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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Yes the scarf is a problem with todays ply face veneer being around a 1/64" thick when bright finished. The ply needs to be pre stained and sealed, the scarf cut and epoxied, then clamped and any excess epoxy solvent wiped off. Al, I don't feel there is anyone out there anymore scarfing ply. It's now a do it yourself process and not easy!!! In the "good old days", the face veneer was a 1/8" thick - special for the scarf. Plenty of sanding room!! |
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DrCC
Grand Poobah Joined: April-12-2004 Location: at home Status: Offline Points: 2867 |
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Pete, There probably is a few places left. One would just have to start searching. A good place to start would be looking for high-end cabinet builders.
I would not recommend a do-it-yourself scarf joint. I would also advise against any stain between the joint. AT |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Al'
Read again!! I never said stain/seal the actual scarf!! I said pre stain seal the panel face. Then cut your scarf. BTW, I've been all over!! Why would cabinet builders need sheets of ply over 8'?? Also, some species of ply are available in 10' sheets. You are really out of "tune" regarding the subject!! |
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DrCC
Grand Poobah Joined: April-12-2004 Location: at home Status: Offline Points: 2867 |
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Not saying need, saying capability.
AT |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Really? I still don't understand why a cabinet maker would have the "capability" when there is no "need". A scarf isn't even in their vocabulary!! Please explain. BTW, have you ever scarfed?? I have!!!! And bright finished!!! |
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75 Tique
Grand Poobah Joined: August-12-2004 Location: Seven Lakes, NC Status: Offline Points: 6107 |
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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Pete, a fellow might want to accent a table top with an ebony inlay. He could cut 1 strip from a 10' plank of ebony or cut a bunch from a 1' block. I can't imagine how much a 10' piece of ebony would cost...if you could find one. And yes, it's a different application.
I did think of a pair of jigs since we talked about it way back that might work on a wide belt sander. The sander would have to be big enough to not be a drum type along with a few other details like width. Otherwise I suppose it would be a long knife and a guillotine set-up? I've never seen the established meathod. Maybe/hopefully I'll need to figure it out someday. Edit-Larry fixed it! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Larry, Thanks, The next time you're going down the road, ask them about bright finishing their scarfed ply. I went to the link and saw the picture of their scarf. Sorry but from what I saw, the glue used to make the scarf is very evident on both sides of the scarf and this will prevent the wood from taking a stain. That's the big problem!! |
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DrCC
Grand Poobah Joined: April-12-2004 Location: at home Status: Offline Points: 2867 |
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Pete, High-End maybe the words you missed. These are the shops that do more than just cabinets. Spiral Staircases, Elaborate Doorways, Display Cases etc... Get the idea? Things that would be found in multi-million dollar homes.
So saying there is no "need" is rather silly. I also looked at Boulter's scarf. Looks good. The remaining glue shouldn't be a problem for a talented wood person. I would much rather use scarfed ply, than to have an ugly visible butt block on the interior. Wouldn't you? Quoting your above statement. "BTW, have you ever scarfed? I have!!! And bright finished!!! What's that all about? Need a Medal? Actually I have not scarfed plywood. We subbed out scarfing to professionals that did that every day and had the equipment to do it right. And yes I have bright finished scarfed ply. Also I have scarf joined more keels than I care to count. Regarding being "out of tune" I also build guitars. Larry, Good link, Thanks. AT |
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75 Tique
Grand Poobah Joined: August-12-2004 Location: Seven Lakes, NC Status: Offline Points: 6107 |
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I always wondered about that Pete, and especially after you taked about doing the finishing prior to doing the scarfing. I wonder if the sloppy glue job could be sanded down to take a bright finish. In teh many year ongoing thinking about building a boat, is scarf and bright or scarf and paint or butt and bright (bright is my preference although painted hull and bright deck is an option too. Another factor....transporting a 16 foor long piece of wood and then, as mentioned above, handling it could be a challenge too. |
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“So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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There's just not enough face veneer thickness on todays ply to sand. It's typically around 1/64". It you sand to far, then you're into the glue line at the next layer and this too inhibits the wood from taking a stain. The ply used on my X55 was a special order. The outside face veneer is 1/8" thick. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Al, I've been this route as well. I didn't miss "high end"! We have two members in our chapter that I have discussed the scarf issue with. One owns a very "high end" architectural millwork shop doing work in multi million dollar homes in our Lake Geneva area. He also is big time into boat restoration Lange custom woodworking The second is all architectural millwork mostly large commercial jobs like a bank or exec offices. Both agree the bright finished scarf with todays ply is a problem and that the stain and seal before cutting the scarf is the only way. Both also commented that a scarf isn't needed in ether the cabinet or architectural millwork areas. It's pretty much restricted to the ply marine hull area.
It may look good to you maybe but I'd worry? Get some stain on it and see what happens!
Absolutely! Plus with a butt block you will always have a problem with the outside seam.
