(Cracked Block) - Sudden Milky Oil - 351w |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Posted: May-01-2015 at 9:37pm |
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x - 2 what Joe said after using the block the only thing from that picture that didn't go to the srap yard is the cam and roller lifters and not sure why I kept the cam. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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I agree with the above post and keep in mind the rollers always have a nice arc to the top, the roller stays in contact with the cam lobe. A flat tappet cam with the sharp top might launch the roller wheel as it tops the cam lobe and end up pounding the wheel into submission. Roller profile camshafts do hang the valve fully open longer at the exact same lift giving more intake and exhaust ability with the same total lift so they have more power across the RPM range, broader torque curve, not more total HP but more power from idle to wide open given the exact same lift and duration cam profile.
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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A lot more to it than that. The flat tappet cam lobe is ground at a slight angle so the pressure from the tappets keep the cam pushed toward the back of the block and prevent the cam from "walking" forward into the cam cover. This slight angle also rotates the lifters to keep them from wearing in one spot. This is the reason that when you reuse flat tappets on a cam they have to be put back in the same spot they came from. Each one wears itself to that specific cam lobe. A roller cam is ground perfectly flat so the roller lifter sits nice and square on the lobe and you don't want it to rotate. A roller lifter that rotates would be really bad. This flat grind however can cause the cam to "walk" forward so you have to put a thrust bushing between the cam and the cam cover. That slightly angled lobe on the flat tappet cam would not allow the roller lifter to sit nice and square on the lobe exacerbating the wear that Tim mentioned. Then the roller lifters are significantly taller than flat. This requires a different length pushrod to get your valve train geometry back where it's supposed to be. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Those things are anchors, 90 percent of the parts on them would come free with a good junkyard block. If either has a RH crank with wick lines (a 2 piece rear seal) then you can pull the crank out before you junk them but the rest of the long block parts aren't worth much. Keep any marine accessories/brackets or put them up for sale. Then scrap the rest, soon trust me, I had to move around more engines and hoarded parts than I care to admit this week, my back is killing me. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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Andy, I believe the answer is yes. A flat tappet blank wouldn't survive a meeting with a roller lifter. Different material and treating.
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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OK, I know rollers have steeper ramp angles, are and are made from better material and can stand higher spring pressures. I guess the question is will a roller tipped tappet wear through a cast cam. Roller tappets = less friction = free horse power (except for the up front cost of the tappets) |
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LeftFieldEngineering
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2010 Location: Monson, MA Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Don't get me wrong having my friends brother rebuild it or rebuilding it myself would have most certainly been the cheaper route, however some additional factors have weighted in on my decision.
I may not have admitted it as a teen, but now that I'm in my late 20's I'll concede to the fact my parents typically know more then I do. That being said when they offer to pay for 80% of a re-man unit I'm sure as hell not going to turn it down. On top of that I'd rather have a 3rd party engine builder put it together so when it blows up I'm not forever pissed at my friends brother or myself. Once the long block is assembled, broken in and installed I'll update the '79 Ski Tique Resto-mod Story |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Hey, they even called those holes in the side of the block the correct name!!! " 5.9-liter engine block with a crack below the core plugs" |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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There is a company based in Turlock CA, Lock and stitch is the name I believe.
They have a process to close cracks in blocks that works. It involves drilling small holes in the cracked area tapping the holes and using the Lock and Stitch process to bolt the crack closed. Sounds strange but it works very well. About 20 years back California had a large freeze that broke engine blocks all over the North State. Lock and Stitch was the only process that permanently fixed the cracked blocks with no distortion issues related to trying to weld Cast Iron. Might be worth a check., I was an engine rep for Federal-Mogul, Sealed Power calling on all the Engine Shops on the West Coast some built 1,000 engines per month so I had a lot of exposure when the Freeze hit, Lock and Stitch came out the hero in that Freeze and made a good name for the product. I am sure they have a web site that could be checked to learn more. |
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Smithfamily
Platinum Member Joined: December-26-2007 Location: Orlando, Fl Status: Offline Points: 1602 |
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You'll make it work.
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Js
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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Roller cams are totally different animal than a flat tappet cam. Different metallurgy, different lobe shape. The roller is on the left, flat tappet on the right: |
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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Is there a reason you can't use roller tappets with a flat tappet cam ?
