Another 1980 Stringer |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Progress is dismal due to rain
Have only spent about 3 hours since my last post. Have my CPES ready to go, 8 boxes on their way from US composites, and SS D. Fir on order from Vancouver Island! (amazing how hard to find the right wood when I thought I lived next door to Douglas Fir country!) Have cut out the rudder box reinforcment - it was solid wood (vs plwood) and not really rotten or any water even. Lots of sanding/grinding to come The exhaust backing and the backing for the swim platform were both plywood and while not totally rotten - did not hold together when removed. I will replace with CPES'd wood but if I do another I'll be looking very carefully at the COOSA composite. Probaly be mid July before I make much more progress due to family commitments.... |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Okay Got it out intact. Two additional hours cutting with the diamond blade and grinding (sanding) with flapper wheel thing and a couple gentle wacks with a (small) sledge and out it came. Perfect condition for a pattern. Was not stuck at all along the bottem just the glass on the sides holding. No wonder this boat weighed so much it seems to be bedded in an inch of glass.
The secondary stringer is in tight too. An hour of grinding and just starting to get some movement - probably another hour there. Hope to get it out and all the misc plywood by the time we take off for a couple weeks at the lake at the end of the month. The stamp on the wood indicated select structural grade Douglas Fir, S Dry (<19%) as supplied 30 some years ago. The WCLB is the West Coast Lumber Bureau (as the grading agency it seems) so I guess they (CC) were shipping it across the country. And now I understand the icing sugar donut comments from previous threads. Good thing I didn't try this in the garage. Got the order in for US Composites -$350 shipping here is still better than local pricing. Still need to find a good source for CPES (local about $80/qt). I'll be back with some questions when I think I have got the hull ready to epoxy to. |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Through the glass - I actually took it off the stringer (see picture above). I wacked at if a few times - it is solid!
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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If you're sure you're through the glass on the sides, then I'd be inclined to break out the sledge.
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Pete - I was really hoping to get it as complete as possible - the need to scribe a bunch to get the bottem right worries me (even though you and others suggest it is not that hard I have my doubts).
I am going to make sure the glass is gone done as close to the floor as I can first (its only about 1/4 plus or minus now) and see if it doesn't loosen up. Even thinking of sanding it right down. Wood looked so good I thought a little CPES and re-wrap it with epoxy but I'm this far now .... will get it out one way or other - the line and multiple pieces will be the back-up plan I guess. Thanks. |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Chuck,
I think this is the first time I've heard anyone doing a stringer job having a problem getting the old ones out. It's got to be a combination of them being in pretty good shape and the factory doing a unheard of good job! I'd draw a straight line lengthwise down the stringer for future reference. Then, cut them into about 3 sections. With the line drawn on the old, you can then clamp them off to a straight edge and use them for templates. |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Thanks for all the help. Should have ordered today but was too busy trying to get the one primary stringer out - Unsuccessfully.
Thought I would just have to cut along the bottom both sides through the fibreglass and there wouldn't be much else holding it in. I REMOVED all the fibreglass and its still bonded so well doesn't even wiggle. So why is it bonded so well at the hull when the sides peel off? I'd really like to get them out whole to get a good pattern - any ideas? I looked at using the sawzall but even with a long blade doesn't look good for just cutting along the hull. wood looks pretty good - can even see the mill stamp on it. |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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I like the doubled up 2/4/8 cloth on the stringers much better than multiple layers of thicker material. I would add biax up the side of the stringer, as well as capping the tops of the primaries with it.
