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Rudder "housing" removal??

Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50402
Printed Date: May-02-2024 at 7:52am


Topic: Rudder "housing" removal??
Posted By: wetskier2000
Subject: Rudder "housing" removal??
Date Posted: December-16-2021 at 10:23am
Next up, resealing the fitting that holds the rudder and rudder stuffing box. I disconnected the steering, got the rudder out and all 4 bolts. I removed the plate inside the hull but can't easily move the outside piece. I pried a little but am afraid of damage to the FG. Maybe a pipe or something to shove into the hole previously occupied by the rudder for leverage? Concerns about gouging up the inside of that piece? What say the experts?

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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier



Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 5:09am
You get that rudder port out yet?

I'd try some heat from a heat gun to soften up the sealant and instead of prying or driving wedges or chisels around the edges, like you might do on a fin or strut,  use a slide hammer  through the rudder port to get some good downward force.

It's probably pretty tight in the hole.

It's most likely the same sealant as your strut if they were both original and the strut came off easily from the sounds of it.


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 7:57am
Not yet... I decided to slide the rudder back in to get as much leverage as I dared, but no luck... I like your heat gun idea. I thought about heat but figured the hull might not appreciate acetylene. LOL

The strut was off before I even knew it. The fins took very small amount of convincing.

I think plan B will be just goop the bolts and put them back in, but obviously I'd rather reseal the entire piece since I know it's leaking.


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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 9:42am
Wow, reading your post was like an exact accounting of the same process I just went through a couple weeks ago, right down to the trepidation of prying the piece out.  Like you, all went smoothly to that point. Connections off, rudder out, four nuts off, inside plate off, and with a little persuasion, (they were gooped in there pretty good) the  four screws out.  Now the rudder port, ugh.  Thought that was the end of the project unless I got some great epiphany on how to get it out, or called on minds smarter than mine.  I was in the exact same spot as you, on my back, under the boat, not wanted to nick or chip the fiberglass.  I used the time and patience approach.  For what it was worth, (probably not much) I took a utility knife and cut out all the goo that was squeezed out along the edges and to the extent possible, scored the seam between the plate and the hull.  Then I "VEEEERRRRRYYYYYY GEEEEENNNNNNTTTTTTLLLLLLYYYYYY) used a screw driver to ever so slightly pry a little bit at a time, going around it like you would open a paint can.  Eventually, after several laps around it, if finally started to budge, breaking the seal ever so slightly.  Kept looping around and it finally came.  I dont think a direct downward vertical approach is the answer, as that would be attempting to break the whole seal at once.  I cant comment on the heat approach, but since it came from Ken, I am guessing it is a reasonable idea.




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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 3:44pm
Another removal technique is to hit your local hardware store and pick up a package of Wooden Door Shims.  These are about 1.5" wide and 8-10" long.  The pack will have about a dozen in it.  Usually about $4.
The shims start at a very sharp point like a chisel.  They widen to about 3/8" at the end of the 10" run.
Tap the sharp pointed shim into the gap between your hull and the rudder port.  Add another shim next to that and just keep adding shims.  Tap each in a little at a time going from one to another slowly increasing the pressure to split the rudder housing away from the hull.   My boat had 5200, the hard stuff, and the shims popped it right off.  It worked for me and the wood did not damage the fiberglass.
Once the port is removed I took a very sharp automotive gasket scraper and cleaned the rest of the old 5200 off the fiber glass to prepare for the new install.


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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 4:41pm
Have removed a number of rudder ports, some of the advice above is baffling. After removing the bolts and cutting the sealant with a utility knife as best you can, a BFH and a block of wood on the top side has always made pretty quick work of it. Even on a <5yo 5200 job.


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 4:50pm
With all that vertical space between his tank and the rudder port, I bet he can get a helluva swing, especially with a BFH Wink


Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 6:25pm
I dont have enough experience at this stuff, this was my first time, to be that bold. All I could picture was a foot diameter hole in the back of my boat.   Well, that and I really didnt feel like removing my gas tank, (at one point I was fearing it might come to that)  so I did the whole thing in cockroach mode.  Not sure if Rick's tank is still in or not.

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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 9:58pm
I was warned on this forum as to how strong that 5200 was so I was afraid I would pull off gel coat using the BFH.  If 5200 comes off that easy using the BFH method why bother with the weaker 4200 on install?

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Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 11:01pm
yes, tank is still out.. I was planning on using Boatlife  LifeSeal that I've used on other hull fittings.... Not the right stuff?

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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: December-17-2021 at 11:48pm
Many folks consider 3M 5200 to be the gold standard.

My company has several "brown water" work boats.  On board, I've seen cases of 5200 in the parts room.

