Hi Everyone,

I have a 1989 Ski Nautique, and I have a small trace of water in the oil. The oil it not like a milkshake, but on the dip stick, I see a bit of white looking reside/goo with some bubbles higher up on the dip stick. The oil on the lower part of the dip stick looks in pretty good shape.

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The engine is still running fine, but I pulled the plugs, and the plug from cylinder no.1 (closest to driver seat) had some water droplets on it. The others were dry.

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I have removed the starboard riser, and when doing so, I noticed that the riser bolts seemed a lot looser than I was expecting. I was prepared to have a battle to remove them, but the took almost no force to loosen. So I thought that might have been the issue - leaking gaskets. However, I don't see any rust marks inside the riser or looking down into the exhaust manifold. It has a smooth carbon/soot layer. The riser gaskets also looked in good shape. I haven't removed the exhaust manifold yet.

I have owned the board for about 15 years, and I can see that the riser gaskets were installed the wrong way round (blocking the incorrect port!). So I'll have to change that, since I assume that will affect the cooling? Is that a major concern?

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I was assuming my issue was a bad riser gasket... but they look better than I was expecting.

Any advise on what to check next? A compression test? Could a bad head gasket cause this water leak?

If that passes, I assume I should remove the exhaust manifold?

FYI - I live in South Africa, Cape Town, where we never reach freezing temperatures, so a crack due to that is not possible.

Thanks in advance,

Greg

Like you're thinking, do a compression check since a bad head gasket could cause water in the cylinder and it can leak by the rings into the oil.

Take a picture with the valve cover off.

With the riser gaskets installed the right way, the top of your risers will be a lot cooler to the touch 

Awesome, thanks

Will post photos and the results of the above ASAP.

Has the engine been overheated in the past months?  Engine overheats can crush your head gasket and cause a leak into the chamber.  It can also crack a cylinder head and do the same.  When the heads get hot they expand more than normal.  This expansion crushes the head gasket and it will fail soon after.  Usually not right away but within the next 20 times you use it so many times people forget about the overheat that caused the gasket to fail.  With this type overheat the crush happens where it was the most hot so Cylinder 1

can fail while cylinder 3 is fine.  If you check torque on the head bolts the bolts around the failure point will be looser than all other head bolts.  With the valve cover and exhaust off you could check torque in few minutes.

If the #1 cylinder has been leaking coolant into the chamber the cylinder head chamber will be very clean and the piston head will be very clean.  When your fuel charge explodes as the engine runs it will turn the water in there into steam which steam cleans that chamber and piston head.   The larger your leak the cleaner they get.  A large leak would foul the plug and you would have a dead miss.  Maybe stick a scope into that #1 cylinder and look at the piston head and valves to see if they have been cleaned by steam and the valve could be rusty.  You would see this looking into the exhaust port.  The exhaust valve might be rusty.

You said the engine runs good so maybe the problem is minor but water should not be on the spark plug.  Good Luck

Thanks Guys. There were no signs of overheating (I always keep a very close eye on the temp gauge always between 150 and 160). About a year ago, I saw my normal running temp was sometimes climbing about 10 degrees higher than normal (after slowing after a hard run), then I replaced the raw water pump which had worn bearings. But I don't think that was in issue. It never climbed of 170.

Yesterday I wanted to do a compression test, but with the plug removed, there were very small puffs of water misting out the plug hole when cranking.

This morning, I removed the exhaust manifold, and there are no signs of any water (no rust steaks, etc). They actually look in very good condition. The exhaust port on the head looks clean too (black).

Then I noticed that there was a lot of water in the cylinder. So much that I had to suck out with a syringe (via the spark plug plug hole).

Could it be an intake manifold leak between the water passage and intake port at cylinder 1? Could a bad intake gasket cause a leak like this?

I'm going to pull the intake later today.

So I removed the intake manifold, and the oil/water mix is worse than my initial photo showed on the dip stick (which was before I headed back to the dock).

Lots of milk shake all over  And the "heat shield" was loose! Lying in the position shown!

