Not another Mustang restoration thread. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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The comments I made above were before I saw the gaps. Cutting off the top might be the best plan since it's in such a short area. As to prepping I would think that if the wood is dry as you say and cpes soaks in you'd be good to go. I don't think I'd be making my own though I'd just buy the real stuff instead of experimenting on what the correct mixture would be. Use epoxy when closing it back up.
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turningpoint84
Platinum Member Joined: September-11-2008 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 1467 |
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Anyone ever just tossed imbiber beads on the floor of their boat to soak all the crap up?
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Proud 1968 mustang owner and now
1970 Mustang |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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A little xylene mixed in with epoxy is all it takes to make a watery consistency. It's not rocket surgery.
I'd cut the tops off the stringers with gaps/delam like you've shown. Thinned epoxy followed by thickened epoxy (high strength filler like milled fiber) would be my choice. The consistency of the thickened resin would depend on the size of the gap in filling. For glass prep, I'd mechanically roughen the surface accepting new glass... Sand/grind followed by acetone. Make sure not to attach any new glass directly to gel (in the bilge). Grind down to glass in these areas. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Won't argue with you there but he will want it to soak in as best as it can why get cheap now and try to be a chemist? 50/50 and he's good to go---- |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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John,
At one time, I contacted the rot doc about oily wood since I've got plenty of it in the hull of the 1915 launch. The response was very logical. The strong solvents in ether the purchased or home brew will "eat" into the oils in the wood but it will cure slower and not as hard. If normal epoxy is then used over the treated wood, it will bond with good results. |
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5312 |
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That's a text book case of a DISBOND fella's. The fiberglass plies are NOT seperating from themselves (Delaminating) but have as a whole component has DISBONDED from the wood ..... go back and watch my video Timmy If you go the epoxy route we use acetone to thin out epoxy resin all the time here at work. Microballoons (glass spheres) make an excellent filler (when mixed with epoxy) and used as the rub strip for the fan blades in the fan containment cases in our engines because the stuff is so tough. Mix ratio is 22-30% of the resin weight....We have empty chaulk tubes that are filled with it and use a chaulk gun to force it in the honeycomb cells. That would be ideal for this application but don't know if it's easy found. If not then I too suggest cutting off the top of the DISBONDED glass , filling the sides with epoxy after CPES and reglass the top as Tim suggested. |
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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Didn't it disbond when the wood shrank? What happens when you fill the space with butter and the wood expands?
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Bruce,
The wood won't expand as long as it gets a good CPES and epoxy treatment. There's a good chance that the dis bond from the wood was caused by wet wood freezing. as well as a poor bond from the factory. |
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5312 |
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Yes, Bruce it did. Good question? My guess is that the wood would just compress if the new glass over was done properly. If not then when it started swelling then it would pop "The Cap"off. ...... If fully encased in fiberglass would the wood swell again. It shrinks because lack of moisture right?
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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Hard to believe that once treated and encased in glass/expoxy that the moisture content of the wood doesn't change, but if the cap pops off it's easy to fix.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Polyester resin is hygroscopic. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Splitting hairs for us laymen, Tim... Google search results for the 2 terms use them pretty interchangeably (see the first few results for "disbond"). But I understand you're making the distinction between layers of glass delaminating from each other vs. the glass becoming disbonded from the wood substrate. I will admit that I have not watched your video in its entirety in quite some time.
Glass does have the advantage of being pretty flexible. I imagine it could handle some dimension variation. If t never gets wet, I wouldn't expect it to vary much anyways. |
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5312 |
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Haha.....well since we are in the business here at CCFan of mixing multiple layers of fiberglass and wood then we all need to be on the same page!
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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I think you're all mad, but John's retired, so he may as well tear into them...
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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What is your point Bruce just because he's retired does not mean he has extra time. I find that there is even less. Everyone thinks,well your not doing anything can you do this for me,can you go with,etc
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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Gary, if you lived by me, I'm sure I could find stuff for you to do, too! You must find some people get aggravated with you because you keep yourself so busy.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Bruce, I always thought that the appraisal business was just like being retired! |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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On if you have employees, Pete. Being chief cook and bottle washer, I don't undertstand the concept of "extra time".
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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I guess cutting the top the full length of the stringers and applying as much CPES as they will take, followed by thickened epoxy in the event of any voids, and then capping them is the way to go. I will be putting in an order to Jamestown Distributors for some of the stuff I need unless someone has a better choice. Here is what I have so far:
I think a gallon of CPES should do it including treating the new wood floor I will need to install under the pan. I am looking at the 1 gallon Total Boat 5:1 epoxy kit. Some milled fiberglass may come in handy I don't know if microballons or silica thickener would be better for my project. What cloth should I use for best results? I will need something to glue the sole down. What's best? Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on things I have failed to consider? I will not be able to devote 100% of my time until sometime in December. I can do a day here and there until then. I want to have the stuff I need on hand so I can make good use of my time. I am leaning pretty hard on everyone and I want you to know I appreciate the help I am getting. I may not have the skills to do an expert job, but I am confident with your guidance I will use the right products. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Milled fiber works awesome. Cabosil might be my 2nd choice, it's color neutral and smooths out real nice. I'd add some pigment to the resin so it's easier to cover (or maybe you can match) the mains in the bilge area.
