Help- Cranks won’t start
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51087
Printed Date: May-15-2024 at 7:54pm
Topic: Help- Cranks won’t start
Posted By: CCFcourt
Subject: Help- Cranks won’t start
Date Posted: April-08-2023 at 5:15pm
|
Hello team, I’m stuck. I filled up a full tank of gas but my 94 ski nautique started on first use of the year, ran for a quarter mile in the lake, then sputtered and died. Got it to start one more time to get me almost back to the launch point then died again and would crank but never start. I took it in and they replaced the original ignition breaker on the dashboard and said it started multiple times for them on land so they called it good. I picked it up for the holiday weekend and can’t get it to start. It cranks forever but never fires up. I sprayed starter fluid into the barrels to test and it fired then quickly died as it exhausted the starter fluid. I replaced the battery and all spark plugs and put a spark plug tester on each one showing consistent spark. Mechanic is closed for the holiday weekend so am trying to get it going so the family can still enjoy the boating weekend here in Texas. I don’t know what to test next, from my limited experience I have the basics of seeing fuel shoot into the barrels when I pump the throttle, seeing spark when testing the plugs. Where do I go from here? This is the PCM 5.8 HO pro Boss electronic fuel injection system. Much appreciate any input. -Court ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Replies:
Posted By: samudj01
Date Posted: April-08-2023 at 7:22pm
|
I’m not the best but will start…sounds like a fuel issue if you have spark and it will fire with starter fluid (prob want to ditch the starter fluid and use a little gas). You say it sprays gas into the primaries if you pump the throttle? Will it fire then? I would check that the fuel pump is pumping fuel. And that the anti siphon valve isn’t bad or that a filter is clogged. I don’t know if this model has low pressure and high pressure pumps but if it does I bet you have a bad relay or pump. ------------- 78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409 Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-08-2023 at 7:50pm
|
Looking at your old posts, you have the infamous, dreaded by some people ProTec system with throttle body injection. Since it fires and then quits, it sounds like your fuel pumps aren't working or the injectors aren't firing. Start with the easy stuff and check that your 12.5 and 15 amp breakers on the back of the engine have about 12 volts in and 12 volts out. Your 60 amp breaker is good, otherwise you'd have no power to the ignition switch and dash If they're providing power thru them check your relays You have 2 relays PCM part number R13011. One is for the fuel pump and one is for the ignition. Same relays as the later GT40 engine. The easiest check is to replace both at the same time. Don't swap one for the other because you need 2 good ones to make the engine run. Some only has 1 for the fuel pump, I don't know the reason for 1 or 2. A NAPA/Echlin part number which could be cross referenced to a lot of other companies is AR-174. Most any auto parts store should have them or be able to order them. Not knowing what's open on Easter Sunday, maybe you can still salvage a boat ride and if the relays don't fix things, it's always good to have a couple of spares for them. PS......if your ignition breaker on the dash, that the marina replaced was bad, when you turned the key the boat would do nothing, it wouldn't crank at all and nothing else would work on the dash, so that wasn't your problem  Hopefully this gets you somewhere. And like Dave said above, the anti siphon valve or some other tank related issue (clogged or broken suction line in the tank) could be keeping fuel from getting to the pumps.
|
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: April-08-2023 at 8:52pm
|
Gents thanks for the replies today. I will check relays next as you suggest. After cranking the engine without it starting today, I noticed afterwards when ignition was off that I was hearing a clicking sound (is that a relay?) occurring about every 3 to 7 seconds for at least a minute. Is that normal or a strong clue that I have a relay problem? Few questions: I can take the flame arrestor off and then crank the engine and see fuel squirting into the barrels. If I was having any relay problem or fuel distribution issue I wouldn’t see this spray of fuel correct? It seems like a fuel problem but trying to understand if seeing fuel squirt rules that out? Second, if you tell me no it can still be a problem because of quantity or timing or mixture somehow, then do I need to be cranking engine to see those voltage levels or should that happen with just the key in accessory mode pre-start? How do I get to the anti siphon valve and what/how am I looking to check? ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-09-2023 at 8:03am
|
So from what I get reading this, you have fuel squirting thru the injectors and you have spark, but it won't start unless you spray some starting fluid . Then it runs for a few seconds or so until it dies? Does the fuel squirt right till it dies or does it quit squirting, then the engine dies shortly after that? (Might be hard to determine) The 12 volts in and out of the breakers is there as long as the battery is hooked up. The key can be in your pocket and you'll have 12 volts at the breakers. If you turn the key from OFF to the RUN position, you should hear the fuel pumps run for a few seconds, then shut off. That would be the normal response since you didn't go to START The first turn of your key is to the RUN position, is that what you meant by accessory mode?