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I can't see any obvious signs of a leak in the manifold gasket at cylinder 1 and no signs of any rust in the intake ports (intake or head).

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After cleaning the goop off the intake, it looks like this. Clearly a hole in the "exhaust passage/bypass" but it seems like that doesn't lead anywhere - the exhaust ports on the intake are solid cast iron i.e. don't seem to be used? Based on this, should I replace the manifold anyway, even if it is not the cause of the water leak?

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So maybe it is the head/head gasket?

Can I still do a compression test in this state of disassembly? Refit the distributor?

Feels like I am going down a rabbit hole

edit and take the RWP belt off if you haven't already done that

Great, thanks. Really appreciate the assistance

I'll post my results ASAP.

The 2 blue lines are pointing at what I think you're saying are plugged. Ford didn't build it that way

Some intake gaskets blank off the crossover passage, some leave it open and come with small stainless steel spacers/blanks that can be installed when installing the gaskets, if somebody wants to block off the heat passage.

Leaving them open or blocking them off is one of those things that people will always disagree about, but in your case that big gaping hole makes up your mind for you or the guy before you that blanked them off.

Now as far as what caused the exhaust to burn through that cast iron.........that's a good question   

Being in South Africa, like Wilhelm Hertzog here on the site, I'd imagine you have the same availability and cost issues that he does, leading to some creative solutions.

Hi Keno,

Yes, that is correct. At the blue arrows, the intake is solid. Must have been the previous owner that had the intake blocked off, maybe after the exhaust passage burnt through? There was a sticker on the engine from an engineering shop... so the engine was definitely worked on at some point (more than 15 years ago).

When I clean the surfaces of the intake, I'll see if there is any evidence of a "blanking" operation on those exhaust ports. I'll also clean up the hole, to make sure than no rusting pieces can fall off in the long run.

A new intake will be double the price once it lands in South Africa So reusing the old one will save a lot of cash!

Wilhelm and I have chatted a few times in the past to compare notes

Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, I was not happy to see that amount of sealant used. I know the newer/better gaskets have their own "bead" to seal the water ports better.

If there was a leak from the water port to the intake port, wouldn't I see some rust in the intake port?

As mentioned above with the RTV silicone, just a SMALL bead around the water port is all that's needed...that and a good-sized bead on the "China Walls" instead of the cork or rubber options.

Thanks JQ. If I do replace the intake, I had my eye on the Edelbrock Performer 2181 (with carb adapter 2732). I believe it will fit under the hood without any changes to my flame arrestor, etc.

Thanks for confirming the gasket, and China Wall info

I think the problem hasn't been found yet.

So, I managed to do a compression test (just cylinders 1 to 4). It is an old gauge, so not sure how accurate it is, but at least it seems to show that cylinder 1 compression isn't lower than the rest. No 2 is actually the lowest. But in general they are all quite low?

1 - 115

2 - 95

3 - 110

4 - 100

A few things to note - not sure if it matters...The engine was cold and the cranking was slow (I think my starter motor is busy going - I have a new one still to be fitted). I did squirt a bit of oil into the cylinders.

If you do, make sure the engine is drained first, so a bunch of water doesn't get into the cylinders from the head when it's first lifted off

Compression may not be great but it's OK and you said the engine ran fine but you noticed the small amount of water back in the first post. And like you said it could be the gauge.

Finally, an update... but thing don't look good. I pulled the head, and I can't see any obvious issues there.

But inside cylinder 1, there was some surface rust, but one bright orange "bubbly" line.

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Cleaned it off, and can see a crack

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So time to start shopping for a new block / crate engine? Not going to be easy here in South Africa.

That cracked cylinder is very unfortunate.  Depending on parts availability and cost, a new block and a full rebuild would be my first suggestion.  After that, a drop-in remanufactured engine would be my second choice.  ATK Remanufactured Marine Engines is an option.  I know several people that have gone that route with good success.  I don't know what international shipping and duty/import taxes in S.A. would look like, but either way, it will likely be expensive.  Best of luck to you.

