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GT40 Engine Questions

Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49269
Printed Date: April-29-2024 at 9:05am


Topic: GT40 Engine Questions
Posted By: agetech
Subject: GT40 Engine Questions
Date Posted: September-23-2020 at 8:29pm
Hi Everybody, I just now joined this site because it looks like there is a lot of GT40 engine knowledge here.  I don't own a CC, I just bought a 95 Hydrodyne with the GT40 engine.  I just sold an 89 Supra TS6M.   Wasn't really looking for a boat.
The boat has been sitting for a while because the previous owner has cancer.  It had a misfire when I bought it, replaced #7 injector and took care of that.  It also had engine surge at full throttle, so in went a fuel filter, plugs, swapped gray to black TFI, and blew out the fuel lines.  Engine runs good now.
Now the big question- Engine cold it will tach to 4800rpm and is strong out of the hole.  After it warms up it will only tach to 4600rpm but hole shot is still good.  Why is it dropping 200rpm?



Replies:
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: September-23-2020 at 9:25pm
Welcome.  Lots of GT40 folks here.

I honestly don't know what mine redlines at; I never go over 36 in the course anyway.  I'd be nervous going WOT with a cold engine; I never do it for more that a few seconds when hot anyway.  I assume you are barefooting.

Just throwing a few things out there that I would normally not think of checking first and then end up doing a lot more work when it could have been an easy fix....:
* I assume there is a difference in your top speed between cold and warm WOT, correct? 
* Have you verified the RPMs independently (PerfectPass or another RPM display)?
* Any difference in your fuel pressure at the rails (cold and warm)?
* Does the temp gauge work correctly (making sure there's no issue with the thermostat)?

I defer to the GT40 masters on this one and whether there's a theory.  Sorry, but I won't test mine cold and then warm to see if there is a generic difference....  ;)

BTW, I'm curious how you determined it was the #7 injector.  I have what appears to be a miss sometimes at idle (less so when warm) but it is gone as soon as I give it some throttle.  Wondering if it might be an injector but don't want to throw eight injectors at it to see if it's the problem....  


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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: September-23-2020 at 10:20pm
#7 Injector-
Took all the injectors out of the left bank (where I could definitely hear the misfire) and checked them with a 9 volt radio battery.  The dead one would not click.  Also blew carb cleaner through the good ones.  Some good youtubes are out on this.

Yes, top speed drops off from 46 to 43 mph.
Temp gauge appears to be working  fine, shows 140.
Next purchase is a fuel pressure gauge.


Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: September-23-2020 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by agetech agetech wrote:

#
Yes, top speed drops off from 46 to 43 mph.
Temp gauge appears to be working  fine, shows 140.
Next purchase is a fuel pressure gauge.

Normal thermostat for the GT40 is 160 (at least for the ones in Nautiques).  Don't think that would affect it though. 

From a fuel and ignition standpoint, I can't think of anything off hand other than lower pressure (not enough to make it stall, but enough to not let it get to highest RPM--pressure regulator).  But you'll need to get that gauge.  Our GT40 experts will need to jump in on that.

Another thing that comes to mind is your tranny.  Fluid changed recently?  I would expect less parasitic drag from the tranny when hot, but if there are no fuel/ignition issues, I'd look for other sources of drag.  My logical minds says your RPMs would increase when hot, not the other way.  But if something is failing, it could cause more drag when warm, such as a dying raw water pump that tends to seize up a little as it gets warm.  Alternator with the same issue, or even the water pump.

On the tranny, you could drop it in the water cold, and then turn the prop shaft coupling at the tranny by hand and see how loose/tight it is.  Then run it till it's hot, shut it down, and then try turning it again by hand and see if there's any difference.

Just a few things to consider as well....


Tks for the tip on the injectors.  I'll get my engine stethoscope out and see if I can hear any issue on each of the injectors at idle.


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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 5:32pm
Add 1 quart of ATF to your next tank of fuel and see if it clears your injector issues.   ATF automatic trans fluid is good for cleaning and lubricating injectors.  Won’t hurt anything and may help.

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Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Add 1 quart of ATF to your next tank of fuel and see if it clears your injector issues.   ATF automatic trans fluid is good for cleaning and lubricating injectors.  Won’t hurt anything and may help.

This is the kind of info I knew I could find here


Posted By: DVskier
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 6:26pm
Sea foam will also take care of cleaning injectors. 


Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 6:33pm
Increased heat does cause increased electrical resistance.  Maybe a traditional tuneup including new plug wires?


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 6:44pm
Originally posted by DVskier DVskier wrote:

Sea foam will also take care of cleaning injectors. 