Just cost ? We all use roller rockers to replace the stamped steel rockers. |
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LeftFieldEngineering
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2010 Location: Monson, MA Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Well if one of you guys wants to play around with some motors I have a 351 and 302 (both with bad blocks) that need to find a home.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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Agree with joe.
RH rollers exist, just not in the wild! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Wow, not how I would have gone with it, but I know sometimes you need to just go skiing. Make sure who ever is remanning that long block is going to be around long enough for the warranty to be worth something.
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LeftFieldEngineering
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2010 Location: Monson, MA Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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I had started haggling for these heads before I was aware of the block crack. Just like Tim I like keep piles of spare parts around "just in case". Although they were stock heads, they were recently rebuild and had no more then 20 hours on them. Doesn't much matter, I'm not going to need them now. Instead I'm going to do something I didn't think I would do; sell my boat.. Of course I'm talking about my 66 MirroCraft . Selling the boat + a little shop work should get me enough for a re-man 351w long block, a new damper plate, new water pump and a transmission kit. With any luck I'll have it assembled, broken in and on the water in a few weeks.
Sure hope it works too because I'm selling my only good boat to fix the broken one. |
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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Irrelevant anyway, it's RHR. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Not nessasarrly |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Why heads, I thought it was just the block that was cracked.
What heads are in it now and what is offered in the trade? |
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connorssons
Platinum Member Joined: January-17-2009 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 1414 |
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how much for bar
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21132 |
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I would go with #2. If you're going to put any money into heads, just buy some reman'd gt40p's as they're superior to the stock e7's and will only cost $100 over reworking what you have.
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LeftFieldEngineering
Senior Member Joined: December-20-2010 Location: Monson, MA Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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After calling in every favor I could I manged to scrounge up a few potential blocks. I also called a couple engine shops to see what rebuilds cost these days.
Here are the current options: 1 A.) Pull the head and see if it's fixable. If it is; send to my friends brother to nickle weld the water jacket, install a new head gasket, reinstall the intake and give it another shot. ($200-$400) 1 B.) Same as 1A, but trade some fab work for a set of re-manufactured heads and install them with 2 new head gaskets after the repair. ($300-$600) 2.) Get a parts 351w from a friend, strip & dye check the block, buy a rebuild kit & send it off to my friends brother for a top to bottom rebuild. ($600-$1000) 3.) Send the motor to a local engine builder; new block, rings, pistons, bearings, gaskets, rebuilt heads, returned ready to install, with a 3 week lead time and a 1 year warranty ($3200) 4.) Pick up re-manufactured long block with 2 yr warranty, buy new exhaust manifolds, new damper plate, dye check my intake & swap over the rest of my gear. ($3000) Option 3 and 4 would normally be off the table, however my parents completely shocked me and showed some interested in donating to the cause. Perhaps it was all those years of yard work when I lived at home or maybe they just want unlimited boat rides. Whatever the reason I'm not going to turn it down, every penny gets me one step closer to the lake. As for the rest of the money I'm going to have to get creative. That being said if you happen to know anybody looking for a custom Nautique bar, fabricated parts or CNC plasma signs, you know where to find 'em |
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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Forgot it was a righty, rats.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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and a 95 bronco or f250 is likely to have the roller lifters and spider present, but if he is going back to a RH engine the cam to go with them is something that doesn't exist in the wild
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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94+ 351w blocks are also hydraulic roller ready |
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75 Tique
Grand Poobah Joined: August-12-2004 Location: Seven Lakes, NC Status: Offline Points: 6107 |
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Sorry that happened to you Andy, after all that hard work and how excited you were to get it out on the water. Clearly you have the ability to address it, Hope to see having it out on the water again soon.
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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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www.car-part.com is your friend search for a 95 ish engine for an f150. Don't search engine block cause they wont list just the block, and don't search 83, cause engines that old aren't common and they wont cross to the common ones because they assume you want the newer accessories. I did a quick search and showed a few options around 400 bucks within 50 miles of you. If you tell them you are just going to tear it down for the block they might give you a deal because they don't need to worry about any warranty. With quick cylinder hone and some new rings,.maybe some new bearings if you are feeling rich...
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Smithfamily
Platinum Member Joined: December-26-2007 Location: Orlando, Fl Status: Offline Points: 1602 |
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Sorry to hear that, but I have to say, you don't waste any time moving forward!!
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Js
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