Mountain vs. Mole Hill - Zinc Oils
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7892
Printed Date: May-06-2024 at 4:25pm
Topic: Mountain vs. Mole Hill - Zinc Oils
Posted By: M3Fan
Subject: Mountain vs. Mole Hill - Zinc Oils
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 2:46pm
|
Gang, time to play devil's advocate here. Flame away: Has anyone personally replaced a cam on a flat-tappet ski boat motor because of wear from using non-zinc oils? Or, has anyone even heard of someone replacing a cam on our PCM marinized Ford powerplants specifically, ever, purely do to wear despite regular oil changes with any reasonable (multi or straight 30 or 40w) oil? Could this be an issue reserved for more aggressive cam lobes seen on higher-performance engines? With our engines running 4400-5k RPM with stock marine cams and generally very mild modifications, is there a reason to really panic on this whole oil with zinc thing?
Further, who has broken down a flat tappet engine that has been running for 1000 hours and looked at the cam? How did the old cam look? TRBenj, how did the cam look in the 90 when you took it out? I'm sure that thing has seen a variety of oils over it's 18 year lifespan. Obviously oil is cheap and getting the best oil is great, cheap insurance, and I'm all for it. I'm just trying to reign in the panic on the lack of zinc additives in newer oils and really get a scope assigned to the problem. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Replies:
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 3:12pm
|
M3Fan,There are a number of cam failures that have happened in my little circle of motor builders.
Here is one story; 302 mildly modified,GT 40's good intake,ignition MSD and a Cam Research combo.The new cam blank changed the firing order..... Took 1 to 3 min. to figure out the misfire, cure change the plug wires. Damage done TWO CAM LOBES Wiped Out...... Tear down engine clean all parts and remove debris from MR. SQUEEKY ..... What caused the failure,debateable,Large amounts of cam lube used,EOS added to break-in oil.20/50 Castrol used . Scott at C/Research replaced the cam and the lifters at no cost,with the understanding it was a one time shot... The rebuild was the same as before ,cam lube ,EOS the change was Rotella 40T. I Have no letters behind my name , but I did not fall off a turnip truck last nite.There is a high rate of failure and it is being linked to the oils and the mods related to the additives. So I am not telling you nor anyone on this site what to use or not use.Just sharing info I have gained and what product I think is best for mine and my clients that trust me to both enlighten and perform the maint. on their boats to the best of my ability. As far as I am concerned you can run Quaker State,The Boat Dr. dont care,but i will put the best oil and filter that I can buy on my stuff................billy ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 3:45pm
A few points: - Modified engines with more aggressive (higher lift) cams, and more importantly, stronger valve springs are certainly more susceptible to failure with the newer oils. This is due to the greater forces that exist between the cam and lifter. - The reduction of the zinc/phosphorus additives has been a gradual one. The process started in the mid 80's since most motors by then had gone roller. However, it hasnt been until very recently that the standards have all but eliminated them from most modern oils. The 15w40 Rotella (my oil of choice) is now included in that group, where a year ago it was not. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/ - This article in HotRod is a good read. I didnt inspect my old cam very closely- but I doubt it would show serious signs of wear. Upon disassembly, it was clear that the motor had been well maintained- and thats more than half the battle. The older grades of oil (from just a few years ago) that had been run in it surely contained more additives than the current oils do, so it was adequately protected (even with the Fram filters  .)
The point is that the standards keep reducing the additives, so those of us with flat tappet motors just need to be careful. Those of us with bigger cams and springs need to be extra cautious. Its not about spending more money (Rotella oil and Wix filters are very economical), its just a matter of staying informed. I havent built enough motors (1) to have experienced any failures, but Ive heard the stories and Im not taking any chances. I'll be switching to the straight 30w or 40w. ------------- |
M3Fan wrote:Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 4:17pm
|
Found some more info here. Looks pretty serious. You'd think PCM would say something, with thousands of units in the field?
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,21461.0.html - Dodge Forum ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 4:27pm
|
Another
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0606_understanding_motor_oil - Pontiac Site ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 4:39pm
|
M3Fan, sounds like you opened your mouth and planted your foot or shoulkd i say FEET.
