302 teardown
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20029
Printed Date: June-13-2024 at 8:38pm
Topic: 302 teardown
Posted By: storm34
Subject: 302 teardown
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 2:07pm
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Time for winter projects here in Iowa. First up, tear down the Ski Tique's 302 and find the tick. My plan is to take the block in to a machine shop here and have them diagnose/repair....and if we get into the lower parts of the motor, possibly stroke.
I've never physically torn down a motor myself so I thought I'd ask you guys for advice/make sure I'm doing everything correctly. They basically want the block and told me to tear down everything else. Can I take the motor off the bell housing and leave the trans? What is the process for doing so? I know this info is probably on the site somewhere, but I didn't find any threads so I thought I would start my own. 
So far I've pulled: Manifolds Carb raw waterpump alternator Top of the thermo housing Had to stop there as I ran out of tape. I've been labeling all the wires as I go and marking their locations on the respective posts. Still need to pull: wiring plugs/plug wires coil circ pump cooling lines |
Replies:
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 2:15pm
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Pull the tranny and then the bellhousing. No, the machine shop doesn't need those.
Label everything...I used sandwich bags and a sharpie. That's less important if you're going with all new 'inerds', but still a good idea. Even those parts you're SURE you'll remember the nature of will bite you in the end. 
Also note different bolts/pieces on the same part. A notebook and camera aren't bad ideas either. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 2:40pm
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Thanks Greg...You're saying to pull it all at once? Then pull the trans? ------------- |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 3:16pm
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What I said is for after it's out of the boat. And yes, I pull the engine and trans together; mounts and all. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 5:52pm
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Are you reusing the cam Chris? If so you need to keep the lifters in order as to which lifter goes to which cam lobe.Personally if your going thru all the work,get a better cam.
Keep the rods together with their caps also and make sure the main caps are back in the same place too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 6:09pm
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Thanks Greg, after looking at it more it looks much easier to pull the whole thing.
Gary, I'm going to get all the accessories off and take it to a machine shop here in Des Moines. Once they can take a look into the motor and find the tick then we will make a plan for repair. If it isn't something major we will replace and put back together. If it's more serious, then we will see what our best option is. Getting into the inside of the motor is beyond my expertise...i'm just slowly working my way through my first motor pull and leave the build to the professionals. Just got back in from finishing up the rest of the tear down: (atleast my part) pulled fuel pump Circ Pump wiring labeled and pulled shaft coupler removed Thats all for today until I get my neighbor to bring over his picker and pull everything out. ------------- |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 6:44pm
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Chris - I think you were asking if you should pull the motor with tranny still attached. I think that would be easiest, you will have more working room on the bench/stand tahn in the boat. You can leave the bell housing attached to the tranny if you want to when you separate them from the engine.
Like Greg said, label everything, put all of it in some semblance of order (like cardboard boxes), takes lots of photos, & get a good repair manual - (I have an old Chilton's & it's been worth it's weight in zddp). Have fun, learn something, & post some photos. PS- If you don't have anyone nearby to help you, maybe you could inquire about an auto mechanics class at the community college. The instuctor I am sure would be very helpful to you. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-21-2010 at 9:51pm
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Chris get yourself a copy of http://search.barnesandnoble.com/How-to-Rebuild-Small-Block-Ford-Engines/Tom-Monroe/e/9780912656892 - this book,alot of good info ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 2:53am
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Great info guys! Progress is going to stop for a couple days but I am hoping to get it pulled on wednesday or thursday and to the shop. I'll get some pictures up tomorrow night and make sure we are ready for the pull!