JQ


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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited

Previous
2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow
1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow

Aqua skiing, ergo sum


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-18-2021 at 6:28am
Well, will ya look at that, like most things in life there's more than one way to do the job. Some might be easier than others Wink

Kinda like your strut bearing the other day or the fuel gauge replacement Rick.

I guess looking at your different recent threads on the strut bearing and the fuel level sender, I wonder why you seemed to go to the extra effort to slide the strut past the rudder and ask about level gauge removal and install without removing the tank if you were gonna remove the tank anyways to remove the rudder and port?

I think I'll just sit back and observe the upcoming what's the best sealer/adhesive discussion Wink


Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: December-18-2021 at 10:31am
Whichever sealant you decide on, make sure it has at least 1,000 ppm ZDDP.

-------------
_____________
“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”


Posted By: wayoutthere
Date Posted: December-18-2021 at 7:13pm
As mentioned above, shims and tapping them in,  spraying brake kleen speeds up the job considerably and using it has never cost me any gelcoat.   
Residual 4200 and 5200 come off thin as tissue with a razor blade as soon as you spray the brake kleen.

Imo 4200 is all you need (under the waterline) all your doing is sealing against leaks, the part in this case rudder port is held in place by clamping force.

Don't wipe off the 4200 that squeezes out, let it dry  then use a wooden toothpick or wooden skewer,
shishkabob stick and push it thru the sealant and around the base, it cleans up much nicer with no smearing or bubbles getting pulled in/ material getting pulled out and smeared all over the boat, trailer, driveway and head to toe like it does every time i open the tube.


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-19-2021 at 6:08am
Originally posted by wetskier2000 wetskier2000 wrote:

yes, tank is still out.. I was planning on using Boatlife  LifeSeal that I've used on other hull fittings.... Not the right stuff?

 

While I was sitting back I did a little reading. Here's a link to a Boatlife catalog. Your Boat Life Life Seal sure seems to fit in the category of being the "right stuff" especially if you have it already Wink

Is that what you used last year on the tracking fin, platform brackets etc ?

http://cdn.thomasnet.com/ccp/30783344/223441.pdf" rel="nofollow - link


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-19-2021 at 8:03am
yes. 

My dumb questions usually are centered around what makes the most sense for me. Can I accomplish the task in question successfully. What order is best to do these things... If I have to prioritize and leave things until after FL, how can I do that... For instance, I was very grateful to know that I could do the strut bearing without removing the coupling from the prop shaft. Despite the great idea on here to remove it, I pictured that as a really possibility of a crap show on something that had not been apart since 1997.

I truly appreciate the wealth of knowledge you guys have and are willing to share. Thanks!




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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-19-2021 at 8:04am
.....I really like the let it dry idea instead of wiping the excess off... just ask my work jacket I was wearing under the boat the other day..,,,,

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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-21-2021 at 6:26am
Rick

Been doing some reading elsewhere

U seem to have quite a project going on, maybe finished ?

Ford COE that was

Old

Rusty and 

Dilapidated



 I'll bet people would be interested in hearing a little about what I'd call a huge undertaking 

PS Nice boat in the background Wink


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-21-2021 at 8:25am
wow, that's an EARLY pic, no motor, crusty fenders, unpainted frame... that had to be about 2012 or 13...  It's 4 wheel drive and I intend to tow the boat with it. Not sure if it will make FL trips or not... Funny you wonder about it being finished... Not quite but getting close. It's at the paint shop right now and should come out looking like this photoshop...




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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-21-2021 at 3:17pm
Beautiful project, my buddy is building a COE also, he bought an original with a flatbed on it for hauling cars then he bought a low mile motor home with a 460 Ford powertrain.  He is blending the two, it will have the Old Look with the modern Ford 460 powertrain and running gear from the motorhome.  ( motorhome had an on board fire that totaled it so he got the package cheap but had no engine or running gear damage ) 
I keep telling him to install a Diesel so he will have more power and MPG.  Those old cab overs have really taken off, they make beautiful and rare projects that people remember.


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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-21-2021 at 5:36pm
More pictures needed Wink

My buddy Carnac seems to Rick's is a crossbreed of some Chrysler, Ford and Chevy parts (and probably some other brands too) with a fair amount of engineering and fabrication involved






Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-21-2021 at 5:58pm
I see what you did with the truck's name!

McD, does your buddy have a build thread somewhere?

Carnac is correct... Ford cab, 2002 Ram 1500 frame and axles, 1999 Corvette LS1 under the Peterbilt sleeper, some Studebaker parts, some Isuzu parts, lots of figuring stuff out...

32 pages of build thread live here if anyone has a few days to kill....

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1941-ford-coe-build.919826/

It's been quite a journey. The steering took me 9 months to figure out... This is what I started with...





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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-21-2021 at 6:01pm
And here's what it looked like before I took it apart for the body shop...