|
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: April-09-2023 at 8:51am
|
Yes runs for a second then dies with starter fluid. Does not appear to quit squirting. Yes to run mode. ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-09-2023 at 8:28pm
|
Starter fluid is far more explosive than gasoline, it will fire on a weak spark that gas will not fire on. I keep cans of it on hand and use it also but you need to know you can fracture pistons with starter fluid. It explodes hard so use it with care. Watching fuel squirt into the manifold sounds more like a carbureted engine? Makes me wonder if you got some water into the gas tank. If you had a small bottle of gasoline and could pour a little into the engine will it run or fail to start? If it starts you can keep it running by adding more gas. Be careful as a back fire could ignite the boat quickly as you pour fuel. Something like a lighter fluid can with gas in it could work well to provide some gasoline to see if the engine will run on better fuel. Just trying to narrow down the search for failure. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-09-2023 at 8:46pm
|
So it sounds like the big question is why it doesn't start since it has spark and it's spraying fuel when you're cranking it over. Even with low fuel pressure it should at least fire on it own and maybe quit without having to use starting fluid. Normal pressure for the TBI is around 15 to 20 psi with both pumps working. I've seen numbers as low as 13 thrown around by different people though Send me a PM with your e mail address and I'll send you a copy of a PCM manual for the ProTec engine. It's not the greatest, but it's better than nothing.  Can you feel both pumps running with your hand when the key is taken to Run or Start? The anti siphon valve is right where the fuel line hooks to the tank, It looks like a barbed hose fitting but there's a little spring loaded ball check valve inside of it. You also have an internal screen in the low pressure pump that requires some pump disassembly to get to it. If the computer doesn't sense that the engine is running by seeing at least 300 rpm, it'll shut things down. That signal comes from the interrupter that sits where a distributor normally would. Lots of possibilities that'll take some time to investigate and work through. Sooner or later someone will come along and tell you to replace the system with a carburetor and distributor but you're not necessarily to that point yet. Most every ProTec thread here on CCF deals with replacement not fixing because parts aren't supported by PCM or anybody else. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-09-2023 at 11:45pm
|
Does the Pro Tech system have a fuel port on the feed line to check fuel pressure. A pressure check while cranking would answer fuel delivery questions to the throttle body. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-10-2023 at 7:23am
|
Link below shows the schrader valve for checking fuel pressure Page 4 part #3 Link to parts manual with other ProTec parts Page F6 http://www.marinepartsexpress.com/PCM_Schematics/PCM%20Marine%20Engines.pdf" rel="nofollow - link And with a e mail address to send it to, there's also a Pro Tec manual that describes how it works, that i can't give a link to. |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: April-10-2023 at 9:34am
|
I feel his pain. ProTec and throttle-body EFI. The dreaded double whammy. Parts for those systems are NLA — except second hand. JQ
------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-10-2023 at 4:54pm
Strange as it may seem, you can buy an aftermarket replacement for both the LP fuel pump RA080018 and the HP fuel pump RA080022 from SkiDim or a variety of other places. The LP is the same part number as a GT40 LP pump
|
Jonny Quest wrote:Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: April-17-2023 at 12:41pm
|
Thanks for all the inputs. Circling back for posterity to help others… It turns out all components are fine. It was truly bad gas. Had to drain the entire tank and replace fuel filter. Now works! Glad it’s all running again well. Getting to age where I don’t have as much time to enjoy fiddling with a ‘94 boat. Unfortunately starting to think about selling… ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-18-2023 at 7:48pm
|
So you just filled it up with some "bad gas". Makes me wonder what went into the tank to be bad enough that it wouldn't even run.
|