Edit- Gary, I saw your post about this book last week and almost ordered myself a copy. Looks like I will be getting one now!  ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 9:52am
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what will the machine shop be doing? if you are going with a new set of pistons the normal clearance is .001 to .0025, because its marine have them opened to the larger clearance...its a must! depending on the machine shop if you get a flat price the cheapest of the parts tend to go into the engine, keep an eye on these guys and if you can and have the abilities just lem them do the machining and you source the parts, alot of pistons are made in China, India and are far inferior to a piston such as a Wiseco piston....spend the big qaulity money up front so you dont have to the second time ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 12:10pm
Eric, I totally agree with sourcing the parts yourself (or at least picking the parts and buying them through the shop). Im not certain I agree with your blanket statement on the piston to cylinder wall clearance comment though. If Joe stumbles in here hopefully he will comment- but I think he would say to check with the piston manufacturer for a recommended clearance range with your specific application in mind. ------------- |
eric lavine wrote:Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 12:45pm
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it was a guideline and meant to go to the high side of what the piston manufacturer recommends ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 1:27pm
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These last few posts are the reasons I bring stuff up here!
The guy I'm working (Jon) with seems to be a great guy. He rebuilt a buddies 318 for a southwind and did a hell of a job. Jeff (my buddy) would get a few calls every week to discuss progress and what he wanted to do next. He was always working with Jeff to make sure they had the correct parts sourced and was always open to discussing what he was doing. It's nice to find someone who has a true passion for what they do and not treat you like you're a number walking through their door. Eric- Jon is going to find the source of the tick first and then help me decide what our best option is. If the crank is trashed- we will look into stroking. If it's something less severe we will fix it and put it back together. Either way, he will make sure I know what's going on before they make any decisions. Photo's from last night after pulling a few more items:     ------------- |
Posted By: PAPA
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 3:09pm
| Not a big deal here since you are pulling the motor and tearing it down, but if you have it sitting around at all keeping the intake opening covered with tape,etc. keeps out foreign material. |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 5:43pm
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Thanks Jon, I actually used a buffer pad I had laying around the shop to cover everything up. Fits right between the mounting bolts for the carb!
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Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 5:56pm
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how bad was the tick and what do you think it was? I went round and round with a ticking 302 this summer. the tick started after a high rpm rev, i started in the vlave train with the second set of lifters, all new rings and bearings, couldnt find the problem. long story short, it ended up being an undersize piston that slipped thru the cracks at Ford, I re-ringed and stabbed the pistons never measuring the pistons but measured the bores and they were right on, the engine was in beautiful shape except the piston was undersize by about .038 ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 5:58pm
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the only reason i caught it was because i had the engine flipped and pan off and was rotating and just happen to see the piston kick at bdc ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 8:28pm
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Eric...Here's a video of the tique tick. I remember seeing the post about your troubles finding a tick and will be sure to have them check everything out when I drop it off. I hope it is something as simple as that but wouldn't mind making a few minor improvements!
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Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: November-22-2010 at 11:24pm
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Chris I have been watching this thread closely since I also have a 302. That's one helluva tick! I am sure you will have it in top shape for next season and am looking forward to the results. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-23-2010 at 10:01am
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did you pull each plug wire while it was running? that at many times will isolate the problem. ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-23-2010 at 3:01pm
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Eric, I did try to pull each wire....even ran it in the dark to make sure it wasn't my wires. Jon is pretty sure it's something lower in the motor. When I took it to my old man's marine guy they said the same and quoted me 4,500 to rebuild and couldn't guarantee it would be done before the end of the summer....I decided to pull it myself and take it to Jon. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: November-23-2010 at 3:03pm
Thanks Keegan! We're hoping it will be running pretty quick in the spring! I'll be sure not to let the guys paint my manifolds black either! ------------- |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: November-23-2010 at 3:24pm
 Yep you gotta watch those guys. Marty got me a can of paint that looks right. Hot Rod Green I think is the name. I need to pull them off and repaint them the right color. Of course my block and trans were painted old ford blue which is not the right color either. The waukesha blue is almost a navy.------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-24-2010 at 9:45am
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it sorta maybe sounded like a collapsed lifter or loose stud/nut, easily checked by pulling the valve covers and putting pressure on the rocker to see if the noise softens.....the only reason I say that is because it sounds half of engine RPM, and the cam spins half engine speed.......but once again its like looking into a crystal ball. better safe than sorry though ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: December-25-2010 at 7:36pm
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Merry Christmas guys! Got some time to work on the Ski Tique today with my Big Brother home from New York. We decided it was time to pull the motor and get the trans separated from the block.