And you should have read these articles before playing games and acting as if we were all doing the CHICKEN LITTLE DANCE. There are problems and they will affect your motor, get your head out of the sand and at least listen to some of the advice that shows up here. With our engines running 4400-5k RPM with stock marine cams and generally very mild modifications, is there a reason to really panic on this whole oil with zinc thing? I hope you read those reports and you now have a different mindset on this issue. Be careful of the words that you post here, some of the newbies take them as law.And the last thing I want is for someone to harm an engine on account of; "The Boat Dr. Said So" ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 4:49pm
|
Boat Dr, cool it. Please point out where I even expressed an opinion either way? I did nothing but ask questions, clearly prefacing it with a disclaimer about being a devil's advocate. I've heard you were a good guy from a few guys at the reunion- let's not spoil your image here. I think it's important that we're always asking questions and questioning common thinking, and that's what I'm doing here. Looking at issues from all sides. I'll refrain from typing a more livid/profane response at the moment. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 5:27pm
I think you were asking for it 
Doc (and anyone else interested): I just got off the phone with a tech from Valvoline. Valvoline Racing oil was the other brand that I was told still has the zinc additives (in addition to the Rotella), so I wanted to hear if they were making the same switch with their multigrades. Their official answer was NO. Their racing oil says "NOT STREET LEGAL!" right on the bottle, and the tech explained that it does not have to meet any API standards. He said all of their racing oils (straight and multigrade) all contain the zinc. I like the multigrade since it offers more protection at cold startup- so it looks like I will be switching to Valvoline Racing. The tech said that NAPA carries it. It doesnt look like its offered in 15w40 though- so the question is, should I go with 10w30 or 20w50? 
------------- |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 5:38pm
|
boat dr VS M3Fan, newest CCF fued???
So basically (factory options for CC) every engine PCM has made to date has a flat tappet cam??? ------------- |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 5:45pm
|
Tim, flaming is different than putting words in my mouth as if I were fabricating some big stand against Zinc or something. "ZDDP Sucks! It actually ruins your engine!". If I had said that, then "Dr. Overreaction" would have had a valid retort there. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 5:55pm
|
I'll refrain from typing a more livid/profane response at the moment
Do whatever turns your crank.You asked the question about the high hour motors and the amount of wear, my queestion to you was; If you would have read the reports of the failures first would you have asked that QUESTION, also the wording .... Mountain vs. Mole Hill - Zinc Oils I feel this is indeed a major problem that needed to be adressed, this is the reason I posted, not trying to slam nor degrade your knowledge, but as I try to do on this site.....SHARE KNOWLEDGE/GAIN KNOWLEDGE.... That sword cuts both ways,for me to become teachable I have to admit I am IGNORANT to certain facts,and this is who I am. My Dad had a saying; Ignorance is NOT KNOWING Stupidity Is NOT WANTING TO KNOW I have both of those charactor defects,I just try to keep the in balance.......boat dr If I offended you , for that , my humble regrets............. Your profanity is not needed to get you point across..................billy ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Munday
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 6:06pm
|
My answer is yes,flat cam one lobe down another going when pulled apart.Mobil 1 1000 hour motor changed to Mobil at about 750 hours
what a mistake,ran mobil in my dragbike it was worth about .075 of a second by my tests and evey little bit helps there,so I started using it in SN to avoid the mid season oil change.when I got the new comp cam there was a little tech sheet in there explained exactly why you need the additives and which oils had them at that time I chose rotella about 300 hours on motor since Good oil good filter lucas additive for me Munday |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 6:07pm
I believe the recent SBC's (Excalibur, and maybe the Apex and 5.0 HO base motor) are rollers. The 6.0 ZR6 is surely roller as well. Im going to call Cam Research and see what they recommend for weight with the Valvoline. ------------- |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 6:28pm
That's the info I was looking for. A specific case of an already broken-in camshaft on our engines failing because of this. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 7:07pm
|
Also, back to a question regarding diesel oil ratings- the diesel oil rating of the oil I have in the boat right now is "CL-4". Since "L" comes after "I" (CI-4 apparently has ZDDP) I'll assume my diesel oil has no ZDDP in it since it's a newer blend (CL-4). Looks like I'm stopping at Napa on the way home for some racing oil. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 7:22pm
|
The new ratings apply only to multi-grade,the straight grades 30T & 40T will not carry the designation....CJ-4, These have the additives removed.