That's what it states on the can! LOL


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/diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow -

54 Atom

/diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 7:18pm
Now that you got all kinds of info on cleaning injectors, you should probably define engine cold and engine warmed up if you want any kind of maybe useful answers to your original question Wink

Is engine cold something like you start it, idle 10 feet out from the dock and punch it?


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Now that you got all kinds of info on cleaning injectors, you should probably define engine cold and engine warmed up if you want any kind of maybe useful answers to your original question Wink

Is engine cold something like you start it, idle 10 feet out from the dock and punch it?

Launch boat, idle to dock, idle and wait for tow driver, idle out to river channel, then punch it.  About 5 minutes of warm-up time.  Will run up to 48-4900rpm and 46 mph.  About 45 seconds later tach drops 200rpm along with top speed.  No misfires or stumbles just looses top speed.  I'm thinking low pressure fuel pump is getting weak.  Boat has 2 separate pumps, no fuel module.


Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Now that you got all kinds of info on cleaning injectors, you should probably define engine cold and engine warmed up if you want any kind of maybe useful answers to your original question


While I was waiting for the big guns to load, I figured we'd pass the time talking about my issue.

So, it literally just slows down while at WOT. Real fast, or gradually such that it's not really noticeable without looking at the tach?

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Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: September-24-2020 at 10:13pm
It's like somebody just pulled the throttle back a bit, sudden drop off, really noticeable.


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 3:29am
Excess Timing can give you the results you speak of. Cold the engine runs fantastic, better than ever. As combustion heat builds it can start detonating which robs a ton of power.
Not simple Pinging, but full detonating. Detonation can be quiet, happens when a cylinder fires the fuel charge before the piston is at TDC, this early fire tries to push the piston back down while 7 other cylinders and the flywheel are trying to push the piston up into the early explosion.
In detonation the engine runs great and then suddenly feels like you let partially off the throttle. The exhaust tone will change slightly also. If you wish to rule this out back your timing off 3-4 degrees and go see if the problem goes away. If the timing is over advanced at high RPM it can create a hot spot in one or more cylinders which will start glowing red while running hard, this red hot spot starts working like a spark plug and ignites the fuel charge before the spark plug sparks.   Any rough spot in a head chamber can be the source of a hot spot. Too hot of a spark plug can be a source of a hot spot. Serious racers would polish the head chambers and the valve and piston heads to eliminate any sharp corner or rough spot that could start detonation. Newer engines with Aluminum heads pretty much eliminated the need for this polishing as they come out of production pretty darn smooth today with the CNC machines doing the work.

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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 5:15am
Originally posted by agetech agetech wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Now that you got all kinds of info on cleaning injectors, you should probably define engine cold and engine warmed up if you want any kind of maybe useful answers to your original question Wink

Is engine cold something like you start it, idle 10 feet out from the dock and punch it?

Launch boat, idle to dock, idle and wait for tow driver, idle out to river channel, then punch it.  About 5 minutes of warm-up time.  Will run up to 48-4900rpm and 46 mph.  About 45 seconds later tach drops 200rpm along with top speed.  No misfires or stumbles just looses top speed.  I'm thinking low pressure fuel pump is getting weak.  Boat has 2 separate pumps, no fuel module.

So the engine isn't really cold, it's been warmed up before punching it 

You could take some timing out of the engine like MrMcD said but, it's a gt40 complete with all those electronic controls including a knock sensor and it'll take the timing out automatically if the computer decides it needs to which may be what's happening.

You could start by making sure the timing is set where it should be.

What octane gas are you using?

What happens when you slow down to idle speed and punch it again?

Do you have the 301 page gt40 service manual like what used to be in the reference section?

Questions, questions  Wink


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 12:43pm
Good point Ken, his description of the engine laying down while under full power sounded like typical detonation, you are correct if it is Fuel injected the computer controls timing.

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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 1:29pm
And even then the computer can only do so much-









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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 5:17pm
Gary what caused your engine failure?

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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Gary what caused your engine failure?

The guy he bought it from did

He bought it like that for a project  Wink


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 6:47pm
Going to check timing next time out.  Still need a fuel pressure tester.  Will report back!  Want to get it 100% before winterizing.


Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 7:39pm
What he said Wink.  Heads were already rebuilt so they were clean,valve covers rockers,push rods, block sludge wise were clean. But the oil left in the pan was nasty. Bearings worn but not scored or damaged. Crank only required a polish. Injectors were gone but new in the box Motorsport ones were included.LP pump making noise. I have new pumps and several ECM's  When I get it running I'll keep an eye on everything and test the knock sensor. Something made #8 go bad and it's failure spread debris through several other cylinders

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by agetech agetech wrote:

Going to check timing next time out.  Still need a fuel pressure tester.  Will report back!  Want to get it 100% before winterizing.

