Long Running Stalling then No Start Issue - GT40
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34248
Printed Date: May-05-2024 at 9:12pm
Topic: Long Running Stalling then No Start Issue - GT40
Posted By: StevoDevo
Subject: Long Running Stalling then No Start Issue - GT40
Date Posted: July-26-2014 at 1:02pm
|
Hi Guys, I own a 97 MB Sports LS200 ski boat with a GT-40 engine that has a Fuel Control Cell. For the past 2 years, the boat has been having this intermittent issue where it will stall while it's driving and won't restart for a long period of time (from hours to days). When it stalls while driving it won't restart. The motor cranks just fine and it turns over and over but never starts. This weekend was a great example. Yesterday we skied hard from 9-1pm just fine without an issue. Then when we tried to start the boat up after lunch, it wouldn't start. Just cranked and turned but didn't start. We couldn't get it going for the rest of the day. Had to be towed in! Earlier this week I changed the fuel filter and tube inside the FCC and yesterday it ran so much better than it has in the past. The boat maintained it speed at 15-20mph better than it ever has - it usually surged around at those speeds. My hunch is that it is a fuel delivery issue. The boat cranks great, but it sounds like not enough fuel is getting through. What's confusing me is that that last 2 times I've gone out it has done the same thing - ran great in the morning - sat for an hour at lunch and then won't start again after lunch! What else can I try? I'm going to try change the anti-siphon valve next, but I also read on these forums about possibly changing the relays and checking the fuel pressure. Wanted to get your thoughts on what the best next step would be - or if anyone has any ideas as to why the boat is acting like it is. I'd put money on the fact that if I threw the boat in the water today it would start just fine! Makes it so tough to troubleshoot! Any help would be appreciated! Steve |
Replies:
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-26-2014 at 2:02pm
|
I would buy or borrow a fuel pressure gauge and hook it up to the fuel rail on your fuel injection. Verify you have fuel pressure and it is the correct fuel pressure. I would have to look up the Pro Boss fuel pressure. Also verify you have spark to your spark plugs. Take one plug wire off and plug it into a known good spark plug, you can buy one for $3 and keep it on hand for testing. Hook the wire to your test plug, ground the test plug to the engine and turn the key, you should see the blue spark snapping on the plug with every revolution. Let us know the results and you can start chasing your problem. When I need a fuel pressure test I use the gauge set from my Air Conditioning tools, the gauge hooks up and reads the pressure just fine for me. I don't think my gauge can tell if it is Freon pressure or fuel pressure. All these tests need to be done while your engine is refusing to run. If it is in running condition you will not find the problem. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: July-26-2014 at 2:43pm
|
Take a look at this thread also: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis" rel="nofollow - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis I'd be thinking relays. Keith's TFI post towards the end sounds similar to your issue but it's less common. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: July-26-2014 at 11:15pm
|
It's the TFI If I were a bett'en man I would bet that if you open the engine cover for a while so it can cool it will start back up |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: July-27-2014 at 8:37am
|
Check for spark when it will not restart. Also you should hear both pumps do their prime cycle with just ignition on not cranking. This is always a good stating point. Next step is check fuel pressure if you have a suitable gauge. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 1:37am
Thanks for the idea. I pulled the heat sink and TFI out and the heat sink is full of oxidation of sorts. Do you think this could be the problem? Can I just soak the heat sink in bicarb soda to remove all the oxidation - or do you think I need to purchase a new one?  
