Unleaded gas
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: Common Questions
Forum Discription: Visit here first for common questions regarding your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48276
Printed Date: April-27-2024 at 7:04pm
Topic: Unleaded gas
Posted By: 359
Subject: Unleaded gas
Date Posted: December-16-2019 at 12:35pm
| How concerned should I be about running unleaded in my boat when the engine tag says to use unleaded only? It's an 1988 2001. |
Replies:
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: December-16-2019 at 12:42pm
|
Zippo nada zilch ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-16-2019 at 12:48pm
|
Matt, If you want to fatten the coffers of the "lead additive" manufacturer, then go ahead and use the snake oil. If not, then take Tom's advice above. EDIT: Matt, now I'm confused.
What type of fuel are you concerned with? Your post states unleaded twice. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
359 wrote:Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-16-2019 at 10:09pm
|
Here's a picture of a sticker from the mid to late 80's saying to use leaded only. Like has already been said, running unleaded is just fine in spite of that sticker. You might say they got smarter/got more experience and changed their recommendations as time went on and lead started disappearing No engine issues due to unleaded and at least Pete will agree with me that 10% ethanol will present no issues either. Well maybe one issue..............you won't spend as much on replacing spark plugs since they last a lot longer without being crapped up with lead deposits  
|
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: December-16-2019 at 11:30pm
|
[...zipping up flameproof suit...] The "lead" in the "leaded" gasoline is tetraethyl lead or "TEL". The TEL additive was used as an octane booster/enhancer. This meant that "cheaper" or less-refined gasoline could meet a higher octane rating than the same gas without the TEL. The main reasons that TEL was eliminated from gasoline were 1) lead is toxic to animals and the environment, and 2) TEL in the fuel adversely affected the ability of the catalyst to remove hydrocarbons from the exhaust. Laws were then passed making it illegal to put leaded gasoline into a vehicle marked "Unleaded Gasoline Only". As such, the major refiners simply stopped producing/selling leaded gasoline to the motoring public. 100 octane "low lead" gasoline is still available as an aviation fuel. One side "benefit" of TEL is that the additive is a type of lubricant for the intake valve guides. For many years, engines were designed to run with leaded fuel and intake valve guides performed as advertised. When TEL was no longer available in gasoline, some engines experienced premature wear/failure in intake valve guides that was attributed to a lack of lubricant. If you are worried about valve guide lubricant, there are fuel additive options for consideration. My personal favorite is made by Lucas -- Fuel Treatment and Upper Cylinder Lubricant. Snake oil? Not in my mind. You could always go to your local municipal airport and see if they will sell you some 100 LL av-gas... JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: 359
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 10:27am
http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Fryloc/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20191214_074755_zps8pzs9nh4.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 12:26pm
|
359: Go with quality "top tier" gasoline that is at least 89 Octane rating and you will be OK. If you can get "pure gasoline" (no ethanol) in your area, that is a better fuel for older engines -- as the ethanol is a solvent and can attack certain rubber components that were not specifically engineered for use with ethanol. A little Lucas Fuel Treatment couldn't hurt... JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 1:23pm
|
I've been running ethanol blended fuel in my 88 for 18 years and have never had a fuel issue yet ( knock knock knock on wood). I do recommend changing the main fuel line from the tank to the fuel/water separator and from it to the Fuel Pump with a Coast Guard to an ethanol approved fuel line as ethanol fuels will deteriorate the OEM neoprene fuel line. ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 2:12pm
|
JQ, I have a feeling you've been inhaling too much of that Lucas vapor or at least listening to too much of their marketing hype.  I, like Tim have had no problems with ethanol and Ken O has even said the same. I've been running it since it's inception in my 54, 64 and 77. Keep smelling that Lucas and keep their coffers full! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 3:41pm
|