Since you didn't ask and didn't say whether you have the gt40 manual, is it safe to assume you know how to check the timing on the gt40 since it's new to you and a little different than what you might be used to?


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 9:49pm
I can check the timing.  Was a powered equipment mechanic in the Air Force.



Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-25-2020 at 10:08pm
I can't comment on the boat applications but the same Injection system was used in many Ford Cars and Trucks, OK, a similar automotive system that looks like the Marine version. In those applications we saw many melted pistons in #8 cylinders. The plug wire routing allowed #7 and #8 to cross fire in automotive applications. Maybe it is happening in the GT40 Marine engine also? If cross fire is happening you will find Halo's where the spark is blowing out of the wire. The Halo looks like it's name, a ghost like 3/8" halo on the wire. If you see one the wire is cross sparking. Good Luck.

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Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-26-2020 at 11:15am
When checking timing on a GT-40, don't forget about that little puck, thing, I can't remember what it's called, but you have to unplug it to get back to base timing.


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-26-2020 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Bri892001 Bri892001 wrote:

When checking timing on a GT-40, don't forget about that little puck, thing, I can't remember what it's called, but you have to unplug it to get back to base timing.

Snout??


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/diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow -

54 Atom

/diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<


Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-26-2020 at 11:34am
Spout

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-26-2020 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Spout

Thanks Gary. At least I was close! 


-------------
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54 Atom

/diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique

64 X55 Dunphy

Keep it original, Pete
<


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: October-08-2020 at 9:11pm
Okay-
Put a fuel pressure gauge on the engine, turn key on pressure goes to 40psi then drops to 0 when pump cycles off.  Maybe 1 out of 8 cycles pressure will stay at 40psi.  Weak high pressure pump?  Took vacuum line off of the pressure regulator and no signs of gas, sucked on the vacuum line and it holds vacuum.  
Went to the lake to do some testing but overheated at dock after launch, new impeller on order, was missing 5 blades.  Caught it before any damage.  Was going to replace before next season anyway.  I have a pump on another boat I can borrow for a few days until I get the parts.



Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: October-08-2020 at 10:46pm
First, pressure does not evaporate when the key is shut off.  There is a spec, it will say something like pressure should hold for five minutes and slowly decline over the next 30 minutes.  If you are losing pressure instantly you have a large leak.  Either the pressure regulator is stuck open or your injectors are not closing.  Black smoke on a restart points to injectors.

On the impeller failure you need to find all the parts the tore off.  Chunks of the old impeller will plug your cooling passages and cause overheating.  Takes time but dig for them till you account for a complete impeller.
Mark


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Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: October-08-2020 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

First, pressure does not evaporate when the key is shut off.  There is a spec, it will say something like pressure should hold for five minutes and slowly decline over the next 30 minutes.  If you are losing pressure instantly you have a large leak.  Either the pressure regulator is stuck open or your injectors are not closing.  Black smoke on a restart points to injectors.

Mark

I ran the pumps for over a minute and the engine started fine with no black smoke.  I think the injectors are OK.  But the pressure is definitely leaking off somewhere.  I don't know why the pressure doesn't drop to 0 every time.


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: October-08-2020 at 11:23pm
To run the pumps over 3 seconds without the engine running would mean you set up by pass power to the pumps?   They automatically shut off after 3 seconds if the engine is not running.  It is a safety feature on all fuel injected engines.

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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: October-08-2020 at 11:31pm
If you have a mechanics stethoscope I would listen to the injectors while the engine is running.  Each injector should be making a very specific snap snap sound as the injector opens and closes while running.  If one is quiet, and your engine still runs strong, one is not closing.  Could be more than one.   Another way to test the pressure regulator is to block off the return line.  Your pressure should go much higher and stay there because it has no place to go.   Be careful how you block it off because the system may see 80 PSI or more blocked and you could create a high pressure gasoline spray gun doing this if your block off blows out.
I have seen guys just clamp off the rubber return hose with a simple clamp.  This can damage the hose so don't clamp too tight.


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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-09-2020 at 6:39am
Originally posted by agetech agetech wrote:

Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

First, pressure does not evaporate when the key is shut off.  There is a spec, it will say something like pressure should hold for five minutes and slowly decline over the next 30 minutes.  If you are losing pressure instantly you have a large leak.  Either the pressure regulator is stuck open or your injectors are not closing.  Black smoke on a restart points to injectors.

Mark

I ran the pumps for over a minute and the engine started fine with no black smoke.  I think the injectors are OK.  But the pressure is definitely leaking off somewhere.  I don't know why the pressure doesn't drop to 0 every time.