|
gun-driver wrote:Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 10:24am
| See if it will clean up with a soak and maybe some aluminum cleaner and a wire brush first and replace the TFI. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 10:51am
Check the spark condition and fuel pressure when it does run too so when it doesn't you have a standard to compare to. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 11:00am
|
Lewy is right on though, many hundreds of dollars can be saved by bringing along a timing light and when it dies looking for a spark. If there is no spark you can stop looking at the entire fuel system, if there is a spark you can stop looking at the entire ignition system. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 12:59pm
|
I'll go buy a new TFI today. I found them at Napa. Is it ok to purchase one from an auto parts store? Are they the same for boats? Then will get onto the spark testing |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 1:19pm
|
I think the TFI is one part that actually is ok to get through an auto parts store. Read Keith's posts about the TFI about halfway down: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&PN=2&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis" rel="nofollow - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&PN=2&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis to make sure you're getting the correct one. Their was some business about the black vs grey, remote mount etc. |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 9:18pm
|
Thanks! I read the post and got the part number from Keith! So I went to Napa today and got the TFI and managed to get it off the Heat Sink. I still don't know if I should purchase a new heat sink or if my one should just be cleaned, or if it's just fine the way it is (see the pics above). If I need to purchase a new one - any idea of what the part number for that would be? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-29-2014 at 9:55pm
|
+1 on what gun driver says, just clean it the best you can,the money you save use for gas! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: July-30-2014 at 2:53am
|
That rather fury oxide coating won't transfer heat as well, so just get as much off as possible. ------------- |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-03-2014 at 8:13pm
|
Hi Guys, I've cleaned off that oxide coating and replace the TFI and just need to find a time to drop the boat in the water to test it out. I also replaced the 2 relays just in case! I did purchase a fuel pressure gauge, but have no idea where to connect the thing to test the pressure. Can anyone guide me in the right direction? Thanks a bunch! Steve |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-04-2014 at 11:49pm
| Standing at the front of the motor with your back to the windshield there will be a chrome tube (fuel rail) on the front left top of the motor with a black cap on it (schrader valve) . It's a valve like on a tire where you add air, that's where you can check the pressure. |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-07-2014 at 10:46pm
|
Hi Gun-Driver - thanks very much! Found the valve - now just need to take the boat out and wait for it to fail and then test the pressure! Should I test the pressure when trying to start the boat? Or just when the key it turned on (before the crank?) |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-08-2014 at 11:33am
| When you turn the key on pumps should run for 2 seconds. When cranking you should have 39 +\- 3 psi so I would assume that when you turn the key to on it should be the same. At WOT it should be 31+\-3psi |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-08-2014 at 8:49pm
|
Hi All, Well took the boat out today and skiied from 10-1pm without issue. Docked for lunch and then minutes after taking off and driving at about 30mph the boat spluttered and stalled and wouldn't start. Luckily I had my fuel pressure tester and hooked it up (a tiny bit of fuel came out as I was screwing it in but the pressure tester showed 0 fuel pressure. How could that be? I took it off and some fuel came out of the tester and then I reconnected it. Still 0 pressure when ignition was turned on. The fuel pump did prime but 0 pressure. What now? Could it be the anti siphon valve preventing the fuel being delivered to the engine? Or something else? Thanks for all your help! |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-08-2014 at 11:32pm
|
Dam! Did it finally start after a while? Did you check for spark when it would not start? Did you replace your TFI? I'll have to pull the book out I think I remember reading something to the effect of if the computer doesn't detect an ignition signal it won't allow the pumps to run.(safety) |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 3:49pm
|
Another update. So towed the boat back home yesterday and this morning I connected up the pressure tester and it showed about 30 psi when I turned the ignition key and then 40psi when I cranked it. The boat started just fine (first time). So yesterday on the water when I was having the no-start issue the psi was 0. So definitely zoning in on the issue here but don't know where to go from here. What would cause there to be no fuel pressure? |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 5:53pm
|
I just checked the book and I still believe it may be the TFI. What could be happening is on the initial turn of the key the pump will run but if the ECA does not get a signal during cranking from the PIP it will shut down the pumps due to a no spark signal. If it were me I would change the TFI. It seems like it runs fine till the TFI heats up then gets weak spark (hesitation/cutting out) then no spark which shuts down the fuel pumps. So you can go a couple of ways 1) Change the TFI see what happens 2) The next time it happens check for spark, if the TFI isn't sending voltage to the distributor the pumps aren't going to run 3) Next time you can jump the STO as in the picture posted then the pumps will stay running regardless of the PIP signal then it should have fuel pressure and if it doesn't start check for spark that way we can separate the issue, fuel or spark. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 5:59pm
|
The TFI has been replaced at this point though, right? Fuel Pump relay? The relay is going to be more prone to acting up when the engine is hot. That hasn't been done yet, right? |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 6:44pm