30T & 40T will retain the old formula.............boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 7:29pm
|
boat dr, your southern slang is really confusing me. "I" "J" "L" ???
"additives removed" means it doesn't have the zinc, the old stuff did. they don't add it then remove it. Forget the designation, straight (diesel) 30T & 40T has or does not have zinc? Let's keep it simple. Multigrade no longer has the zinc, need to look for the "racing" oil multigrade stuff? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 7:31pm
|
I just got off the phone with Cam Research. They confirmed what we're discussing as well with the zinc additives and the flat tappet cams. They recommend the Valvoline Racing (and also confirmed that the Rotella was good up until very recently). Specifically, they prefer the 20w50 in a boat regardless of climate. They seemed to think it has more zinc in it than the 10w30. They didnt think I would see a big difference in oil pressure coming from the Rotella 15w40 (maybe a little at start up). Im currently running 60-80psi once warm. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 7:40pm
He's referring to the API (American Petroleum Institute) standards. Each standard gets a new letter (I came before J came before L). Each subsequent standard has mandated decreased levels of zinc (not sure which standards made the biggest jumps).
Correct.
Doc is specifically referring to Shell Rotella-T. The 30-T and 40-T still have the zinc. The 15w40 apparently does not.
For the Rotella lovers, they can still get it in straight 30w or 40w with the additives. Another choice would be to go to an "off road only" oil that doesnt have to comply with the API standards. Valvoline Racing is one such oil, there may be others. Their blends (10w30 and 20w50) still have the zinc additives. ------------- |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 7:51pm
|
Any concern with the 50W side of the 20W50? I think my manual actually recommends 20W50 for low temp operation, but I'll double check. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 8:02pm
That was my concern. I think my dad used to run 20w50 in the '92 though. Thats what the tech I spoke to at Cam Research runs in his boat as well. I thought PCM's official recommendation on the Fords was to run either 30w or 40w (depending on air temp). I went with the multigrade because its supposed to have improved significantly in recent years. Id guess thats why its recommended on the new motors. ------------- |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 8:11pm
|
I'll have the answer tonight but I know my manual has 3 levels depending on the temp for oil recs. 40W, 30W, and then I *think* 20W50 but it's for some ridiculous temperature like 20F and below.
------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: tullfooter
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 8:19pm
|
My head is spinning.
By what I've read here, which was quite entertaining, and after talking with one of our show team boat drivers, I think I'll be looking for the Valvoline 20W-50 racing oil for my 454. He has a 454 in his 95 Malibu and it just turned 3000 hours without a rebuild and has been running the Valvoline racing strait 50. We have been pulling 4-7 barefooters behind this boat weekly since it was new. Not too shabby. Tull ------------- Play hard, life's not a trial run. '85 BFN '90 BFN White Lake, Michigan |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 8:34pm
|
wish mine had been taken care of like that all its life! what marinization is the '95?
