91 Nautique Excel no reverse
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26910
Printed Date: May-14-2024 at 1:02am
Topic: 91 Nautique Excel no reverse
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Subject: 91 Nautique Excel no reverse
Date Posted: July-10-2012 at 2:40pm
After putting 18 hours on a new to me Excel I lost reverse with no warning. The boat has 462 hours total. I pulled the trans and this is what I found. Has anyone seen this before? Both discs are broken. Could it just be age fatigue? Besides the obvious damage everything else looks good. ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Replies:
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 5:01pm
| Everyone says to send their transmissions to Eric Lavine at Fantastic Finish Marine. He's on this site or you could look up the business directly. He should be able to fix the tranny. |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-17-2012 at 6:27pm
I rebuilt the transmission myself, it was pretty easy. The forward clutches looked great but I relplaced them anyways since new ones came with the rebuild kit. I was just trying to figure out what would cause the clutch plates to break like that. Was hoping for some insight, like if it was operator error?  I hope not.------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 7:42am
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common problem, but from what i can see on the clutch splines, it appears your damper is bad, so replace your damper also....when you say rebuilt......what is your definition ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 9:53am
I'm curious as well. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
eric lavine wrote:Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 7:02pm
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Eric, what is the part you are referring to as the "damper" I don't see that part listed in the service manual. Also, why are broken clutch discs a "common" problem? As for the rebuild, I replaced the clutches, plates and seals and all of the pressure plate springs. I also disassembled the rest of the trans and cleaned and inspected the rest of the parts. Everything else in the transmission looked great, the forward clutch discs barely showed any wear but replaced them since the rebuild kit came with new clutches and plates. There were no signs of over heating and the bearings were all in perfect condition. Thanks ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 7:09pm
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The damper is on the flywheel and not in the trans. It's the spring loaded coupling between the trans and the engine. With a bad damper, there is no dampening and the torsionals from the engine will snap plates and tear up splines. Since you really did not rebuild the trans plus didn't replace the damper, expect the same problems with the trans. All you did was through some parts in it. Sorry. Others have made the same mistake and have ended up sending it into FFM. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 7:45pm
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Well I have been rebuilding automotive automatic transmissions for about 30 years now and the way you do that is by replacing the parts inside them. The rubber seals become hard and brittle due to heat and hydraulic pressure drops in the cylinders causing the clutch plates to slip which causes more heat and so on and so forth until the trans fails. What I didn't understand, and thank you for clarifying is that the culprit might be the damper between the engine and the trans which wouldn't really means it wouldn't matter who 'rebuilt' the transmission it would most likely fail again if the damper were the cause and not replaced. ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 10:10pm
Eric sells damper plates along with his trans rebuilds. I'm surprised you didn't know what the damper was but then again really not since your only experience has been 30 years of automotive trans's. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 11:19pm
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Onestop- I hope all works out well for you. Trbenj has talked about the best deal on dampers being from Ebasic power. I would look at their website for a replacement. - Pete,  just curious, what would your definition of a rebuild be? did I miss something?  from all that has been said about Eric here, It sounds like he is a great tech and a well respected site contributor  , but he can't really be the only one that can rebuild a transmission??? (since there is not an "I'm not trying to be a butt" emoticon, I guess I'll just type it)...here is why I ask... FFM is a significant distance from me... shipping on my trans is going to be ~100 each way. Certainly I would get references from the MC and SN dealers before going to someone local, but with the shipping being 25% additional cost to the rebuild, I'm struggling with the why do I need to send my WA trans to Brunstucky country, especially since my boating budget is very tight... I'd rather spend the dollars on gas than UPS... now if FFM was an hour or two up the road, this wouldn't be a hard decision for me.  I would guess that OSJ from CA might be in the same position? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-18-2012 at 11:38pm
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To me a rebuild is just not throwing a bunch of new parts in but understanding why and correcting that what caused the problem. Off subject long story short but in the early 80's I had a VW that was leaking real bad. Took it to Aamco,2 days later the transaxle acted up. Took it back to them they now said the ring and pinion need to be replaced why??? Took it to VW for a new transaxle and Aamco to court. The judge asked the Aamco tech how he learned to fix them,he said watched video's. Asked the VW tech, he spent a week in VW's schools taking them apart and putting them back together. Guess who won? Learned my lesson- So do your homework and get it in writing. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 7:33am
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clean and paint..... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 7:39am
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check your bushings also..... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 8:42am
Just a Gary mentioned, it's not just putting new parts inside. FFM though all the years of rebuilding has learned there are critical dimensions that need to be checked. These are items that are not in the manual. You can put as many new parts inside as you want but how long will it last before it gets torn up since a part has worn out of spec. The CC dealer up north "rebuilds" their trans's. I know one person who had them do the job and the "rebuild" lasted 2 months!! Here at the plant we know a seal will not last if the mating surface is worn. I have a 4" shaft out now being rebuilt because a new seal didn't stop the leak from a gearbox. It's getting built up with chrome and reground. I personally would send my trans to FFM and I've rebuilt several engines over my 40 years of playing around with boats. I searched but couldn't find that one thread that was a great example of a trans "rebuild" This member on the west coast had taken the trans to a supposedly good marina and had the trans done. He got it back and within hours it went out on him again. The marina "rebuilt" it again and again the same thing happened. He sent it off to FFM and it was interesting what they found inside. The marina was just throwing rebuild kit parts in it!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 2:48pm