|
Hi Guys, I have replaced the TFI and did replace both relays at the same time. So if there is no spark, would the fuel pressure drop to 0? Also, every time this has happened has been after a 3-4 hour morning run, then dock the boat for lunch for about an hour, and then only when we have idled out and have revved up for a minute or so will it splutter, stall and won't restart. That is what is confusing me! It's like something happened while it was sitting doing nothing at lunch! Seems to happen pretty reliably now! Could it be something is getting clogged, and then on the drive home (on the trailer) it unclogs? Thanks for all your help! |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 9:10pm
|
This is really bad because my '95 is doing the same thing. Starts on first bump of the starter when we first start out, runs great all day even after shutting off to change skiers then… when we stop for lunch and a swim for about an hour BANG no start. Leave the cover open for a half hour or so… starts right up and runs as normal. Yours as with mine something is getting heat soaked as it sits with the engine cover closed causing the no spark or no fuel pressure condition and I thought I had it pinned down to the TFI as I have one sitting in my truck waiting to be installed. So that leaves us with the two tests I mentioned check for spark if yes, jump the STO to run the pumps and go from there. But I don’t think it’s the pumps since they work fine all morning till you park with a hot motor. ???I wonder if the pump is crapping out and getting hot but as long as fuel is traveling through it, it stays cool enough to work but once you shut down they heat up to the point of not working till you open the cover till they cool again??? I’m just thinking out loud through my fingers. LEWY HELP I’M STUMPED.  |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 9:41pm
|
Just an idea after reading, open the Engine cover when you stop for lunch. Let most of the heat escape. Might keep you running. I agree with the fuel pump test, connect a hot wire to the pump and see if you get fuel pressure. Should eliminate the pump question and lead you closer to a solution. After a day on the water I always open the engine cover when we get home and let out all the heat and moisture. I close it hours later after it has cooled down to avoid moisture damage. |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 9:43pm
| Thanks guys - so tell me more about this fuel pump test? Where do I find a hot wire and where is the pump?! I know - simple questions, but I'm still learning my way around this boat of mine!! Appreciate the help. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 10:42pm
|
The STO is hangs on the rear of the motor by the circuit breakers. You need to make a jumper that will fit in the STO (with an inline fuse preferred) and an alligator clip or something similar. Plug into the STO then connect to a good ground source, this will run both pumps full time taking all other sensors out of the loop. So if both pumps run and the motor starts the problem is in the pump circuit somewhere. If it does not start but has fuel pressure then we need to look at the ignition side of the puzzle. http://s256.photobucket.com/user/gun-driver/media/95%20Nautique%20pictures/c56b2bc3-e72f-441e-876a-aacaf1484184_zpsdebf38e4.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
|
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 10:50pm
Yes this is an option but I perfer to get to the root of the problem so the system works as it should. |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-09-2014 at 11:35pm
| Okay I see the cable in the pic. What rated fused are you using? And what's the connector on the cable into the STO look like? |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-10-2014 at 12:59pm
So here is the EEC connector I have - which of the connectors does the cable I'm going to make go into?
|
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-10-2014 at 1:19pm
Picture????? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-10-2014 at 1:26pm
| Your looking at the wrong side look at the female side as in the earlier picture then with the long side down and the small side up the right corner should be the female side of the double green & orange wire. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: August-16-2014 at 11:33am
| Any updates on a fix?? |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-16-2014 at 8:46pm
|
Hey Gun-Driver No progress has been made unfortunately! We have had a week of rain here in Oregon! Couple of questions: 1) What does STO stand for? 2) I'm ready to make the cable but wanted to know what amperage fuse you use? Then I guess the plan of attack is as follows: 1) Get back out on the lake & play hard all morning long 2) Have a nice relaxing lunch (but open the engine cover) 3) Try an afternoon run If the engine fails, I just want to confirm I'm going to do the right tests: 1) Connect cable to STO 2) Key ignition on and test for fuel pressure 3) Do I try to start with the cable connected to the STO? I probably need to check for spark too - what's the easiest way to do that? Should I buy a timing light? Thanks! Steve |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-16-2014 at 9:04pm
Yes! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-17-2014 at 1:50am
In line spark testers can be useful too, because you can leave it in place:
|
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: August-17-2014 at 7:52am
|
Heat soak problems hey Paul and Steve. Been there before myself they can be confusing. Test for spark when the heat soak problem is there if spark is OK. Zone in on the fuel system pumps running, plenty of fuel pressure while cranking without start? The fuel pump relay is activated by the ECM completing the circuit by supplying the ground (pin 52 on ECM connector). You can leave the STO jumpered to ground and the fuel pumps should run all the time. If intermittent you can leave this jumper in place and rule out problems with the ground supplied by ECM when it is in the heat soak condition. There is one other possibility now in that if it has spark and fuel pressure but still will not start. It may not be getting the spark at the correct time or the injectors not firing properly. This could then be a ECM (Computer) heat soak problem.  ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: August-22-2014 at 1:30pm