JQ

Makes me wonder if that block had been hydro locked at some point, water in the cylinder can cause extreme pressure, usually we see a bent connecting rod or broken piston from hydro lock.   

When they sleeve a cylinder they take a boring tool and oversize the cylinder to receive a pre made sleeve.  The sleeve is pressed in and the block is decked giving you a brand new cylinder finish.   It is a proven process but I do not know what parts and machine shop tools are available for you in Africa.   

Thanks guys. I have a friend in the marine industry, and he has already sent photos to his contacts to advise on a sleeve.

Also investigating the ATK long block options. But I think the shipping and duties are going to be very high.

Either way, in the mean time I'll strip the rest of the accessories and prepare to pull the motor.

Not knowing if the block is an 89 original with 34 years of corrosion in the cooling system or if it's a newer one, I'd get the whole block checked real good before sleeving one cylinder, since you probably wouldn't be too happy if it happened to another cylinder a short time later

Those pistons aren't original to an 89 PCM 351W so there's a chance the block was bored, oversized pistons used and there's not a lot of wall thickness left in any of the cylinders

Myself, I'm hoping you find something like Wilhelm did  

So using the Wilhelm's engine builder contact, I may have found a 351w long block that is in very good shape, with a performer (non-RPM) intake.  Price is also good.

It is automotive though. At least my '89 is standard rotation, but I have a few questions.

I would obviously fit all my marine accessories:

 - distributor (original prestolite)

 - circulation pump (bought from SkiDim a few years back)

 - carburetor (Quick Fuel M-600) with proper fuel line.

 - starter (Arco 70200)

 - alternator (original)

 - fuel pump (bought from SkiDim a few years ago)

 - oil pan? for clearance? Not sure if this matters in the '89 which is mounted "level"

Are the automotive block/heads compatible?
 - For my raw water cooling, I assume I should fit brass freeze plugs. In the block and head?

 - Is the marine camshaft different? Does it matter?

 - Any other internals that are different?

Anything I am missing... If it can't work, then I'll have to look at other options.

Thanks for all the help so far!

Timing cover......it gives a place to mount the Raw Water Pump bracket, the automotive one will be different

Flywheel.....your marine one is 157 teeth, automotive 351's were 164 teeth

Damper plate, you might consider a new one while everything is apart

With the Edelbrock intake, make sure you use the spacer plate you mentioned earlier, an Edelbrock 2732 or there are other brands  that accomplish the same thing. Use wide gaskets on both sides of the plate.

You mentioned the oil pan, it may take some comparing or a test fit in the boat, but if you swap pans, swap the oil pump suction tube and strainer to go with the pan and if you have an oil pan drain hose swap that over before the engine goes in.

And like you mentioned the freeze plugs in the block and the heads could get changed to brass. Steel will eventually rust out.

The camshafts aren't much different at all, but if for some reason you swap, make sure the lifters get swapped too and stay with their associated camshaft lobes.

Not really knowing anything about the new engine like amount of use it's had, what it has for internals, is it a rebuild etc makes it  kinda hard to talk about clearances, cams etc 

JQ

Thanks Keno and JQ for all the tips. At least is looks like the engine can work.

I'll discuss all of this with the engine rebuilder, and decide what I do and what he does

The long block has valve covers, but I plan to use my PCM aluminum valve covers (get them cleaned up and repainted).

Will also look into the new damper plate - only down side is that he price doubles by the time it gets to me But I also don't want to have a "new" engine that I need to pull again soon.

If looking at prices, there is a Sachs/Alto DA-106 which you have to trim, DA106A pre trimmed or an HGE 4K2C which also needs trimming and other more expensive stuff is out there too

Here's a link to a fairly recent thread with those brands discussed along with a few other things. 

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50285&PN=2&title=new-starter-which-to-get" rel="nofollow - link

Edit.....Greg reminded me that he has a PCM transmission so the plates mentioned above won't work.