On the floor, youre correct that the 3 layers of biax would be 1/8". Mat is thinner than biax and a single layer of cloth will add next to no appreciable thickness, so you'll be just a shade beyond 1/8" with that layup. I think that biax on the floor is overkill. The reason for a thick build up here is more for impact resistance than pure strength. I would opt for alternating layers of cloth and mat instead- you'll get plenty of strength from that combo, and mat builds thickness pretty quick. Its really no harder to work with than biax- it actually forms bends a *little* easier, as its not quite as thick. Mat is also significantly cheaper than the biax. 3-5 layers of alternating mat/cloth on the floor should be fine- starting and ending with mat. |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Tim - I have read so many I get confused I keep notes but then have trouble finding where I got it from - even when I link it! My original plan was 2" 4" and 8" tape for the primaries (2 layers each) which was before I talked to USC. I think that is what you and several others have used. The Biax layers above with the mat and cloth on top was my thinking for the floor - the 3 biax layers (@ 0.044") should be 1/8" alone I thought - or does it thin out when wetted out? Anyway - my orignal idea (copied from Big Pappa LVL build)again before talking to USC was 3 layers of mat, one biax and one cloth - I thought Biax would be easier to work with and to work than mat so switched them in my comment above. As for the epoxy shelf life - it is noted in USC FAQ although they say it can be used longer and recommend agitating the hardner if its been sitting a long time. And boat is going outside today. Can't wait to start cutting and grinding. Thanks for all the comments. Glad I asked as I want to make this easier, not harder (from prior experience I don't like fibreglass but it seems to like me). Hopefully I'll make some progress this weekend. |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I've got epoxy that's still good and is at least 5 years old! Gary, I've used the technique of removing the oxygen from cans for years however, I don't buy the expensive little cans. I always have a bottle of MIG shielding gas (75/25 for carbon steel and the "Tri-mix" for stainless) and use it to evacuate the oxygen. Getting the oxygen out of the partially filled coating cans does work. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Gel coat is the same too,it says 90 days but I have had 1 can going on 3 years. I have always used this stuff,it seems to work |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Have you read any of the stringer threads that discuss glass layup schedules? I dislike your proposed schedule for several reasons- thick layers (biax, mat) are harder to work with as they don't bend well. Following a thick layer, it is very easy to introduce air bubbles where you stagger the joints. Cloth is probably the worst choice for a finish layer. The common biax used from USC has cloth woven at 45 reg angles, so you wouldn't have many layers with their greatest strength in the most important directions. Your proposed layup will be about 1/8" or so; not approaching 1/4".
That's thefirst Ive heard of epoxy having a 1 yr shelf life... I too, am skeptical! Ive used older stuff without issue. No way would I grind inside the garage, what a mess!!! You can remove the stringers and then brace the hull afterwards. That would allow you to keep the boat mobile. |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Rebuilding to same as factory.
1. Wood, 2. foam, 3. fibreglass over foam, 4. no extra ribs etc. The USC was saying 2 layers biax cloth. Based on others I am thinking 3 layers biax, one layer mat and onlayer of cloth to finish it off - seems that should give about 0.25" over the floor. I will also use one layer of tape on the primary stringers and two of the biax and then one-two biax over to cover and build up. The secondary I'll just use cloth. I will stick with 10 gallons of epoxy for now, the shelf life of a year has me thinking less rather than more (although I have used epoxy I had for several years and it seemed to work, but maybe I just din't know better). Even though I hope to get the epoxy all done this year I see several of these jobs have dragged on and mine may well end up like that. I have the day off tomorrow so will try to get the boat blocked up and start removing the one primary stringer - my wife can't decide whether I am to work outside or inside the garage - I have warned her about the dust. I have told her once a stringer is out the boat can't move till its back in |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Before you get to the point where youre creating a materials list, you need to decide the method youre going to use to rebuild the boat. Maybe youve done this already, but feel free to clue us in.