I'll hopefully be able to get it loaded up and drag it into the Shop to find the diagnosis. I've been asking a few people here plenty of questions along the way so I thought I would share some pictures and a quick video of the pull. Gotta cut us some slack, it was the first time we'd pulled a motor so forgive me for the shift after the initial lift. We were cutting it pretty close to the Dist. but cleared everything and it sitting on a cradle ready to go! Ben is in the boat and I'm driving the Bobcat. Some pictures, in reverse order. 
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Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: December-27-2010 at 1:44am
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You are making some good progress.
I personally couldn't stand the sight of the nasty green exhaust manifolds. Painting the manifolds black will give you more HP though;) ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: December-27-2010 at 1:23pm
Don't tell Keegan and Marty that! Motor gets loaded up and taken to the shop tomorrow! ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-03-2011 at 1:53pm
Just got back from dropping off the motor at Midstate Machine is Des Moines. Should be hearing something by the end of the week or early next week. I'm hoping it's something minor but wouldn't mind going a rebuilt top end or possibly a stroker. We'll see what they say and go from there!
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Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-03-2011 at 3:40pm
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dont let them tell you, let them show you ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-03-2011 at 3:46pm
The fresh coat of green looks pretty good I think. If it ever warms up enough to finish painting them and get them back on I will post pics. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-03-2011 at 4:12pm
Will do Eric. I was told they will take pictures or call and I can come into the shop if I am in town. They did a heck of a job on my buddies 318, giving him updates through the whole process. Keegan, I made sure to leave mine at home...but please post a pic and let me know how they turn out. I may have to freshen mine up when I put it all back together. What color did you go with for the 'original' blue. Mine had been repainted a darker blue at some point by the PO. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-03-2011 at 4:51pm
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While the motor is at the shop, is there anything I'll need to buy as far as transmission pieces? Any new seals? If I recall correctly, some have said it was best to replace the dampner plate while I've got it all torn apart?
I was having a little bit of what seemed like slippage at no wake speeds but I think it could be from my idle being too low. Any advice? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 11:34am
Chris, I cant see the pics here at work but going from memory, I believe your engine is the original color. The early PCM/Waukeshas with the green manifolds had very dark blue blocks. Much darker than the Ford Blue Interceptors. I would replace the damper while youre in there- its easy and cheap ($70). I wouldnt bother cracking open the transmission unless you were having issues with it- there isnt much you can do, short of a full rebuild. ------------- |
Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 12:37pm
Where can I get a $70 damper plate? Will buy as many as I can. DIM has them for $175.00 BW/Ford 302/351 Florida Inboards price $168.70, In Stock! ------------- Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise. 1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 1:47pm
Jody, Chris's boat has a Velvet so the standard off the shelf Sachs plate can be used and is less that $100. Mer Equipment as well as Eric is a good retail source. With a PCM trans, you're screwed since you are stuck with their plate!! BTW, the Sachs plate is better built too!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 1:54pm
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You beat me to it, Pete. The link you provided to Merequipment in the past no longer works, but the same 80106 drive plate is still listed in their http://www.merequipment.com/pdfs/Drive-Plate-Brochure-5-22.pdf - drive plate brochure .
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=eBasicPower&Category_Code=DAMPERS - Ebasicpower also lists a similar ALTDA-106 drive plate as well, though it appears to be an ALTO Products part instead of the Sachs Ive heard mentioned. ------------- |
Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 4:30pm
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Hey! Thanks for the info. I wonder why both Indmar and PCM as well as DIM sells their drive plates for so much? even to us dealers. Wonder what the service load rating is on these plates are? maybe that is why PCM/Indmar and DIM are getting so much for them. Or could be the gold content! ------------- Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise. 1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 4:43pm
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Ebasicpower is just down the road from work. Check them out when you need a control cable. I've used them several times. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 6:25pm
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Great info guys. This is a no brainer for the rebuild process.