He would need the pricey 15 spline damper plate from PCM

Is there an advantage to having a 'friend' buy the needed items in the US and then sending you a 'gift'?

So I had a look at the long block that is available at the engine rebuilder. I think it is a good option - price is good and I don't really have other options available

It has slightly different heads to mine. Older style rockers? Not sure if that is a big deal. It has been standing for 8 months - could that cause any internal rusting, etc? Anyone notice an issue with the engine?

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The plan is for me to pull my engine (at a friends workshop) strip all the parts from my engine and supply them, with the necessary gaskets. I'll probably clean up most of the parts (respray) as I supply them.

Then the engine rebuilder will fit them, respray the engine to "original" silver color and then test run the motor.

After that I'll fit it to my boat.

Those rocker arms are the older style rail type rocker arms from the 70's. Nothing wrong with them at all.

if the block is from the 70's also, you'll have a 2 piece rear main seal instead of the later 1  piece seal

That looks like a front sump oil pan in the pictures, so swapping pans and pickups should be in the plan

JQ

Or an electric fuel pump putting out 5 or so psi

Or maybe just blocked off while the engine is being rebuilt at the machine shop

Just make sure there's a fuel pump eccentric in place when the timing cover is swapped 

The eccentric and the timing chain need to be matched. If it's a 2 piece eccentric like your 89 should have, then you need a timing set for a 2 piece eccentric

Everything from the 89 could be swapped if needed.

That'll all get figured out when you have when the cover off.

Thanks Guys.

I'll check on the fuel pump /timing set. So if there is an eccentric in place on the new engine, then it can stay as is? If not, fit my '89 eccentric and the timing set = chain, and anything else?

Will my PCM aluminum value covers (86 onwards, raised oil filler) fit those heads? Are the clearances for the rockers the same on the different heads?

One more thing... My alternator has a lot of washers and spacers to get it to fit the lower bracket.

The lower mount is much smaller (shorter) than OEM, otherwise looks the same.

Could it be a automotive alternator? It has been working fine for the last 15 years...

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If there's an eccentric installed, then you can bolt on your original timing cover and install the mechanical fuel pump. The pump doesn't care if it rides on a 1 or 2 piece eccentric.

Your 89 valve covers will fit with those rockers and you know they'll clear the exhaust manifolds too...........and they'll look better too 

The alternator..............hard to say from the pictures if it's marine, any numbers stamped in the housing? probably no stickers with a part number?

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I'd say it's a definite "maybe" 

Cool, I am going to try get a proper spacer made for the alternator.

A few more questions... sorry for being a pain   My original engine has a 3-bolt balancer/pulley but the new motor has a 4 bolt.

I assume I should just swop over my parts? Looks like C9OE-6316-E2

I have read that the crank and balancer should match. But it is 28oz for all 351w engines, correct?

Then I'll need a full timing gasket set - I see this is available locally: Fel-pro TCS45008 or TCS45168.

Or are there better options to consider?

Regarding the oil at the exhaust ports... I'll have a better look as soon as possible. Could it me oil from the valve cover?

The other side:

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Swap your harmonic balancer to the new engine and use all of your old pulleys and everything will line up with no issues. Like you said all 351w's are 28 oz imbalance. 

Either of those Felpro numbers will work. The 45168 comes with a speedi sleeve for where the seal rides on the balancer snout. The 45008 doesn't have the sleeve. 

If you can get a Felpro 35019 gasket, it goes between the water pump body and the backing plate, if you want to check out the impeller in the pump while it's off. Depending on the pump it might take a little trimming. It's not needed if you don't take the backing plate off the pump.

That way you can use the complete oil pan gasket instead of using those annoying cork corner seals that come in the timing cover gasket set (they're for replacing the cover without taking the oil pan off)

Here's a thread of Wilhelm's with some related info and pictures along with some unrelated stuff 

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49691&title=ticking-noise-from-front-of-engine" rel="nofollow -

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49691&title=ticking-noise-from-front-of-engine" rel="nofollow - link

If by chance the new engine has a high volume oil pump, I'd test fit the pan first since typically the marine pan won't fit over the taller high volume pump.