JQ, I think you did a good job of explaining the fuel change away from Lead. One thing I think you may have mis understood. It was the Valve Seats that were failing not the Valve Guides. Lead lubricated the valve seats and enhanced valve seat life. Engine rebuilders soon figured out that an old engine that had been running on leaded fuel had no problems with un leaded gas. The theory was that years of running leaded fuel pounded enough lead into those seats that they were protected and worked fine. If the shop rebuilt head, and ground the seats while doing the valve job they would send out those heads and they would fail quickly, the valve seats would pound out and the valve heads would be recessed into the seats. The solution became installing hardened valve seats which avoided the pound out issue and lasted a full life. Prior to unleaded fuel the valve seats in the heads were cut right into the cast iron head material and this worked fine with leaded fuel but cast iron was not hard enough for un leaded fuel. Hard valve seats allowed them to fix cast iron heads so they would work with unleaded fuel. FYI: for propane or natural gas engines there is even less lubrication for the valve seats so it is mandatory they run hardened seats. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 8:50pm
|
Pete I think your being a little harsh. It is none of your business on what someone spends their money on. It is easy to sit back now and tell someone your opinions about the deletion of lead in motor fuel but in context, it was unknown at the time what would actually happen. PCM advised to use an additive in their engines,do you read your Subaru's manual and then do the opposite of what they recommend? I would not like to think that you do but once again that is your choice. Dad bought a new boat in 88 at today's equivalent of 43K. A couple of bucks a bottle in that context did not matter to keep a warranty in effect.   ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 8:57pm
|
It is my understanding that Ford started to induction harden their exhaust seats on cast iron heads which eventually would work through the PCM system. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 9:01pm
|
McD: Correct about the valve seat failure after the removal of TEL from fuel. If my now aging memory serves...valve guides were also a problem for several years until engine manufacturers tweaked the metallurgy. When I was turning wrenches for a living, the phase-out of leaded gasoline was in full swing. I believe that catalytic converters were mandated in late 1970's model vehicles and forward. The full ban on leaded fuel was in the early 1990's if I recall. As for ethanol-blended fuels....I've worked in the refining industry since 2001. As a general rule, the refining industry does NOT like ethanol. Lots of reasons for that attitude -- some of which are obvious. Anyway, my industry experience has tainted my viewpoint such that I get up on a soapbox and encourage those around me to boycott ethanol when possible/reasonable. Some listen...many don't. I'll keep the message going.....where's that megaphone? JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 9:14pm
I believe it was 1975 for catalytic converters and air pumps. Dad had a 71 Caddy with a 472ci towing an Airstream. Got a great deal on a 76 with a 500ci. Didn't pull as well as the 71 so he bought a how to book on how to remove all the emission controls. Converters,air pump and removal of the gas filler restrictor made it as good as the 71. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-17-2019 at 9:45pm
|
Ethanol has some disadvantages and some advantages. Racers have figured out they can run more timing or turbo boost on ethanol and make lots of power. My son is a turbo tuner. He has an A6 Audi V8 twin turbo making 800 HP on Ethanol, he also has a twin turbo Corvette making nearly 900 HP. I know if he switches back to gasoline the Vette only made 738 HP. But it uses more fuel to do this so your miles per gallon will be way off running ethanol. JQ, I do not remember issues with the Valve guides at the fuel change to unleaded. They are oil lubricated, metered by the valve stem seals and should not be affected. You are correct though they migrated from bronze or cast iron to a Manganese Phosphate Valve guides for durability. Today in Diesel Engines they use the Manganese Phosphate to coat piston ring lands, Piston Pin holes and Valve guides because it increased the durability. It allows the parts to work with less oil and less wear, pretty cool stuff. ------------- |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 12:42am
|