------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 9:36pm
Joel, thanks for asking the question and Tim, thanks for making the phone calls. I've been trying to decide what to do with oil at my next change. 35 hours on the new motor, running Valvoline 20w50 racing oil. Looks like Cam Research believes in it and thats where my cam came from so I'll stay with the Valvoline. My oil pressure with the 20w50 is 80 cold, 60 warm at idle and 80 warm with any rpms at all. I am running a high Volume(not high pressure)Melling pump. I origianlly had some lifter/rocker noise at cold startup but that seems to have lessened quite a bit now with a few hours on the motor. My local Autozone has the Valvoline Racing oil on the shelf although their filter selection sucks. ------------- |
Posted By: my90sn
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 10:01pm
|
My Engine Manual states a recommendation for 10W30 or 20W40 or any good grade automotive oil of correect viscosity which has an API classification of "SE", except for 460 and 454 and high temperature installations. It also gives a chart: Prevailing Daytime Temperatures
0*F SAE20W "SF" 32*F SAE30W "SF" 90*F SAE40W "SF" I am in Nashville where the temperature yesterday reached 100* and is likely to hover between there and 80* for the rest of the season. According to my PCM Manual 20W40 is the best for my 351 as far as PCM reccomended in 1990, BUT what I have learned here is that I can not find enough zinc in 20W40, so maybe I should use the heavier 20W50 Valvoline Racing. However in the fall and spring when the temperature is 60-75 I should probably use the lighter weight 10W30 VR. If any of this is wrong let me know. Either way I must drain the Moble1 that I have used for the past 25 hours immediatly, I claim Ignorance - Im a CC newbie in training. Does the saying "Once you go synthetic you must stay synthetic" have a valid point? Surely it will not out weigh the needs of the cam.?.? I don't know. Thanks for starting this M3Fan and all that have replied - I seriously needed the lesson. Hopefully 25 hours of 915 has not damaged my 351. 
|
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 10:12pm
|
90
what does it say for the 454? Thanks ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 10:30pm
|
Just checked my 2000 SN manual. Regardless of engine brand, it says straight 40 for 50+ degrees, Straight 30 for 32-50 degrees, and 20W50 for 32 and below.
Just got back from Autozone, where I purchased 5 quarts of Valvoline 20W50. It has the older label which doesn't say anything about street legality. What's really reassuring is that it says "Contains ZDDP" right on the back!!! Pretty much leaves little to doubt. I'm currently draining my CL-4 15W40 after about 3 hours of use! ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 10:46pm
I would have agreed with you based on PCM's recommendation in the manual, but Cam Research said they prefer the 20w50 regardless of climate. Either way, I doubt you can go wrong with the Valvoline Racing. Personally, I wouldnt hesitate to get the Mobil1 out, especially after hearing Munday's story. You have to do whats best for the cam. ------------- |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 10:53pm
|
Sorry to have created a monster here guys!!!!!
Would love to agree with you Tim,BUT, gonna run the 40T, am trying to order a 5 gal. bucket of the stuff,down here we call it "rat holein'" This is just in case the decide the current formulation is too good or the feds say " you gotta change that because it cause cancer in the SNAIL DARTER.........boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 10:57pm
Alan, my pressure is only slightly lower running the 15w40. Not sure what I get when cold, but I see 60-80 once warm. Cam Research didnt think I would see much difference with the 20w50, so Ill try that next. I wonder how much of the difference can be attributed to the HV pump. Im afraid im uneducated on the pitfalls of high oil pressure- what are the drawbacks? Can you blow a seal or make the oil frothy/airy? Glad to hear your clatter is getting better as the engine breaks in. I get a few seconds of noise at cold startup, but it goes away quick. Much better than last year where it was fairly constant- I must have done a better job setting the preload when I did my roller rockers. I buy most of my oil locally (its expensive to ship) but the filters are much cheaper online. I buy Wix in bulk from http://filter1.com/ - Filter1 . Orders over $50 get free shipping, and the 51515 that we use was only $3.48 last time I ordered. ------------- |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 11:01pm
Does anyone know if my SBC Excalibur is a roller motor and what oil should be used or if the Zinc is required? The manual indicates SAE 15W-40 "SM". ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 11:04pm
Sounds about right for you, Doc! Im sure that the 40w will work great for you, especially down there in the swamp where its hot all the time. The cold starts with a heavy grade oil scare me a bit- we try to stretch the season here in New England until the (high) temps are only in the 50's. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-08-2007 at 11:09pm
The SBC went roller in '88 for GM cars, and '96 in GM trucks. Im assuming that has trickled down to the marine stuff by now- but it might not hurt to put a call into PCM. If thats the case, then the extra zinc isnt required (but it wouldnt hurt either). ------------- |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 12:56am
Benj, I am almost sure that GM cars (at least V6's and V8's) all had roller cams by '87 and trucks by '88. In 1996 (as far as trucks go anyway) the Vortec head was introduced. Is it possible you can be confusing these two events? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 1:04am
Buffalo, Malibu used Mercruiser marinization up to production year 1997. After 97 they switched to Indmar. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 1:20am
|
I had a friend with a 1993 Jimmy with the 4.3 V6 and Vortech heads, all stock. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 1:22am
They certainly weren't using Mercruiser exclusively in 97. I've been in a 97 Response with the Monsoon. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: my90sn
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 1:35am
My 90 PCM Engine Manual does not clearly specify the 454 recomendations. It does say "We recommend 10W30 or 20W40 or any good grade automative oil of correct viscosity which has an A.P.I. classification of "SE", except for 460 and 454 and high temperature installations." The temperature chart I quoted in my first reply I left a note out. *SAE40W for 90*F and above * Recommended for ALL engines in ALL applications. Probably not much help, but the manual leaves alott to be desired. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 2:16am
|
I switched my boats to Valvoline Racing 20W50 as of late 2005. I did a lot of reading to make that decision.