So I have pulled the engine and stripped all the parts I need. Bust cleaning/painting them.

Now that I have the damper out, I can see that the springs are not a tight fit - they have some play. Should they be tight? I have not heard any noise or had any problems previously.

If I replace, are there other options for the other than OEM?

Keno, the DA106A that you mentioned - I think that is for the BW transmission with the 26 spline input?

I believe the PCM40A is 15 spline?

Here's where I get to say "oops"  

You're right, I forgot this was an 89 with a PCM transmission.

The PCM plate is over twice the cost, I'm not sure if there's an aftermarket version.

I suppose if it's been working good, you and the machine shop guys could determine if the little slop is too much 

To me, a little movement is OK, but you actually have it in your hands to look at

Hi Guys,

Just a quick update... I have been cleaning and painting all the engine parts. Rebuilding all the engine mounts, etc.

This week I'll drop parts off with the engine builder to fit them to the new engine.

Cheers,

Greg

Any advise on this harmonic balancer...

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- Leave as is?

- Hard chrome the surface?

- Speedi sleeve?

Yours does not look that bad to me.

We agree..................I'm a poet and don't even know it 

In the picture it looks pretty good.....all the ugly stuff is outboard of the outer lip or dust seal.

What timing cover gasket set did you buy or are planning on buying.

You mentioned Felpro TCS 45008 and TCS 45168 being available locally.

Like mentioned earlier, the 45168 set has a speedi sleeve included in the kit. The 45008 doesn't..

 

Thanks guys I got the same advise from a friend that helped me pull the engine.

I'll give it a light clean up.

I'll tell the engine builder to get the seal kit with the speedi sleeve anyway. Getting frustrated - the engine builder is taking long to commit to any dates Might consider doing the job myself if it takes much longer!

Do you think the seals in the 2 kits are exactly the same, or does the seal in the speedi sleeve kit match the large diameter required by the sleeve?

Back in Wilhelm's thread there were some measurements   1.875 shaft diameter before a sleeve and 1.900 after the sleeve.

Finally received the last of the parts

I bought a new damper plate, the new version, R140020.

Everything lines up well, but the plate is the same size as the outside of the flywheel. Is that normal?

I assume the starter gear will clear?

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I think the main reason for trimming the plate for a Borg Warner like a DA-106 was because the ears stuck out far enough that they made physical contact with the internal reinforcing ribs on some 351w bellhousings (they were far enough behind the flywheel that they hit the ribs), so the fix to work with any bellhousing was to trim down to the same OD (about 12 inches) as the original plates.

edit............deleted some questionable info

Here's a picture of one with internal ribs, yours may be smooth, but going back to the first sentence is the safe thing to do. Talk to whoever you bought it from. Everything in the advertisements says it fits

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The starter teeth shouldn't go far enough back to interfere

Thanks Keno. My bellhousing does have ribs - it is exactly the same as your photo. R142001. The PCM manual only shows this one bellhousing option.

I'll just make sure there is clearance when I fit it

The PCM parts manual shows only one option or part number  for lots of things that have had changes made over the years. Bellhousings  heads. block, intake manifolds for carbureted 351's, exhaust manifolds, carburetors, ECM's for gt40 engines all come to mind kinda quickly as having one part number but have seen changes over time due to suppliers making changes etc..

I think if they say the plate works, then it should but it's a good idea to check the clearance like you plan to do.

PS...........I'll post a picture of a smooth bellhousing later

It's not really all dirty and scuzzy, it's just just the camera angle or the lighting or maybe your eyeballs 

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Hi Guys,

Just a quick question... Is the bracket in this photo standard? If so, what is it for? Thanks.

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JQ

And here's a nice clear picture from an old thread.

Thanks Guys.

My boat never had those (since I have owned if for the last 15 years). I know the previous owner had to repair the muffler - maybe it was due to lack of these supports. But it has lasted 15 years...

The cam doesn't care what kind of eccentric is hooked to it.