Al, Sorry this wasn't meant to be insulting in any way but merely to stress the complexity of scarfing ply for a bright finish. You didn't seem to understand that. However, now you stating you subbed out your scarf work to professionals explains a lot. I wish the ply scarf was as easy as doing a keel that's hidden anyway!! Plenty of filled epoxy goes a long way!! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Al, Is this the picture you looked at off Boucher's site? It looks pretty bad to me!!!??? keep in mind that they always put the best picture up for viewing on a site!! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Here's a older close up picture of one of the scarfs on my X55.
This picture was taken after a refinish, new spray rails and fresh bottom paint. Not a close up but at any distance past a couple feet, the scarf isn't even noticeable. You won't get this with a butt block butt joint. |
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compact_skier_2B
Newbie Joined: August-12-2010 Location: Woodstock ct Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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gentleman...I go to the St. Lawrence river for a week and you send my thread off on a serious side course...
I enjoy your comments and my new question is "WHAT IS SCARFING!!!!" So much talk about it would lead me to believe its some sort of high end way to join plywood together length wise? Thanks, Nate |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Nate.
A scarf joint is a long bevel that's cut on end of two pieces of wood. Usually in a 8 to 10 ratio of wood thickness to the length of the bevel. Depending on the adhesive and if the bevels are cut accurately, the joint is stronger than the wood itself. You say you don't mind a restoration project but I need to ask about your woodworking skill level. Are you sure you want a wood boat? A scarf is a pretty basic joint. |
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compact_skier_2B
Newbie Joined: August-12-2010 Location: Woodstock ct Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Pete,
I don't mind a project...does knowing the term scarf determine the quality of ones ability to fabricate? No I have never done a scarf but by the sounds of the back and forth in this thread I would say you are the only one who has performed a scarf and admitted yourself that it is a very difficult process to perform correctly...now you call it a basic joint?? I could read all the forums in the world and not be any better at wood/mechanical work...the way I learn is to do. Not to say I don't appreciate all the excellent information I have been given thus far on the forum, I just feel you may be a little quick to judge based on my question about a basic term. Keep the help, info, and opinions coming! Nate |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Nate, Sorry. My wording was not very good. I was trying to determine your woodworking skill level and it came across sounding insulting. That's wasn't the intent. Yes, you are absolutely correct that doing is learning! A scarf is one of the basic joints although it's very old and not used very much anymore and consequently forgotten. The only two places it's still used is in boat building/repair and lengthening plywood. As you've read, the basic ply scarf isn't a big challenge for a woodworker until that ply becomes bright finished. |
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DrCC
Grand Poobah Joined: April-12-2004 Location: at home Status: Offline Points: 2867 |
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Wow! The only point I was focusing on, the fact that you stated at 12:17pm " I don't feel there is anyone out there anymore scarfing ply. It's now a do it yourself process, and not easy!!!"
Larry found a place in only a matter of a few hours! Now you say "isn't a big challenge" As for stain, one must know how to make wood accept stain. As for your other comment. One must also know when to out-source a process to produce the highest quality end result. And "Filler in a keel?" Surely you jest! |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Al, It has become quite obvious that you are way beyond my level of talent. Thanks for your input. |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Pete, I have seen the work you do, and the talent's you hide inside that brain of your's. Thank you for the many tips you have provided .
I have never done a scarf, but the time is growing near to raise the bar.Plastic does not scare me,mat and gel will hide a lot .But to perform a proper joint that will accept a stain and not show is a thing of beauty........Boat dr |
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compact_skier_2B
Newbie Joined: August-12-2010 Location: Woodstock ct Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Thanks Pete! Its not that I am even claiming to be a good wood worker I was more referencing someone who may be very good at such talents but not completely versed in the full technical lingo (even though in most cases the two would go hand in hand). I will continue my search for a correct craft be it wood or glass. |
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compact_skier_2B
Newbie Joined: August-12-2010 Location: Woodstock ct Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Well I am trying hard to get this one as it is only 3 hrs away but I don't think I will win the auction...looks like someone else is running up the bids against me (probably someone from this site : ) )
ebay link |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Nate,
Something may be wrong with your link. It takes me to a ebay page that states the item has been removed. When posting a link, use the "post reply" and not the "quick reply". Click on the world icon at the top and the first window that comes up is where you want to describe the link. Click ok and you'll get another window. This is where you want to paste the copied address. Then click ok again. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I did find it by doing a ebay search. Here's the link That is a Compact! Overall it doesn't look like it's in that bad of a condition however, it looks like the bottom has been fiberglassed. Not good!! He's ether off on his HP or the CI. I'd say it's the CI because the 200 was never marinized.
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compact_skier_2B
Newbie Joined: August-12-2010 Location: Woodstock ct Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Thanks for posting the link Pete...I want that little baby. I noticed the hull and I did email him about it asking what the situation was and if he could take more detailed pics below the water line.
I'll keep you posted. Nate |
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