Carb replacement |
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gR@HaM
Platinum Member Joined: May-01-2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1265 |
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Posted: April-08-2015 at 9:51am |
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My current carb (Holley 4160) is without a choke, I guess it was removed at some point by a previous owner. As the boat can take a bit to get started in the cold I decided to look out for a replacement.
I seem to have a bagged a good'n off eBay, well I only paid £50 and it appears to have been looked after. However its a different list number, can anyone tell me whether this is compatible with my PCM 351W and what the differences are between the 2 carbs? Current Holley: E6JL-9510-JB LIST 50419-1 2717 Replacement one: E8JL-9510-CA LIST 50463 0729 PS its good to be back! |
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gR@HaM
Platinum Member Joined: May-01-2012 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1265 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I don't think their open yet Graham, but I'll give Holley a call for you when they are
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gR@HaM
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Gary that would be a massive help, thanks
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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Someone else already did the legwork, got this from a quick Google search:
http://www.shamrockboatownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?24909-Holly-rebuild/page2 50463: 4160, 600 CFM, Ford 351, obsolete, renew kit - 703-29 (the "5" at the beginning means it is an OEM Ford calibration) 50419: 4160, 600 CFM, Ford 351, obsolete, renew kit - 703-29 I believe these have been superseded by the 80319-1, which is what I'm running on my 94 351w. |
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gR@HaM
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Thanks, so if both are the same CFM and designed for the ford 351 Im guessing the 50463 is just a newer version hence the higher list number?
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spiralhelix
Senior Member Joined: August-06-2014 Location: IL/WI Status: Offline Points: 496 |
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Graham, if it helps, I'm running the 50463 (same as your replacement carb) and it runs great! Can't help you on the differences though. Do you know if the replacement has been rebuilt or when?
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Just got off the line from Holley,seems that their records are not as good as they were back a few years. By the list number they used to be able to tell you exactly what engine they were off of,but no more. Pretty much what Brian found, Ford 4160 600 cfm 2.5 power valve,703-29 renew kit. The 50419-1 had 66 primary jetting,the 50463 had 65 primaries,and a 2.5 power valve,same renew kit
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gR@HaM
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Ah great, the news I wanted to hear thanks. I wont bother trying to transfer the choke assembly from my old carb, will just order a rebuild kit for the new one.
This looks to do the job http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/131457148047?nav=SEARCH Gary, big thanks for making the call to Holley!! :) Oh, Im guessing the difference between 66 and 65 primaries is minimal? |
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spiralhelix
Senior Member Joined: August-06-2014 Location: IL/WI Status: Offline Points: 496 |
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When i had my carb rebuilt over the winter, this is one of the things the guy told me:
"If your carb was manufactured prior to 1991, a Holley power valve update should be done." Not knowing much about carbs, yours may have already been updated??? Probably makes no difference, but your electric choke is about 180 deg different to mine. Also sorry to see the rebuilt kits are more expensive over there it's almost double the cost of what i paid. |
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gR@HaM
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One would hope the updated power valve is included in the 703-29 renew kit?
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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Graham, I believe the power valve update he's referring to is the check valve that prevents a backfire from rupturing the diaphragm. It's stock on all the later carbs. It's a simple mod to the baseplate. The actual power valves are the same.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/carburetor_components/power_valves/parts/125-500 Brian |
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spiralhelix
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that could be it. I didn't really question the guy much as he has a great reputation rebuilding carbs. the total cost for this upgrade was only $25, so $15 for the part and $10 for labor sounds about right. i can contact him to get exact details on it if you would like. I can confirm he does good work. engine runs sooo much better this year so far.
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gR@HaM
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I see, thanks
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spiralhelix
Senior Member Joined: August-06-2014 Location: IL/WI Status: Offline Points: 496 |
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i just FB him and he confirmed that check valve is what was done.
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gR@HaM
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Ok thanks shall look at doing the same to mine
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gR@HaM
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Anyone know off the top of their head what colour the wires are that connect to the stat on the choke? Need to find out where the PO cut these off
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spiralhelix
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Ill take a picture of mine in a few hours when i get home, but ground is black and positive is red. both wires came out of the wire group right at the choke and the only wires in that location, so that was a no brainer for me. plus since the choke has opposing connections (one male and one female), that was also a no brainer since my ends were still there.