If you figure the injectors are good and the regulator is good, I think maybe you have a check valve internal to the pump that's kinda not working every time and lets the pressure bleed backwards after the pump is off.

What's the fuel pressure when the engine is running? 

You mention 40 psi with the key on, but no mention of pressure when it's idling (should be around 31) or at high speed low vacuum conditions (should be around 40 at full throttle)

Sounds like you never got to high speed because of the impeller problem.



Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: October-09-2020 at 5:42pm
I ran the pumps with the key on and the ground wire at the test connector.   Ran them several times, sometimes fuel pressure would hold.  Never got to test full throttle fuel pressure, engine got hot at dock.  Engine runs strong but I think it has more in it.  


Posted By: 2001Sunsport
Date Posted: October-09-2020 at 9:48pm
I just went through this with my 1995 Supra Comp. Fuel pressure would drop to zero immediately after key off. Tough to get any pressure when turning the key and the pumps primed. Replaced the regulator and we're good to go. Sits around 30-35 after key off.


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: November-04-2020 at 11:36pm
Final update on this engine.  When replacing the impeller I decided to replace the thermostat too, only there wasn't a thermostat there.  The PO or the POO evidently had cooling problems and instead of replacing the impeller the just removed the thermostat.  With the new thermostat and impeller the engine stays rock solid at 160 degrees on the gauge.  
Replaced the Intake Air Temp Sensor after I read in the manual that it would cause a high idle if that sensor was bad.  Tested with an Ohm meter and the sensor was erratic, readings were jumping all over the place.  
Took it to the lake yesterday and I think it is cured, engine sounds really strong and pulls hard.  Got a top speed of 45 on the Airguides and Latnex.  
Now working on the exhaust manifold riser gaskets leaks.  25 year old bolts don't come out very easy.

Just wanted to let everyone who posted with help what the final outcome was!


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: November-05-2020 at 5:42am
I guess the "final update" doesn't include any info about your original question dealing with the loss of 200 rpm between cold and hot unless there's some reading between the lines to be done here Wink


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-05-2020 at 11:45am
Soak those old bolts in a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.  Pour some on and let it soak in, overnight or longer if you have time.  Re apply a couple times if possible.  ATF = automatic transmission fluid.
If you apply heat and then more of the mix it can draw the lube in deeper.  If you rush they will break normally if they are rusted firm.  Glad you got it running better, I am also curious, what about the lost 200 RPM.


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Posted By: C_Heath
Date Posted: November-05-2020 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Soak those old bolts in a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone.  Pour some on and let it soak in, overnight or longer if you have time.  Re apply a couple times if possible.  ATF = automatic transmission fluid.
If you apply heat and then more of the mix it can draw the lube in deeper.  If you rush they will break normally if they are rusted firm.  Glad you got it running better, I am also curious, what about the lost 200 RPM.

me2


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1979 Calipso Runabout (the boat that got it all started)
1988 Mastercraft ProStar 190 (sold)
2000 Pro Air Nautique/GT40


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: November-05-2020 at 6:10pm
Last time out, Tue 3 Nov, 65 degrees air temp, the problem is gone.  It may have something to do with the engine running hot, or the intake air temp sensor.
Got both risers off, 2 broken bolts, took the manifold to a friend  who is a machinist and he welded a nut to the broken bolts and got them out (right side).  Left side has been off before and was packed with RTV silicone.  Also, the water jacket on the exhaust side of the riser is almost completely blocked.  I don't know how the engine cooled at all.  I'll post a picture later.  


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: November-05-2020 at 7:28pm
I guess I can't post photos.  Or can't figure it out, keep getting error.


Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-05-2020 at 8:55pm
You can clean up those risers and manifolds pretty quick if you get a rubbermade type of container large enough to hold one. Being careful you can soak them in muratic acid- it will clean the insides of that crud. Keep an eye on them as you do it you don't want them in any longer than necessary. 

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: November-05-2020 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

You can clean up those risers and manifolds pretty quick if you get a rubbermade type of container large enough to hold one. Being careful you can soak them in muratic acid- it will clean the insides of that crud. Keep an eye on them as you do it you don't want them in any longer than necessary. 

Good to know!


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: November-11-2020 at 6:28pm
Exhaust manifold is almost completely closed at water outlet.  Hose is collapsed into manifold.



Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-11-2020 at 10:04pm
Guess someone got their money worth out of those hoses! Riser bolts come out ok?

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport


Posted By: agetech
Date Posted: November-11-2020 at 10:12pm
Only broke 2, both on the driver side.  Installed with stainless bolts and lots of anti-seize.



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