One other issue I was having was with starting.... At certain times when attempting to start, the boat would act like the transmission was engaged although the throttle was in the neutral position. It would not start unless I moved the throttle just a touch with the button pushed in. I'm not talking major movements, just a simple touch of the throttle. At first I thought the problem would have been in the Morse Control, but the button had to be pushed in while I moved the throttle to engage the ignition. It seems as if the boat wasn't sitting in neutral and when I touched the throttle it would dis-engage and allow the boat to start. Once running, everything acted normal and performed as it should. Any ideas? I'm thinking it has to be a setting on the trans? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 6:57pm
Chris, its just a transmission cable adjustment- try adjusting it at the trans side first, then move to the Morse side if you cant get it squared away. The "neutral" position on the morse is simply not centered into the actual neutral position on the trans. Its pretty common- a quick jiggle of the throttle (button in so it actually moves the trans cable) will usually clear it up. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-04-2011 at 7:09pm
Thats exactly what I had to do. I remembered reading a couple posts about it a while back. I think Alan gave a nice description of how to properly troubleshoot problems with the throttle cable. I'm planning on taking the Morse Control off anyway to clean it up while I wait for the motor. I'll also be replacing both cables as I found a pretty nasty wear on the throttle cable. EDIT- Any chance this had something to do with the trans feeling like it wasn't fully engaged while at idle? ------------- |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: January-06-2011 at 2:30am
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Chris, your motor looks to be the standard PCM blue from that era. From the pics, it appears to be the same exact color as my PCM that had the green manifolds originally. It was definitely darker than the traditional ford blue. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-06-2011 at 3:18am
Look at the picture above, by the oil dipstick. Looks like the dark blue was peeling off and showing a lighter blue underneath. I'll take a look at the trans tomorrow and see if I can see any of the lighter blue there. I figured someone had painted it at some point when I saw this.....Kinda got excited when I saw it as I like the lighter blue a little more. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2011 at 3:33am
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It almost looks like the original Ford light blue Chris.Do you think Ford painted their parts, then Waukesha repainted their color? Or do you think Ford would send out engine parts not painted and then the marinizer would paint? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: January-06-2011 at 3:39am
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Chris, that looks right.
I have a couple spots on my 78's motor like that too. My boat was original and extremely low hours when I bought it so I know mine is original. From what I can tell, ford painted their blocks, and then PCM painted over that paint. It doesn't make sense any other way. PCM wouldn't have 2 different paint colors for the block, but simply repainted fords blue with their dark blue. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-06-2011 at 4:54am
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hmm very interesting. I will have to pull up some old pics and see what mine were like. I kind of seem to remember a lighter layer underneath in chips on the paint but never really gave it any thought. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: January-11-2011 at 12:55pm
Yes depending on what direction you were off.. worn and sloppy cables could also have both effects you are noticing. However they could also cause you to wear out the clutch plates by idling around half engaged all the time if you have let it go too long. Replace the cable if that is in your plans then adjust appropriately, only worry about the trans if that doesn't take care of it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-11-2011 at 4:16pm
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Thanks for the input Joe. I am planning on replacing both cables while its all apart as I found the actual cable was exposed in one place. I'll get everything adjusted when I put it all back together.
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Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-24-2011 at 4:12pm
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Well guys, just got word from John at the machine shop. I sent a few of you emails but thought I'd post here as well. John thinks it probably got hot at some point and let water on the pistons as the heads were leaking.
2 broken heads scored pistons The Cam is said to look great with little wear which was surprising to me as I thought it would have been a worn cam lobe. I am thinking of going to Gt-40p heads but am wondering if I will see much more performance without putting a new cam and intake as well? He's got a set of heads he will sell me for $110 and will keep my costs down quite a bit. Thoughts? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-24-2011 at 4:41pm
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Chris, I just sent you a detailed message but here's a summary.