My take on ethanol... Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) in motor fuels in the USA is commonly derived from corn. As such ethanol is “corn alcohol”. Ethanol blends very well with gasoline. However, ethanol is hygroscopic to the extent that it readily absorbs water from the air. Ethanol is also hydrophilic, so it dissolves in water. Ethanol likes to be blended with water better than with gasoline. The problems start when water is introduced into the fuel system. The bad ju-ju happens with ethanol-blended gasoline when the ethanol portion takes up enough water to cause phase separation in the fuel tank. “Phase separation” occurs when water in the fuel system is attracted to the ethanol, causing the ethanol and water to mix and separate from the gasoline. This ethanol/water mixture is denser than gasoline, so it sinks to the bottom of the fuel tank. Mix in a little oxygen and that ethanol/water mix is a good formula for rust. It doesn’t take much imagination to figure out how a little water can get into a boat’s fuel system. On the positive side of things, ethanol has some motor fuel benefits. Pure ethanol has an octane rating of 113. As such, using ethanol as a gasoline additive can increase the octane rating of the gasoline. This is one of the main reasons why ethanol is used. As MdD pointed out, racers have been using alcohol successfully for many years. One note, however, ethanol contains about 30 percent less energy per unit volume than gasoline. As a result, a 10 percent ethanol-gasoline blend will have 97 percent as much energy as gasoline. Other octane boosting additives are also used in the refining industry, such as MTBE or BTEX. MTBE is an acronym for Methyl Tert-Butyl Ether, and BTEX stands for Benzyne Toluene, Ethylbenzene and Xylene (aromatic hydrocarbons). MTBE has been blamed for groundwater contamination and its use in motor fuels has diminished significantly. BTEX is fairly widely used today but has also been blamed for groundwater contamination. Let’s face it…the "B" in BTEX is benzyne -- and benzyne is a known carcinogen. Refineries have the ability and technology to produce high-octane gasoline that has NO ethanol, BTEX or MTBE. It just costs more. John Q. Public wants low gasoline prices, so additives are needed. Of the 3 mentioned above, ethanol may be the best low-cost, environmentally-friendly choice for today's modern motor vehicles and engines. Personally, I prefer a higher-quality gasoline without the additives. I'm willing to pay more. Ethanol-free gasoline is available in Utah. That's all I put in my vehicles. It typically costs 20¢ more than mid-grade. I work very hard to keep ethanol-blended gasoline out of my Ski Nautique, houseboat and small engines. Now, how about Universal Basic Income? JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 8:53am
So..............just to get back to 359's original question Same answer as given earlier by a handful of people. No problem on your 88 engine
|
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 9:10am
|
Here's a link to an easy to read article from somebody not on their own self proclaimed soap box https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-a-brief-history-of-octane" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 1:14pm
|
Manganese phosphate wouldn’t last a few Revolutions but there have been lots of developments that do work. https://www.costex.com/Library/technical-bulletin/engine-valve-alloys-coatings.pdf |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 9:28pm
|
Some Reading about things Manganese Phosphate is used on today. The piston in this flyer is for the Cummins ISX, one of the most popular Diesel Truck engines on the road. These use over 30 pounds of turbo boost and are expected to live as much as one million miles. This is a long term coating used to help the part under severe pressure live. https://dieselcranks.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FP-Diesel-ISX15-QSX15-Powerforged-Pistons.pdf The initial comment was this was used on some Valve guides as an upgrade many years ago, at least back to the 1990's.. Piston applications of this are new in the last 10 years. The flyer does not state it but the same coating was also used to coat the piston ring landing on this piston. Same reason, they want the ring lands to live longer for better ring seal as the engine ages. ------------- |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 9:34pm
| Manganese phosphate as a coating on valve seats won’t substitute for removal of lead. I also remember unleaded fuel and cats coming together in 1975 when my parents helped my brother and I get a car. I wanted a civic or a rabbit but we wound up with a disappointing substitute that I’m ashamed to even mention. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 9:55pm
Must have been pretty bad Pete if a Rabbit was your top pick  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 10:13pm
|
I'm gonna guess it was a Ford Pinto And nothing on it was manganese phosphate coated 
|
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 10:29pm
Or the distant "cousin" to the Pinto: AKA "the pregnant lemon" ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-18-2019 at 11:21pm
Well I was speaking from experience........ ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: December-19-2019 at 12:54am
|