In my '63 I had already moved to 20W50 conventional as I found that with 10W30 my oil pressure dropped at idle. With the 20W50 it holds at around 25-30 lbs. which is fine for that engine. I prefer running the multi weight to strait 30 or 40. Better flow at startup, more protection at high rpm's run in a boat. Just my opinions. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: racintj
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 2:25am
|
nutty, TRBenj is right, the truck motors didn't get the roller until 1996, unless you got the Vortec. The TBI GM truck motors still had flat tappets. Not sure about the marinized motors.
TRBenj, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but does it bother you running the oil pressure with the 20-50. I just hate seeing that needle so high all the time, especially when 30psi is plenty anytime. Thanks for doing the research on the Valvoline, I have always ran Valvoline in everything else. Funny thing is, I have some V racing oil in the garage now. Just never looked at the label. M3Fan, you mentioned about our motors only turning 4500 rpm and mild cams, but the difference is these motors are ALWAYS under a load. Extreme pressures on these lobes all the time. You have handled it well. ------------- Every day above ground is a Good day. Lakeland, FL |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 5:08am
Yes, the GM 4.3 engine had Vortec heads heads prior to '96 but the V8's did not. 96 was the year GM started putting Vortec heads on the V8. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 7:44am
|
Thanks Nutty and 90
Nutty, you said that GM went to roller in '96...does that mean that the '95 Tull mentioned is essentially the same motor I have in my '88 or did mercruiser match up different parts inside? Thanks again ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 9:57am
I don't really have an answer for you onthat Tim. Back when I was shopping for parts there was a thread that argued the High Pressure pumps build more heat. I talked to my engine builder and he contended the HV pump help draw heat away from internal engine components because of the higher flow of oil. He also said that was his opinion and unsubstantialed but he's been building engines for a long time. He and I selected most of the internals together, so far so good. ------------- |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 11:28am
This is exactly my rationale for running the multi. We ski from April-November if we're lucky in Chicago. With the engine drawing in 43-50 degree water from the lake as well as starts with air temps in the 40's and 50's it seems like the multi is the best fit. I've heard that the 351 can blow rear seals with straight 40W in the cold- can anyone verify if this is true? ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 1:39pm
I dont know enough for it to bother me. I need to read up more on the subject to find out the drawbacks of high oil pressure. For now, if thats what Cam Research recommends, thats what I'll run. ------------- |
Posted By: racintj
Date Posted: August-09-2007 at 2:01pm
|
I wouldn't think that anything 60 and under is a problem, but I've blown oil filters at just above 80. I just don't like to see the pressure that high when it is not needed. I will be curious what your pressure is on the 20 50. Good point on the CamResearch recommendations, if they say that's what to run on their cams...just do it. ------------- Every day above ground is a Good day. Lakeland, FL |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: August-10-2007 at 12:44am
Actually I can't take credit for saying that the trucks didn't get the roller 'til '96 (which is true for the most part). You can thank TRBenj and racinj for that bit a factual information. I did some research last night and this morning to verify and sure enough they are right. Except for a few exceptions, trucks didn't get roller cams til '96. Car engines started getting rollers in '87. The engine Tull mentioned is a big block so I don't know when they got them. Since the car engines had rollers and trucks not, I would assume they come from different assembly lines. So which one of those lines are the marine engines pulled from? I've always thought truck but I could be wrong. Or maybe there's a dedicated assembly line for marine engines. I called the Mercruiser Headquarters in Oklahoma. The tech I talked to gave me a part number for a cam for a 95 Mercruiser 5.7 Magnum Skier (which is the engine I have in my boat) but he couldn't tell me if it is a roller camshaft. I will make a few calls to dealership service departments and find out what I can and post the results. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: August-10-2007 at 5:18pm
|
Spoke to a tech at PCM today, the Excalibur does not need the Zinc additive, also asked about the proper oil spec for the 15W-40 (5W-30 below 50deg) as depending on where you look PCM calls for "SJ", "SL" or "SM", he indicated any of those specs are fine.
They do not recommend any specific brand of oil, Havoline is what is used at the factory. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: August-10-2007 at 11:18pm
|
Okay, I have made several phone calls to verious places including Mercury Marine, Summit and several other places that deal in marine engine parts. Here's what I've found out. If you want to be sure of what your engine came with (roller or flat tappet), right down your engine serial number and call the local dealership service dept. Give them all your information. In any given year from 88 to 97 (and maybe beyond) your marine engine (depending on model and serial #) could have either a flat or roller cam. Don't trust anyone who says that all of any particular model has a factory roller cam. Especially if it falls below a 97 year model. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: August-11-2007 at 12:51am
BFN, I was able to get my hands on a Mercruiser parts catalog and here's what it seems to indicate: In 95 the 454 was designated as the 454 EFI Ski Gen V engine. It has electronic fuel injection but no roller cam. It was the only big block available for that year under Mercruiser. In '96 the designation changed to 454 Mag MPI Ski Gen VI. This engine did come with a roller cam. Part of the reason for the boat Tull mentioned being able to achieve 3000 hours was due to the electronic fuel injection. FI engines last longer due to better fuel atomization and more precise control of fuel and ignition. However, I'm sure the oil used did help the camshaft to live longer. Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-11-2007 at 1:21am
I'm certain, but along those lines, I can add we've been skiing regularly behind a carburated indmar 351 powered 88 MC PS with 2900 hard hours, and no symptoms, tranny and engine have never been opened. There are always fliers in the distribution. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: August-11-2007 at 9:59am
|
Nutty, good info and research... thanks!
Gotta, that's how I like to take care of things Y'all may have guessed already...I'm gathering ideas for my winter project ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: August-11-2007 at 11:52pm
Munday; What weight Mobil 1 were you running at the time? I only ask because I'm a Mobil 1 freak. I've used nothing but Mobil 1 since the mid eighties in literally everything I've owned that is a four stoke. That includes lawn mowers and pressure washers. Never a problem of any kind. Mobil 1 website specifically states that the 15W-50 Mobil 1 is reformulated to include even more of the ZDDP additives for race and high performance engines that would require the extra lubrication. FWIW, I've run that 15W-50 M1 in my boat since I've owned it. That was at 450 HR's and now approaching 1300. Pressure is 40 PSI idle and never seen higher than 60. I also run probably 75-80% of the time at 4000 RPM or higher for my barefooting so I by no means baby this thing. I plan on calling Mobil next week to talk to somebody to confirm and find out about the lesser weight oils. I'll post the results. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 12:19pm
|
I just ran my boat on 20W50 for the first time yesterday. Oil pressure was certainly high, between 60 and 80 psi the whole time. When the motor was completely warmed up, it would back down to around 45-50 psi at idle. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 1:05pm
Thats about what I see right now with the 15w40. Glad to hear the 20w50 isnt much different. I swung by NAPA last week to pick some up- they didnt have any in stock but could order it... price was $5.70/qt! Did you find it any cheaper? ------------- |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 1:26pm
|
Not sure which 20W50 you are looking for, Autozone has the Valvoline VR1 Racing 20W50 for a bit over $3 a quart. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 1:36pm
|
Yep, Autozone. Just over 3.00/qt. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 1:52pm
Ive heard good things about the VR1, but thats not what Im looking for. I noticed it has the API seal on the bottle, though Im not sure which standard it meets. The tech I spoke to at Valvoline said the true racing oils dont have the API cert, so can contain higher levels of ZDDP (and are marked off road only). Maybe Ill put another call in to them for clarification. ------------- |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 2:02pm
|
Just happen to have a quart of VR1 20W50 here in front of me.
"Ashless anti-wear additives and ZDDP provide ultimate wear protection" "API Services SM/SL/CD" It does not say off road only. It may be the single weight oils that are marked off road, not sure. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 2:41pm
|
I figured the off-road packaging was just the newer label! Dammit. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 2:45pm
My concern was that the VR1 has the API SM cert, so it is street legal. I just spoke with a Valvoline tech again, and he said the reason the VR1 meets the API spec is because of the detergent package. The conventional (non-street legal) racing oil has a reduced detergents package that prevents it from meeting the cert. That oil has a recommended oil change interval of 500 miles, as opposed to the 3k mile change interval with the VR1. Both the VR1 and conventional racing oil have high levels of zinc and phosphorus (though the conventional has slightly more with 1400ppm vs. 1300ppm). I'll go with the VR1, either the 20w50 or a mix of 20w50 and 10w30. Its also good that the VR1 is $2 cheaper per qt. ------------- |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-13-2007 at 2:51pm
|
Tim, thanks for the research. I'm glad I got the right oil. What a production this has been. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: whiz05403
Date Posted: August-14-2007 at 2:26am
|
Gents, great posts, good learning for all. Does anyone know what Valvoline filter to buy to replace the Fram PH8A for my 96 GT40?
Also I just got talked into running MO in my 2003 Ram with the 5.7 Hemi, is this motor a roller cam or flat tappet? Also I just put in MO in my GT40 for the first time after the truck oil change, after reading other posts I added STP oil treatment. Will this be enough to get me through to the next change or should I change to the 20W-50 Valvoline now? Thanks in advance. ------------- |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: August-14-2007 at 11:24am
As for the filter, some other good options would be the Motorcraft FL-1A or the Napa Gold 1515. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-14-2007 at 11:49am
Yup- I cant remember if the Valvoline filters are any good or not. The Motorcraft, Mobil1 and Wix (NAPA) are all safer bets. If it were me, Id drain the Mobil1 and put it in another motor. Then again, you may be OK. Im sure that the new Hemi is roller- flat tappets are way old-tech. ------------- |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: August-14-2007 at 1:47pm
OK, I just talked with Joe at Mobil and questioned him about this subject. He told me that there are a few synthetic Mobil oils that are safe to use for flat tappet cammed motors: M1 15W-50 M1 Extended Performance 15W-50 M1 High Mileage 10W-30 M1 High Mileage 10W-40 ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-20-2007 at 12:58pm
I changed over to the Valvoline Racing VR1 20w50 this weekend. I would have tried a blend of the 20w50 and 10w30, but couldnt find the lighter weight locally. According to my oil pressure gauge, there was no difference between the 15w40 and 20w50. I get 50psi at idle, and 60-70psi at speed. ------------- |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-20-2007 at 3:25pm
|
Sounds like it will work fine for you. I'm always nervous about mixing oils so I'm happy you stayed with the straight 20W50. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 20th Century
Date Posted: August-21-2007 at 2:41am
| What about the Mercruiser or Pennzoil marine oils? Anybody run those? I have some '05 Rotella 15W-40 in my boat right now, but was going to go with the Pennzoil marine of the same weight. I have seen it at West Marine(price not too bad if you can believe it -12.99 a gallon). And Pennzoil is a Shell product. I have also heard good things about Mercruiser oil, but I'm not sure who they source from. I am just curious why no one is looking to go with marine specific oils. |