If its not too late, Id consider going 351w or 331/347 stroker long block from Fordstrokers.com instead of rebuilding what youve got. More hp/$. If youre committed to using your old block at this point, then Id still upgrade to a 331 or 347 stroker while youre rebuilding the bottom end. The only reason not to is cost- but there is a really big hp return on your investment here, and its a now or never deal. My guess is it would cost an extra $500-700 for a new crank and rods plus the extra machining on your block vs. refurbing your old parts. You'll likely need new pistons either way. Regardless of whether you go stroker or not, definitely upgrade the top end (heads/intake/cam). Youre talking $400 for heads, $250 for the cam, $120ish for a used intake. Small potatoes considering the overall cost. Think about it this way: 351w with upgraded top end = 320-330hp 331-347 stroker with upgraded top end = 300-330hp 302 with upgraded top end = 260-280hp 302 with head upgrade only = 240-250hp stock 302 = 220hp ------------- |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-24-2011 at 5:04pm
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I was reading this from the beginning and I missed a bunch of it. The waukesha blue is definitely darker. More like a navy. I used old ford blue and it is much lighter and bluer. I am glad I went back to green on the manis.
Before 
After 
And here is the manifold. Not the best lighting but this finish seems very durable compared to the slack matt black that the mechanic painted it.  ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-25-2011 at 2:38pm
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Well I've decided I'm going to ditch the whole internal combustion and go with the new electric motor Nautique released today
Just kidding! After reading http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5789 - Alan's Thread like Tim suggested, I think I have a plan together. I'm leaning towards stroking and going with a 347. It's already out of the boat and it's not that much more to make the switch. I'll also be getting a set of Gt-40p's from www.cylinderhead.com - cylinderheads.com , new intake and a cam from Cam Research. These modifications along with a new prop and maybe a carb should make me more than happy with it's performance! I should be able to start ordering parts this week and the build should go pretty quickly. In the mean time, I'll be changing the cutlass bearing, cleaning the bilge and getting the trans ready for some new paint. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-25-2011 at 6:09pm
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A few questions I have regarding Parts after re-reading Alan's thread.
1. Melling Oil Pump- Still the way to go? What about high pressure vs. High volume. This seemed to be matter of opinion from one to another? I'm probably not going to reach much further than 4,500-5,000 rpm and this seemed to be the changing point? Probably using Moly Rings like Alan unless informed otherwise. 2. Piston to Bore clearance- If I read correctly, Forged pistons are probably the best choice for the $, but need more clearance in a marine application due to cold block temp and need to be turned 180 degrees. 3. Main Seal #'s for Alan's are 17748 and 17795- Would these be the same for my 302? If I read correctly, the front seal is the same as the 351? 4. Tri Metal Cleavite bearings - Still the way to go? 5. Billy mentioned he is using an Eagle Stroker crank- Is there a large difference with this over what John (machine shop) might recommend? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-25-2011 at 6:21pm
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Chris, youre venturing into unfamiliar territory for me, so I wont comment on many of the specifics... but I do have a few inputs.
1. I would plan to build your engine to be capable of spinning up to 5500-6000 (or more). You will most likely want to cam it and prop it to run in the 5000rpm range, maybe just a little more. I dont *think* you want a high pressure pump- though HV might be ok. 2. I would lean towards all forged components in the bottom end. Stronger = better. Joe or someone else may be able to better comment on what is money well spent vs. overkill. I do believe you'll want to select your specific piston and follow the manufacturer's instructions on setting the proper cylinder wall clearance for a marine application. 4. I think front seals may be the same on the 302/351, but the rears are different. Do not take my word for that though. 5. No idea, Alan or Joe would be good people to ask. 6. Ive heard good and bad things about both Eagle and Scat cranks. I'd want to do some more reading, but Id probably be comfortable with either of those- but would not want a cheaper off brand. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-25-2011 at 9:51pm
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Chris start http://www.competitionproducts.com/ - reading I had a Scat forged VW crank years ago,it was a work of art.I broke it,no fault of theirs tho. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 3:46am
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fwiw, when I put gt40P's on my 351 that had std 240hp heads on it, it made a huge difference from those heads with only intake manifold too. I did not change the cam, and unless I get bored, the hp it has is more than enough as is.
That said, I would rather go with a 331 or similar size stroker on a 302 unless you can get pistons that don't have the oil rings extend into the rod pins like a lot of 347 strokers do. I'm not a fan of oil control rings that intersect the rod pins. To be honest, going to a 351 w might be cheaper if you can find a block. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 10:02am
|
its usually the dead stop that breaks things, unlike a car the most vunerable time when things break is when they let the trans brake loose and try to transfer all the power to the wheels which sit on solid ground, the advantage a boat has is the transition of a smooth band of power thru the range and on a boat things will break at the higher RPMs, more or less something lets loose.