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gR@HaM
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Im guessing I'll need to hook up to the main loom, if it just needs a feed to switched live and earth should be easy
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Graham,
The choke is energized with the ignition feed before the ballast resistor if used. |
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gR@HaM
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Thanks, Ive now located the reduntant feed wire. Will I get away with connecting the earth cable to the alternator earth terminal? Seems obvious to me but thought best to check! |
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gR@HaM
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Can anyone advise regarding the choke neutral? Ive now reconditioned the carb, given it a good clean down and fitted the holley trick kit. Another question about the choke, the cap was originally on upside down Ive now fitted it right way up and adjusted so the choke plate is fully shut. Im guessing this opens up once its energised by the battery (and not cold) - does that sound correct? I appreciate it may need tweeking if the engine runs rough Thanks |
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spiralhelix
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Graham, I've actually wondered the proper method as well. I noticed there was a lot of play between having the choke fully closed to when it starts to open. The diagram below is what I am trying to figure out. I think i figured out the answer, but I'm sure I'll get schooled by a smart person here.
top left: initial install. the loop of the choke metal slips over the pin. top right: rotating the choke counterclockwise closes the choke plate with the pin on the "coil" side of the choke. if you over turn (continuing ccw) to the bottom left, there is a bit of give before the plate starts to open again when you turn back cw. (*I think this is where im off) bottom left: pin placement when turning cw to start to open the choke plate bottom right: pin location when the choke has been heated and the coil expands. After writing this, I think i see the error of my ways. Since the choke plate naturally wants to be OPEN, the pin will always ride on the "coil" side of the choke. So in that case, turning it ccw until slightly closed (or i've seen a #2 pencil width) should do it (top left to top right). Then as the metal expands, the choke pin and plate will naturally return to it's open state. In other words, the expansion of the metal doesn't "pull" the pin back, it just resists the pin from returning to it's neutral state. with the metal fully expanded, the pin will have no pressure pushing back on it (if anything, it might "hold" it in the open state) oh, and of course, this should be set with the choke COLD. |
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spiralhelix
Senior Member Joined: August-06-2014 Location: IL/WI Status: Offline Points: 496 |
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I think my latter assessment is correct. I reinstalled my choke cap with the pin in the loop. Turned ccw until the choke plate was lightly closed. Turned the key to energize the coil. As the coil heated, the plate slowly opened (about 1.5 minutes from closed to fully open)
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gR@HaM
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Fantastic, this has answered my question - thanks.
The 90secs taken to open the choke plate, presumably this is with the engine running? What would you say was approx ambient temperature? Also could you let me know what the earth terminal is grounded to? Thanks again |
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8122pbrainard
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The ground is needed to complete the circuit for the bimetallic spring. |
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gR@HaM
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I understand but what is the choke grounded to? Directly to the block? Was thinking of connecting it to the earth terminal on the alternator..
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spiralhelix
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In one YouTube vid I watched, the guy just used a jumper from the terminal to the closest cap retaining screw. My ground pops out from a grouping of wires, so not sure exactly the termination of the other end. Ground is ground, so any place should work. I'd probably do the jumper method for simplicity's sake.
And the engine does not need to be running, just turn the key "on". My ambient temp was probably in the low to mid sixties (F) or 17 c |
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gR@HaM
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I see, thanks thats interesting. So the choke works by the live electrical feed heating up the spring which in time opens the choke plate. I always thought it was linked to ambient temperature ie would remain closed for longer in the winter time. But it sounds like its effectively a time delay mechanism. Does it operate this way every time the engine is started, so even if it is up to temperature the choke is initially closed for a period of time after switching ignition off and back on again? If that makes sense?
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Yes it mostly works that way, except being attached to the carb that is attached to the engine it doesn't cool down as quickly when the engine is hot, nor does it heat up as quickly when the engine is really cold. But yes the electric choke is a cheap solution that works mostly but is not an ideal solution.
Also a small jumper wire with a ring to go around one of the carb mounting studs will serve just fine for the ground wire. |
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