You guys. OMG how I love this place. KENO WINS! Well the reason I wanted a rabbit was that it could run from 0-60 in under 10 seconds and the forgettable Ford was closer to 12. I got my Rabbit many years later as a GTI, but zenithed at an early Honda CRX that turned into a serious trophy-getter. Yeah there wasn’t much in the way of corrosion protection on the Ford but it usually died of other causes before rust took its toll, especially in the hands of two high school boys. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: December-19-2019 at 7:59am
|
Look at that............................I'm a wiener At least that's what my wife tells me I should be driving one of these 
|
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: December-19-2019 at 4:45pm
Holy smackdown Mervin, what could possibly be more shameful then either of the above? Was it hard to drive with a constant wedgie? My first car was a 66' GTO that I bought at 15yo, my folks were horrified when I came home with it, as it turned out, justifiably so, lol ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: December-19-2019 at 4:55pm
| This was my Parent’s idea to buy an econobox for my brother and I to drive to High School a few miles away. We both bought our own cars as soon as we could save up enough. My brother wrecked the Pinto thankfully and I was able to buy a Euro Spec 3.0 V6 Capri from a returning serviceman and also a 1970 Dodge Dart 340 Swinger which we kind of slowly converted to a street racer. The Capri led me into a preference for small affordable sedans for road racing and time trialing as well as Solo II Autocrossing. The Dart was a real blast. The Honda CRX I eventually bought new was a giant killer on the auto cross circuit. I am a very late arrival on the boating scene, but it’s grown a lot on me and it’s kind of a substitute for having a muscle car in the garage. |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: December-19-2019 at 5:35pm
|
My parents were horrified by the race car garage that became of the space they kept the family car. We had two street lights one on either side of our house that represented a benchmark for burnout length. A few rear ends and driveshafts gave themselves up between them and necessary repairs took place in the driveway since nobody could afford to have anyone fix their cars. The neighbors were pretty glad I’m sure to see the four boys in my family head off to college and allow the tranquility of our street to return after the onslaught. I suspect many of us in this site gave our parents tremendous grief due to our natural mechanical curiosity. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-20-2019 at 3:16pm
|
Tryathlete, a follow up, the Mag Phosphate was never used on Valve Seats, it was used in Valve guides, the first application I remember for that product in automotive use. You and your three brothers actions sounds exactly like my house with two older and one younger brother. We did not have the street lights but it was common for our friends to light up the tires leaving my mothers house. It made our neighbors mad and my Mom liked all the boys but was fed up with the tire burning. A buddy Gene bought a 69 Chevelle SS396, 4 speed, 4.11 Posi, this was about 1972 the car was beautiful. He was at the house and my Mom knew Gene was going to lite em up on his exit so she walked outside and said, Gene, if you burn those tires in front of my house you can't come back! Gene smiled and swore he would not spin the tires in front of your house. Then he eased away in first gear, once in front of our neighbors house Gene shifted to 2nd gear and lit the tires up for about 100 feet in second, even my mom laughed because there were no tire marks in front of our home. With 4 boys it seemed we always had one car being fixed on the driveway. Your choice of a 340, 1970 engine was a good one, that 340 was probably the most powerful small block engine produced back then because of the X heads it used. Those were very quick cars and the engine was durable. ------------- |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: December-20-2019 at 4:27pm
| Thank you Mr. McD for bringing memories back to life. My favorite burnout was a friend Gary who had a 76 Camaro in which he installed a 427. I can still smell the rubber. My mother gave up long before yours did. She used to go to the strip with me. I miss her very much this Christmas. Thank you for the memories. |
Posted By: jterr
Date Posted: April-30-2020 at 12:27pm
| So after reading most of above post, I will fun non-ethanol unless can't find then med grade . |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: April-30-2020 at 10:23pm
Made me smile. There were 4 boys at my house and we were all in high school in the mid 70's. Muscle cars were our daily drivers. I had a Plymouth Duster with the "Twister" package. 340 V8 with a 4-speed manual. No posi diff, so burn-outs were easy. We went through a lot of tires. One fun trick was to buy a can of cheap re-refined oil. It was under $1 and made for great smoke. We would pour a puddle in front of each rear tire, grab 2nd gear, tach up the Mopar and slip the left foot off the clutch. Smoke and stripes. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |