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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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Thanks Tim. It's definitely going to be necessary to measure the chambers. It is possible it has 0.104 gaskets instead of 0.040 because the heads were milled when the top end overhaul was done sometime in the past. By my calculations the difference in gaskets would be about 12cc and result in about 1-1/2 points unless they were milled an equal amount and assuming an equal crush. It is now clear that I don't know what I have. I am happy to have the extra set of heads just in case.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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Since you are pulling the heads anyways, I'd be inclined to cc the chambers and confirm if your research of 53.5c chambers is correct. If so, you'd be giving up about 3/4 of a point of compression by going to the p's (58-61cc chambers). I wouldn't be thrilled with that prospect, because while the p's will almost certainly flow better, the lower CR will partially offset the hp gains... And more importantly, the lower CR will also detract nominally from the exhaust note. Higher CR = sharper bite (sound wise).
For an otherwise stock build, I'd be inclined to have the original heads gone through, if deemed necessary- or just bolt them back on if not. For a full rebuild with more hp in mind, I'd go gt40p and choose pistons that net a similar 10.5:1. |
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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it's ok, it's pre 2003 so it's practically original. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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DVskier ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: September-04-2014 Location: Seneca SC Status: Offline Points: 449 |
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A Fram filter? Are you trying to cause Pete to have a heart attack?
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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I think I have the answer to the 10.5 : 1 C/R on my 69 & 70 HMs. I located information on a 302 4V head that was available in 1968 J=code Mustangs and Shelby GT350s. It was similar to mine, but had 58cc chambers with 10 : 1 C/R and 230HP in the J-code 302. The 4 speed J-code cars heads had smog ports but the automatics did not. A Ford engine rebuilding site said this: "The elusive 1968 302-4V head is unique for its smaller 53.5-cc chambers, which increase compression". There is a variation on these heads I found reference to on some Mustang threads. These heads have a casting number of C9OE which indicates it is a 351 head, but it clearly has 302 cast into them. All of these heads I can find mentioned have a casting date of February or March of 1969 and were cast at the Cleveland Foundry. My head shows a casting date of March 14, 1969 (9C14). According to my research and that of others who posted on the threads, these heads are not mentioned in any Ford or engine rebuilding specifications. Some call these heads a 1969 non- L4 change head. These heads reportedly have a 53.5 cc chamber, no step on the rocker studs, no lash caps, and one piece spring retainers. According to what I have found these heads are very hard to come by. According to some they can be machined to accept 1.94/1.50 valves, but some suggest that this may reduce the charge velocity and thereby reduce the low end torque while possibly increasing the upper end a bit. In light of this I am questioning whether there really is a benefit to the GT40P heads since they have a larger chamber creating lower C/R These 302 heads appear to have been specially made for applications not related to Ford retail products. I suspect they were cast for Shelby and Holman Moody like some of the other parts and that is why there is no information available on them. I will keep the original heads and spend the $$$ to have them checked and reworked if necessary.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I did a prop change at the same time but my low to mid range seemed to be better. It would be interesting to see pictures of your pistons and chambers.
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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I'd want to know how HM was getting that 10.5:1 before swapping out heads... Small chamber heads or piston choice? I'd want to keep the CR above 10 with the p's.
20-40hp should certainly be noticeable. That should be realistic if the original heads are nothing special and you can keep the CR up. |
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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I'm just about ready to pull the engine/trans. It has had a head overhaul some time in the past. The gaskets on this thing are 0.104 without crush, seriously! I am wondering if someone installed a very phat gasket to lower the compression (10.5 : 1) to run on the juice that was readily available on their lake. The heads also have standard steel core plugs. I believe it would be prudent to pull the heads and replace the gaskets. As long as they are off I should have them serviced but these heads really don't justify the price. I was trying to keep it all original but I just don't see putting the $ into these anchors.
Tri State Cylinder Head will build and deliver a set of GT40P heads to my house for about $650.00 with all new parts (not the heads) including some quality springs good to 0.550 lift. I love original but I think it would be throwing money away in this case. I am not really looking for more power since these Mustangs seem to scoot along pretty well stock. I have seen figures of 20-40HP gain and I don't think that will make a noticeable difference. I believe they are a direct fit with enough valve clearance. Is there anything I should know or consider before I go this route? |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Same place has the replacements for 57's
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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Thanks for the effort. Those are the wedge instrument bulbs used in many cars back to the 70 i believe. The bulbs I need are like this, GE57. The above bulbs are 193/194 bulbs and are pretty easy to find in either incan or LED. I may just clean up the sockets and reuse them but I would prefer to have new LEDs. The socket goes in the hole it back of the gauge with the black plug.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I think he just wants new sockets Pete. That site looks to have everything he might need
Bulb and socket and just bulbs,so many in fact it looks like over kill! ![]() ![]() |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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John,
Is there anything wrong with the original sockets? I ask since it would seem just getting a retofit LED bulb would be easier? What are the original bulbs in them? Is there a number on them? Didn't Al come up with the number back a ways in this thread? |
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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John check on these 5 pages,there are bulb holders a couple of pages in. Might be worth a call if you don't see the ones you need. led bulbs and sockets
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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I'm trying to order some stuff I need to advance. I am unable to find a source for the Teleflex-S/W instrument bulb sockets. I intend to replace the original sockets with new ones since I must make a new harness. I want to use LED bulbs to reduce the internal heating of the new instruments, and because I just like LEDs. Does anyone know of a source for these? I have searched far too long not to ask for help.
Thanks again from the helpless one. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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John,
I totally agree with Tim. I know it's been discussed to try and re bond the existing but that would be difficult to get the complete surfaces bonded especially down at the bottom. Plus, I agree with CPES route. If you can get the wood out, it would also be great to get the CPES on all surfaces. Get the cheap diamond wheel in the RA grinder and go at what glass is still there. |
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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I think that's a good plan, John. Remember that you're not far from full replacement if you find any questionable wood after pulling the disbonded glass off... But if all looks well, button it up!
Looking forward to seeing you move forward again! |
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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Starting in on the project in 2 weeks. I'm thinking it may be better to remove al the dis-bonded fiberglass, CPES the stringers, make a nice fillet joint, and lay up new glass. Any thoughts?Stringer dis-bonding
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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peter1234 ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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^^^^^^^^^^ ha ha
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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Dreaming ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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Eric Lavine - previous owner of fantastic finish marine. |
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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His pet fish
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Riley ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7952 |
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But if he used his boats, he wouldn't get 20+ years out of an impeller or set of points.
![]() Who's Eric? |
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Pete needs to buy a newer boat just to see how nice they really are. He could still be out boating if he had a heated driver seat.
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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I think you have selective memory, Pete. :)
If I remember correctly, Eric's 2 gripes with the PCM boxes were the fact that they didn't handle water intrusion well (duh) and the cost of hard parts made them expensive to rebuild. I think he would wholeheartedly disagree with your "not as beefy" assessment. The fact that the oldest 1.23 trannies are now 25+ years old, and are STILL touted as an upgrade over the 1:1 should tell you something. They make a pretty nice transmission. Oh and the fact that they came behind the 435hp 502ci Python engines should speak to their robustness as well. I wish I had such good luck with my 72c. ;) |
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peter1234 ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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I heard Eric told tim he was going to feed Pete some wrong information that would make Pete look like an idiot someday if he watched the posts long enough
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Tim, I feel you're out to lunch! As evidenced by Eric, I trust what he ALWAYS had to say. |
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21138 |
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Pete's out to lunch on that one, the PCM's are pretty bulletproof as evidenced by Joe!
I would definitely keep the core velvet... Pumps and other hard parts do wear out and can be costly. |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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John,
There's no need to worry about parts for the Velvet. Unlike the PCM's, they are pretty tough sp there's a chance it may outlast you and I combined! |
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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You may have a problem if you own more than one of these. This one is for my good power train. My wife is a saint.
![]() I am ready to pull the engine/trans. My thought is to cover the boat with 4 mil plastic and tape it down with painters tape to protect the finish while working with epoxy and other stuff. Is there anything better suited for this? Also, are there any Velvet Drive parts that wear out and are hard to come by that would make me think it is a good idea to keep my spare, which I consider a core. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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turningpoint84 ![]() Platinum Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September-11-2008 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 1467 |
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Yeah i didn't make it up this year with the new baby coming in late june, but we're headed up in october!
I'm planning on getting the boat out next summer. Knowing me I'll probably be calling you for some help on the winterization process again haha. |
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Proud 1968 mustang owner and now
1970 Mustang |
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john b ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3238 |
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I missed you this year, I hope all is well. Amazing how small these Mustangs are. The Alumitoon looks giant alongside your Mustang and its a standard 20'er ![]() |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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