I'd get it all from us composites for a significant discount. I'd get at least 2gal of resin. Many layers (5-7) of thinner cloth would be fine and be easier to make the tight bends over the tops of stringers, but biax or mat would build thickness quicker. Don't forget to grind the edges of the glass that you leave behind for the transition (remove all gel in areas accepting new glass). |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Tim turned me on to us composites too John,I'm sure that is what he used on the seats. Get the measuring pumps they take out any guess work.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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I bought some stuff from U S Composites years ago. Il price it there Thanks!
I did a little work today and got my stuff organized. When I cut the cap off astern of the engine I found that the major shrinkage was in the vertical dimension. The glass on the sides of the main stringers is not bonded to them, but it is not showing much of a gap either. I believe this was the right way to proceed. Next up, engine out and dig in. I read many comments and opinions proclaiming that there is no such thing as a boat this old with original stringers that have not turned to compost. Frankly I thought these were still serviceable but I began doubting myself even after removing the well seated lag bolts and examining the wood in the hole. I am happy to say that this project has gotten infinitely easier since I will not be doing a stringer job. There are two places where the rear cross member was where I can force a screwdriver about 1/8 into the wood if I push hard enough, but it is not enough to be concerned over. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Morfoot
Grand Poobah Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5312 |
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John, as Tim stated in his post above. A thinner tighter weave is easier to work with as it lays down really nice, forms well around curves etc BUT you will need more plys to add thickness and structural strength. ALWAYS round your corners as they will they down better and won't have a tendency lift up on you. Use a "pizza cutter" rotary style blade to cut long lengths of cloth and use a metal yardstick, or carpenter square as a fence to cut it. Cut it on a long 1x6 or something so as not to dull the blade and watch those fingers. It will lop off the end of your thumb/finger if you aren't careful ( seen it).
SHARP, SHARP SHARP sissors make the would of difference so don't scrimp on a decent pair and use them for cloth only. I dug out my Delta Composite Traing manual for desriptions of the following..... Milled Fibers - Milled Fibers are used to thicken and reinforce resins. They are typically made of chopped glass (approx. 1/64 to 1/4 inch). Milled fibers are typically used to repair small holes in solid laminates. Microballoons - These are very small hallow spheres. They are used to displace resin and lighten the potting compound. Microballoons are used as a core potting compound and a dent filler. Fumed Silica [cab-o-sil] - Small cicular plates of silica added to resin as a thixotropic agent to prevent resin from sagging. Thixotropic agents are gel at rest but become fluid when agitated. So there you have it.......maybe that will help you determine what is best to use. I have been meaning to do a composite 101 thread with pics of various things we use here at DAL that would easily apply to those of us restoring these old boats. Maybe I can get around to doing so this winter. Let me know if I can help more John. Keep at it brother and the pics to show us your progress. TimBob/Foot |
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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turningpoint84
Platinum Member Joined: September-11-2008 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 1467 |
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John I look forward to the day of our little mustangs riding together!
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Proud 1968 mustang owner and now
1970 Mustang |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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john, I've got a bunch of glass & resin supplies from the ongoing Martinique project. Holler if you need anything. Plenty of cabosil, cloth tape, 3:1 US composite resin, CPES, etc. I won't go through it all this winter so you're welcome to anything you want to experiment or use. I can re-buy later if needed.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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I missed you this year, I hope all is well. Amazing how small these Mustangs are. The Alumitoon looks giant alongside your Mustang and its a standard 20'er |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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turningpoint84
Platinum Member Joined: September-11-2008 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 1467 |
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Yeah i didn't make it up this year with the new baby coming in late june, but we're headed up in october!
I'm planning on getting the boat out next summer. Knowing me I'll probably be calling you for some help on the winterization process again haha. |
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Proud 1968 mustang owner and now
1970 Mustang |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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You may have a problem if you own more than one of these. This one is for my good power train. My wife is a saint.
I am ready to pull the engine/trans. My thought is to cover the boat with 4 mil plastic and tape it down with painters tape to protect the finish while working with epoxy and other stuff. Is there anything better suited for this? Also, are there any Velvet Drive parts that wear out and are hard to come by that would make me think it is a good idea to keep my spare, which I consider a core. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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John,
There's no need to worry about parts for the Velvet. Unlike the PCM's, they are pretty tough sp there's a chance it may outlast you and I combined! |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21131 |
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Pete's out to lunch on that one, the PCM's are pretty bulletproof as evidenced by Joe!
I would definitely keep the core velvet... Pumps and other hard parts do wear out and can be costly. |
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