Thanks for the explanation! I was concerned that my response was going to come off as clowning on you, when I was really hoping for an answer I too have built a few engines, and have always "replaced parts", but not without checking tolerances, doing necessary machine work and good visual parts inspection. I guess I just kinda assumed that when you see that something is worn, you either measure for tolerance, or you replace the broken/worn stuff... I agree that finding out why something failed is part of the rebuild process, so you can correct the failure. No question that FFM is very experienced with these transmissions, I wasn't aware that there was room for "interpretation" in the trans rebuild manual. How come they don't put all the tolerance information into the manuals? Seems like most "techs" would need that to do a satisfactory evaluation/rework of a broken gear box  - I remember the trans thread you are referring too... I just assumed that the shop was a poor example of paying a person to do work for you. I tend to think that I am going to be more meticulous than any shop, as their goal is to make money, and mine is to not have to do the repair again  Although I do understand that experience is a good teacher
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Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 2:50pm
aka "Krylon Rebuild"
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Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 3:18pm
On cars there is a flexplate with a torque converter bolted to it that the input shaft of the transmission fits into. No damper in the equation. ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 3:34pm
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So the boat only has 460 hours on it. Would a damper really fail with so few hours? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 3:51pm
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Someone explained it to me many years ago at work--- Go look in the obituary section of the newspaper,they are of all ages and many of them were ok the day before. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 4:56pm
Yes especially since the OEM is on the cheap end. When replacing, go with the Sachs brand. Ebasic Power has the best deal. They are around $90.00. The damper is matched to the spline count on your trans. However, since you have a 91, I think your are stuck with the PCM damper. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-19-2012 at 5:11pm
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I have personally not had any problems with the PCM dampers beyond the price so I am not willing to except that as a blame point for failure. The hours on the engine wouldn't be a good indicator of health either though. The marine environment can be dangerous from a corrosion standpoint and that is very common issue. Boats that have low hours tend to sit for long periods of time between use and that doesnt seem to help the longevity of much.. perhaps if it had been taken apart and lubed each time before storage.. but thats not realistic either. A decent way to kill a damper is to run a very low idle rpm or an out of tune engine. In such cases the damper has to work fairly hard and will in fact often times hit the limits of its ability to flex making a banging or rattling noise. Run it like that a lot and things will break. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-20-2012 at 3:10pm
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Great info. I will check it out. I talked to Vince at FFM yesterday and he pretty much said the same thing, the damage could be related to the damper plate but it could have to do with several other factors as well and since I have had the boat such a short time it is hard to tell. ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-29-2012 at 4:16pm
I have the boat back together and the transmission is working great. I did call FFM and talked to them about the cause of the broken reverse clutch plates and they said it could be the damper or it could have been age, or misuse by the PO. So I got it all back together and put it in the water and put it in gear and there is noise at low rpm's but it is not coming from the bellhousing like I expected, but from the V-drive. So does this mean the V-drive is going to expire on me? When I had everything out I did drain the fluid from the V-drive and it looked like there was some mosture in there so now the fluid is fresh. It is a Walter V-drive, should I be preparing to rebuild it next? It sounds like at least a bearing is not too happy.  ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-29-2012 at 5:23pm
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Jeff, Yes, the Walters can also be a problem. From a mechanical engineering side, they are poorly designed in my opinion. Walters went cheap and used a U joint instead of bevel cut gearing to change the angle of the output shaft. They also, in order to keep the case size small went with the bare minimum on sizing the internal components. The bearings for example are the best they can get their hands on. The use of a U joint sets up horrible harmonics due to the cordial RPM change every 90 degree revolution of the U joint. These harmonics caused by the U joint really pounds the bearings out in a relatively short time. I wonder why CC doesn't use Walters anymore!!! Your best bet is to rebuild the V drive as well.For bearings, go to your local bearing distributor and not Walters. Walters will absolutely rape you for the "special" bearings. You will not be able to sit down for weeks!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-29-2012 at 8:35pm
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-deleted duplicate- ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-29-2012 at 8:36pm
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Thanks for the info. I found this in the Walter Manual: -- EXCESSIVE NOISE IN V-DRIVE -- A clatter or rattle in the V-Drive at low RPM is due to drive-line related vibrations, such as the overriding of the propeller during the compression stroke of the engine. This noise may be reduced by tuning up the engine and increasing the idle speed for smoother operation. My boat is idling at about 550rpms in gear, is that too low? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-29-2012 at 8:40pm
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Jeff, That is just cr*p from Walters. Please remove your double post. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: July-29-2012 at 11:46pm
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that seems to be a velvet tranny so you need a velvet drive damper plate.... ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: July-30-2012 at 7:36am
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550 is to low and will cause noises ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 1StopJeff
Date Posted: July-30-2012 at 2:39pm
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Thanks Eric. What should the target idle RPMs be for in gear and out of gear? ------------- 1991 Nautique Excel |