1. Wood vs. composite 2. Foam vs. no foam 3. Floor material (glass over foam vs. plywood, etc) 4. Extra structural members (ribs, bulkheads, etc) or not? (Largely dependent on your answers to 1-3). Those will drive your material list to a great degree. For a "factory" stringer/floor job (wood stringers, foam, glass over foam floor) then I would say that 10-12 gallons of epoxy (not including the hardener) is in the ballpark. Other methods may require more. I agree that shooting for a glass thickness similar to the factory is a good idea. If using all cloth, that will likely take 10+ layers (probably closer to 15). Certainly nowhere near the 2 that USC recommends. If mixing in some mat or biax, then 5-7 layers may be more appropriate. The fact that they think 2 layers of cloth is sufficient is just downright scary... maybe for a lightweight outboard that doesnt have a V8 resting on the stringers, but not for a stiff-hulled inboard, thats for sure. |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Thanks - I have read most of the other posts (including yours TRBenj) and do have lists from others - US Composites suggeted maybe some make it more difficult than needed? I like the Biax though so will plan to add additional layers of cloth for the stringers and also for the floor - probably along with some mat. I figure I will simply build it up until I have the thickness I'm starting with. Cloth at least is easy to get locally. I am also starting with the 10 gal kit of epoxy (13 gals mixed) and that should last a while. Or should I start with more?
This will be a slow project - targetting to have the stringers and all wood bits done this summer and finish it up next spring. Any comments on cutting them out (or is it even as bad as I think)? |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Those suggested glass schedules are VERY light... I would do some reading up on the stringer rebuilds shared on this site and come up with a proper glass schedule, and then base your material list off of that. US Composites has great materials at great prices, but their tech support is very hit or miss, it seems. This is one case where I would give them a big .
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I have tried others and yes US Composites seems to have the best price and ships fast. As to the epoxy sticking better your right but you should also CPES them 1st and it will stick even better. Here is a link that some great info. I have been buying direct from them but I understand some places may have it cheaper at times. One other thing about the job you'll do is that you'll take the time to do a better job than the factory could ever do.
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Also - the diamond blade on the grinder seems to be the way to go to remove the stringers based on other posts - any suggestions appreciated as this part is getting scary to me.
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Okay, drilled a few holes tonight and the wood is solid at least. However, the primary stringers sure took a lon time to drill trhough with a brand new saw.
The `core`is solid - but it is damp and the saw dust was damp and `soggy` so I guess it is time to get to work and simply replace them. Also, the existing fibreglass even though it seems to be attached to the primary stringer, when I drill it came off immeditely. Is that a polyester thing - my limited experience with epoxy says it will penetrate and bond and never seperate like that. I talked to USComposites today and Steve there is recommending biax tape (6 and 12 inch) for the stringers and biax cloth - two layers - for the floor over 4 lb foam. From other posts this seems a bit less than others have done - he indicated 2 lb foam would compress under a foot and certainly whatever I removed was solid even after the fibreglass came out. Any comments would be welcome. Interestingly US Composites seems way less money than anything I can find here, even after a couple hundred dollars shipping. |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Picked up a hole saw for the drill today but too late tonight and on the road for the next couple days.
The front of the primary stringers quite visible (not a lot of fibreglass) - hard to see but the starboard side has some rot near the front end where the last floor board sat. here the secondary stringer looks like it just came from the mill.... but farther forward it is 'weathered' but still appears competant, I'll see what the holes reveal later this week. |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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politicallycorrect
Senior Member Joined: May-19-2011 Location: vermont Status: Offline Points: 239 |
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You get the foam out and you're halfway there! Post some pics and I'm sure those in the know will be glad to help out.
Scott |
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Skin grows back...fiberglass doesn't!!
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ski-guy
Groupie Joined: September-12-2011 Location: West Kelowna Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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I am finally getting to the point where I need to start taking the stringers out, or patching them up. So far I don't see too much rot, just the top of the starboard side where one of the floorboards was rotted and the rot went into both the primary and secondary stringers.
I will drill some holes in the next day or two to see if there is rot or not. I have read most the stringer posts and it doesn't seem that anyone has just patched up what's there - so I assume the consensus is since the floor is out one might as well do the whole thing anyway? |
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1980 SN - don't worry dear, I may have $10+K into this project boat but I can easily sell it for $5k
2000/2001 Glen-L 'Squirt' 2006 Malibu LSV |
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