|
Okay I got the cable all built and ready to go out today! When I had the ignition turned on and cable connected, I could hear a pump running - so that's a good sign right?! :) I'm still not sure how to check for spark - I did buy a timing light, but really don't know how to use that to test for a spark condition. I also have my fuel pressure tester ready to go again today! Will let you know how things go today! Steve |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: August-23-2014 at 12:25am
| You can test spark by getting tester like Brian said or in a pinch crank the engine and hold one plug anywhere to the metal one the engine . Crank and look for spark. |
Posted By: PT Skier
Date Posted: August-24-2014 at 12:07pm
|
4 years ago I had a problem with my engine that matches exactly what you described. After running with the boat for some time (enough to raise the engine temperature to normal levels), if I turned it off I couldn't start it once again. Then I found out that if I waited long enough in order the temperature to fall I was able to start the engine once again. After some discussions we found out that if we were able to cool down the fuel pumps the engine would restart normally (we used a sponge with cold water from the river to test this). At the end, and after replacing both high and low pressure fuel pumps I never experienced that problem again. Not a very technical input  but just to report my experience. Hope it helps.------------- Ski Nautique 196 OB (1995) PCM Pro-Boss GT-40 Multiport EFI 5.8L 310hp 750 hours |
Posted By: parrott
Date Posted: August-27-2014 at 3:25pm
|
I have been fighting the same problem about stalling for a year. It finally stopped completely. I put in a new low pressure pump and it started in the driveway! Can't wait to get to the lake this weekend. I believe the problem has been solved. ------------- 1999 Air Nautique 1992 Nautique 1978 Nautique |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: August-29-2014 at 10:24am
| Gary, hope you found the fix! Let us know how the lake test goes. |
Posted By: parrott
Date Posted: September-01-2014 at 7:10pm
Boat ran great this weekend. No stalling issues for the first time in a year. Appears the low pressure pump was going bad for a long time and finally died. Life seems much better when you can trust your boat!   ------------- 1999 Air Nautique 1992 Nautique 1978 Nautique |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-02-2014 at 9:48am
Awesome 
|
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-02-2014 at 9:57am
| Thanks' Jose (PT Skier) for your post as well. I've added both yours and Gary's to the GT40 thread. |
Posted By: mtguy
Date Posted: September-07-2014 at 2:57am
|
I had similar problems last year, and found leaving the motor cover opened after a round of skiing prevents the problem. especially on really hot days... now I think I will change the low pressure pump (after I figure out where it is:~) after the season is over...early October here in North Idaho. Great discussion. Thanks ~Pete ------------- '95 SN '53 Hutchuck '56 Essaness Craft |
Posted By: parrott
Date Posted: September-07-2014 at 9:48am
|
I would run the blower frequently and leave the motorbox cover up to let it cool. When it did stall, I would pour lake water on the pump and it would decrease the time of the stall. Wish I would have changed the pump sooner. I believed it was vapor lock but it wasn't. ------------- 1999 Air Nautique 1992 Nautique 1978 Nautique |
Posted By: mtguy
Date Posted: September-07-2014 at 12:03pm
|
Mine has never stalled, but it has refused to start after sitting while waiting for next 'set'. I too have used the wet rag technique. A low pressure pump for me! Are they difficult to install? ~Pete ------------- '95 SN '53 Hutchuck '56 Essaness Craft |
Posted By: parrott
Date Posted: September-07-2014 at 2:00pm
|
Actually, mine did not stall. It would run great until I stopped for an extended time. Then it would start and run about 100 yards and die. The pump is easy to install. Three screws on the top and reconnect the fuel lines. I used teflon tape on the fittings. If I can install it, anyone can!  ------------- 1999 Air Nautique 1992 Nautique 1978 Nautique |
Posted By: mtguy
Date Posted: September-07-2014 at 4:08pm
|
Thanks for the confidence builder...I need it! " If I can install it, anyone can!" -hopefully I won't prove you wrong!! ------------- '95 SN '53 Hutchuck '56 Essaness Craft |
Posted By: parrott
Date Posted: September-07-2014 at 4:20pm
|
Let me know how it works out ------------- 1999 Air Nautique 1992 Nautique 1978 Nautique |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: September-11-2014 at 5:06pm
| Thanks guys - so where is this low pressure pump located and just what does it look like? Pictures help! :) |
Posted By: parrott
Date Posted: September-11-2014 at 6:17pm
|
I don't have access to post pics at this time, however, I am sure someone will later. Looking at the front of the engine it is a small bowl that is suspended below the alternator belt pulley...that is the lower right hand side. It is a round cylinger about 6 inches long and attaches from the top with 3 small nuts. There is a electrical cable coming from it and the fuel line that goes up into the FCC. Hope this helps. ------------- 1999 Air Nautique 1992 Nautique 1978 Nautique |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-11-2014 at 6:44pm
From another thread, he was asking "is this the pump?", the answer was that, that was in fact it:
|
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: September-11-2014 at 10:17pm
|
Very cool - thanks for the picture - definitely helps! So now I just need to work out the part number! Shouldn't be too hard I guess! Might make it part of my winter maintenance. Thanks guys! |
Posted By: StevoDevo
Date Posted: September-11-2014 at 10:18pm
| Think I found it - http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RA080018 |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-27-2015 at 12:45pm
|
Just replaced mine after learning how to deal with it by holding the starter a little longer than just getting it going. 500 hours but 19 years....on the 1996'Super Sport. The position for repairing it is to climb in adjacent to the engine. Leaning over the back seat was not fun. Advice....take a few pics before starting so you can easily recall.whatmwent where. ------------- 2008 MasterCraft 197TT 1996 Nautique Super Sport 1988 Waterlogged Supra Mariah |