Or an electric fuel pump and a low oil pressure cutout switch for safety reasons

Thanks Keno.

I think the electric pump is going to be much simpler than striping the front cover off again.

Looks like the Carter P4594 will work, and I'll get the oil pressure switch A68301.

I have a Sierra 18-8115 with 5/8"-18 male inverted flare ends.

So the engine is finally back in the boat!

Now time to do alignment and all the new wiring

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Hey Wilhelm, Its a Quick Fuel M-600. Basically a newer version of the Holley. Bought it a few years ago.Works great

Hi,

I have everything installed, and the motor is running, but not very well.

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Some notes on the current setup"

 - New Carter Electric fuel pump (with oil pressure switch)

 - Same Quick Fuel M600 Carb

 - New engine has a Performer Intake

 - The mechanic damaged the Pertronix ignition module (in my Prestolite distributor) by reverese polarity - he replaced it with a new one.

The symptoms are:

 - Cold start, the idle is a lot lower RPM and rough.

 - If I give a little bit of throttle, it will give a large backfire out the carb and stall.

 - After several starts, (warm engine), the engine idles okay, idles faster.

 - Warm starts are fine.If I give a bit of throttle, the engine runs rough, but as rpm increases it becomes smooth.

I have set timing to 6* BTC, and also tried 10* BTC (as per mechanics recommendation)

Carb float levels are good.

I have doubled checked the plug leads / firing order.

Any ideas? My possible thoughts (based on similar issue I have read online) are:

 - Pertronix ignition module is faulty

 - Sticky intake valve

 - Vacuum leak

 - Clearance between rockers and aluminum valve covers? The heads are different - are they compatible with my aluminum valve covers?

Thanks,

Greg

This is the Pertronix module...

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Your picture shows a Pertronix module part #91281 looking like it's mounted to a pretty rusty old plate. That module and magnet ring are for a Ford Motorcraft distributor. Can't see enough of the rotor to know what it's for.

The right kit for your Prestolite with a screwdown cap is a 91589 or the newer lobe sensing style kit that is 91581LS (there are also the cheaper 1589 and 1581LS versions). No magnetic ring is needed with the lobe sensing kits

Maybe due to parts availability in South Africa somebody years ago did some clever adapting and made the 91281 work and the shop replaced the module with one just like it or maybe the shop did some adapting after they fried the old one and didn't get it right.

Maybe it works just fine, maybe not.

I guess you'd maybe know what parts were in it before the module got fried and what are new

The 351 firing order used with a 302 cam, will give you an engine that's firing on 4 cylinders and runs pretty lousy, so if you didn't swap cams, a check of the cam's firing order is pretty easy to do.

Use a 15/16ths socket on the harmonic balancer bolt and turn the engine by hand in it's normal direction of rotation to get #1 at TDC on the compression stroke. A finger over the plug hole feels the compression build up as you approach TDC.

Now that #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke, put a finger over the #3 plug hole and turn the engine by hand 90 degrees and you should feel the pressure building up as it approaches TDC.

If you feel the pressure, you have a 351 cam and the firing order is 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8

If you felt no pressure buildup, put the engine back at TDC on the compression stroke for #1 and put a finger over the #5 plug hole and see if pressure builds up as you turn 90 degrees by hand.

If you feel the pressure, you have a 302 cam in it and would need to rearrange your plug wires to give a firing order of 1 5 4 2 6 3 7 8, then all 8 cylinders will fire when they're supposed to.

If that ends up being your problem, just say "Thanks MrMcD" 

Mark

It probably means that the engine at some point had an "aftermarket higher performance than stock" cam put in it, so the boat just might run a little better........... maybe.

Some were ground with the 351/late302 order and some were ground with the 260289/early 302 order and it causes problems like this at times.

Here are links to a couple of recent examples of the same problem

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50666&title=misfire-thoughts-351-in-the-shepherd-project" rel="nofollow - link

http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51302&KW=&title=67-mustang-with-289-ford-skipping" rel="nofollow - and another link