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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 12:18am
I don't know if my buddy has a site for his build, he did just finish a 73 buick 455 Stage 3 car, they are usually the ugliest body Buick ever made but his is so straight and the paint so pretty, a dark red and every single part looks like it just came out of the factory.  You could not build one this clean for $75,000 It is gorgeous, he did not drive it 200 miles and gave the finished car to his 40 year old son.   Heck of a deal, he just likes doing the build and he is retired.  I will ask him for a picture of his truck.  Last time I saw it the truck looked more like the one in your picture of the flat bed than a finished truck.

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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 7:34am
Originally posted by wetskier2000 wetskier2000 wrote:



32 pages of build thread live here if anyone has a few days to kill....

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1941-ford-coe-build.919826/

 

32 pages of good reading, but I think unless you're a member there, the link won't work Wink

Easy to join

They seem to have had some site issues over the years that affected lots of the pictures in your thread, but still a great read and an amazing, difficult project


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 8:43am
I understand the "like the build then give it away mentality"... I used the same theory on several Jeeps for my nieces and nephews... Buford, however, is staying with me for the foreseeable future... As my buddy calls him, he is truly an attention whore. Doesn't matter what I park near at car shows, people just flock to him. The only vehicle that stood a chance so far was a beautifully done 1941 Dodge COE.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the COE build and really wouldn't trade any of it. But if I had it to do again, I think I might look harder for a less rotted starting point. I learned A LOT fixing it which was fun, but it was a HUGE task.

This is probably my favorite picture from a car show that my buddy was able to catch...




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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 8:46am
oh yeah, one more thing... I'm going to try to remove the rudder port this morning.... Shocked

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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 9:00am
What a great boat hauler that truck is.  Gotta say you had a lot of vision when you started that project.  Envious of you guys that have the time-space-talent-resources to take on those kinds of projects.  I've got a friend back from my MA days (also on H.A.M.B so you may have seen him there) that has done a few cool projects.


37 Chevy - since sold


Drag truck - before

Drag truck - after

Roadster - before



Roadster - just about done


He's also done a couple of boats - this Donzi




And this 65 Stevens Flattie




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_____________
“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 9:26am
Originally posted by wetskier2000 wetskier2000 wrote:

oh yeah, one more thing... I'm going to try to remove the rudder port this morning.... Shocked

If you use a heat gun, a hammer or slide hammer, a screwdriver, a chisel and some shingles (shims), a pipe, and a razor knife you'll probably get it out Wink


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 12:37pm
... and a metal piece to protect the hull that my wife suggested.... I sliced, then pried, it hinted at moving. I used a BFH (deadblow), didn't seem to do much... Went back to prying, ever so slowly it started to move but even down an inch or so it still didn't just fall out... continue prying, eventually I could twist it a bit and get it loose enough to pull down on and out...




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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 12:59pm
I tried a couple things first before the idea of using the wood shims came to me.  They cut right through the 5200 on my 95 strut while doing no damage.   Glad you won the battle.

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Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-22-2021 at 4:16pm
All back together but it appears I have 1 leftover SS safety wire... I don't see where I'm missing the damn thing... I have a wire on the two rudder nuts (top of rudder and clamp nut). I have one on the coupling and one on the prop shaft stuffing box. I didn't see similar holes to wire on the rudder stuffing box... I'm probably missing something really dumb...

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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-23-2021 at 8:26am
I wonder if the rudder had 2 safety wires, 1 on the clamp bolt and 1 on the top bolt.....

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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: December-23-2021 at 9:47am
Originally posted by wetskier2000 wetskier2000 wrote:

I wonder if the rudder had 2 safety wires, 1 on the clamp bolt and 1 on the top bolt.....

Could be, I am sure there is not a real tight specification for that at the factory, but mine just had one wire through both the tiller clamp bolt and the top bolt.


-------------
_____________
“So, how was your weekend?”
“Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.”


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-26-2021 at 7:13am
So..........after all the sealant talk,  what did you use when you remounted the strut and the rudder port?

Boat Life, 3M, some other equivalent brand, bubble gum ?  Wink




Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: December-26-2021 at 7:44am
yeah, I used the boatlife stuff. All back together less the mystery safety wire and I still owe it an oil change... I bought a fancy dancy 12v electric oil removal tool after the last change last year but read the instructions this year... It wants the oil to be 104-125 degrees... Guess that'll wait til FL.. Of course, it's best to change the oil warm anyway, but just getting it changed I've always figured is better than not.

I miss the oil drain hose on the pan's plug that the 1987 had...


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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-26-2021 at 7:55am
Originally posted by wetskier2000 wetskier2000 wrote:

yeah, I used the boatlife stuff. 

Thumbs Up  


Posted By: wetskier2000
Date Posted: January-27-2022 at 8:22am
Truck paint is progressing!




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Current: 1997 Nautique

Previous: 1987 Nautique

          1964 American Skier



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