |
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OptimaJim
Newbie Joined: April-01-2011 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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I appreciate your patience guys and hopefully, I'll have some answers that will make sense. I've had this question come up before and our engineering group's consistent response starts with asking what kind of a battery someone believes is a deep-cycle battery, as the vast majority of batteries that would show up in automotive or marine applications (at least most boats that can be towed behind your vehicle) are not true “deep-cycle” batteries, like those found in stand-alone power systems. The "deep-cycle" batteries most folks use are like our YellowTops or BlueTops with light-gray cases, that are designed for starting vehicles, but can also handle being deeply-discharged with trolling motors or other electrical accessories.
The standard line is that as long as these batteries meet or exceed the OE requirements for cranking amps or marine cranking amps (CCA isn't really used much in marine), the battery will have no negative impact on the starter, alternator or anything else. The caveat to that is that the rated cranking amps on the label may not come out of the battery, if it isn't fully-charged, which is a very common issue in vehicles (and vessels) that only see occasional and/or seasonal use. I wanted to cover off on this question from the other parts of the electrical triangle, as my friend, John, at Powermaster Performance likes to call it, so I called him with the same question. He is a great resource on all things related to starters and alternators and has a very capable crew on staff, who has forgotten more about that stuff than most folks will ever know. John's team echoed our guys in respect to hardly anyone using real deep-cycle batteries in these applications, but also noted that solenoids are voltage sensitive. When they receive less than 11 volts, things start to go bad and he noted it's a huge problem with street rod guys, who hardly ever take their cars out and don't properly-maintain their batteries in between use. In marine applications, he regularly tells customers volt meters are their friends and they should be looking for at least 12.6 volts (our BlueTops with light-gray cases are fully-charged at ~13.0-13.2V). When his marine customers have issues, they find their issues are primarily traced back to three typical issues- eyelets too large, leading to poor connections, crimped eyelets leading to poor connections and cable that is too small. With wires running to and from starters, alternators and batteries, there are plenty of opportunities to have issues in multiple locations. If the battery can't make it to at least 12.6 volts or drops really low when starting, then there could also be an issue with the battery. John is also a big advocate for gear reduction starters, because they can provide more torque for high-compression engines and engines that are hard to start in general. I hope that answers your question. Jim McIlvaine eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries Learn more about Powermaster's stuff here- http://powermastermotorsports.com/ |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Ooof. tryathlete jogged my memory. My boat cover failed over the winter during one of our week long rains while i was out of town. I drained WAY more out of the boat than i expected when i got back. It's very possible the starter suffered from water damage. I just lost of the channels of my amplifier too, so i'm noticing this self-destructing trend here. I've already ordered a new cover and making new arrangements for storing the boat. This is costing me too much money.
I'm going to pull the start tonight and see what i'm dealing with. I'm still skeptical of the battery. I've had a trickle charger on it for 3 days and it's still reading it as 'charging' and not 'storage'. The battery is approximately 10 months old. To answer a few of the other questions, The only fuse i found is on the amplifier power, positive. I can't find where the 50a main line fuse would be. Maybe I"m just not looking in the right spot? It's also possible when I drained the battery down in 3 weeks that I didn't bring it back fully charged and left the ignition 'on'. THe bilge pump would have been off however. TOo far back to recall and anyone can speculate. I'm more about the present at this point and just determining if the battery is bad or not. May rip it out and take it down to Oreilys or autozone. Thanks for sticking with me thus far , hoping to have this resolved this weekend. |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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Ok, i'm a disgrace. It's completely trashed. The bilge must have been full of water this winter. I can't believe it even functioned. I had to put a breaker bar on to get the bottom bolt of, no fun.
Assuming this all happened over the winter and not last year or before I bought it. All the gears look fine. I'm sure it could technically be cleaned up and get new brushes, but the thing is pretty wicked. Easily to justify $150 in my book. Moving onto the assumption the bilge was full of water, I can only assume the transmission and any other low hanging parts. Even the flywheel has a large coating of surface rust. No idea how serious of an issue that even is by itself?? Should I try and clean it? What would your recommendation of where you'd go from here? I've already changed the engine oil and tranny oil. BTW, the trickle charger on the battery finally showed flashing green, which means at least 80% charged. After 3 days. Rusty flywheel. Should i be concerned? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Just get a new starter,clean your connections and go boating.
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tryathlete
Platinum Member Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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That’s all u gotta do |
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shouse
Newbie Joined: July-16-2015 Location: Fort Worth TX Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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10-4. Thanks everyone. Already missing this weekend because of this mess and will be out of town the weekend after that. Already hitting 100s down here in Texas. It's gonna be a looooong summer.
Still cleans up pretty good. |
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