With a tight properly clearanced engine there is no need for a high volume oil pump, I would think there is no such thing as overkill on any engine that you want to perform flawlessly for years, so you probably want to put the best parts in there. obviously the pocket book dictates what goes into the engine, and if the funds are available you always go with the stronger forged parts. really if you wanted you could put hook type piston rings in there and the ring set would set you back 300 bucks....is it needed? probably not, but a piece of mind comes with it. The only thing I can really add is dont go with any foriegn made budget parts, go with brand name parts like melling, clevite, even OEM parts, they have a proven track record. ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 10:08am
|
and inspect new parts before you install unlike a seasoned guy as myself, 8 hour day swapping the front cover on a 3.2 Mercedes engine which includes lifting the engine, pulling 2 oil pans, setting the timing chains, pulling the impossible to get to valve covers, and finding out that 14 holes on the front cover were not tapped (threads) I guess im not so seasoned, what a way to waste a day. ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 11:29am
|
Chris, you may want to do a little bit of reading on 302 strokers before deciding between the 331 and 347. Like Horkn alluded to, the extra stroke of the 347 sends the pistons pretty far down in the cylinders- which may have an impact on longetivity. Billy's 331 is plenty stout, as is Reid's 347... just do your homework!
Glad to see youre going to punch it out though. The extra cubes along with a fresh top end will make that Tique something to be reckoned with! ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 12:08pm
|
Great info again Guys. My next question was going to be the longevity of a stroker. I really like the concept of more ponies and if it's not too much more $$ I might as well take the leap, but I don't want to be worried about maintaining the motor as well.
Like Tim said, I need to do my homework as this is a new process for me. Thanks for being patient as I go through my first rebuild, I am open to any and all suggestions! I figured 347 was the way to go since I'm taking the leap anyway. If a 331 will provide a more stable unit then I would lean that direction. Opinions? ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 2:14pm
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its like boats, they always trade them in for a bigger one ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 4:13pm
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Well, I had a great talk with John from the Machine Shop here in Des Moines. He's much more knowledgable with marine application that I expected.
I asked his opinion about Stroking the motor and 331 vs 347. He said after seeing the condition of the crank, rods and my Cam he doesn't see a reason to justify stroking the motor unless I want to get a lot more power out of the motor. Obviously, it's my choice and it would give me more power but at the same time I don't think at this point I NEED the extra power. Bored 30 over, heads, intake and a cam will be plenty of upgrade for me and won't break the bank. A $400-600 difference between stroking and stock makes me lean towards staying with the stock bottom end and using new forged pistons. If I can get somewhere between the 270 and 280 mark I'll be a happy guy. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 5:14pm
Duh! 
I wouldnt necessarily advocate stroking an engine just for more power (heck Ive never actually done it myself), but the fact that youre already tearing into the bottom end and cleaning it up is reason enough. Save for the RR wick lines, theres nothing special about your stock crank and rods, so I wouldnt lose any sleep over not using "parts that are still good". 275hp in a Tique will be a fun ride for sure- but if afterwards you want "just a little more" then youre sort of stuck. Save for spending $1500 on aftermarket aluminum heads or a little bigger cam (or redoing the bottom end for $1500+), there isnt a whole lot you can easily do. It will never get cheaper or easier to go stroker than it is right now while its already apart. We're talking cheap horsepower here... show me another way to spend $400-600 and get 40+hp! Of course its your boat and either way you go, Im sure you'll be happy with the end result... but I dont have to tell you what Id do. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 7:42pm
|
Tim you are 100% correct, the idea of another 40hp is very appealing. I just have a few concerns with going to a 347. One is durability of the block. I don't want to get into something I cannot maintain or worry I am going to break. Most of this stuff is way over my head anyway, I just know enough to be a little dangerous.
A more mild stroke at 331 is an option, but like John said, if your going to pay the $ to stroke the motor you might as well go up to a 347. Doing just the top end seems like it would be more manageable but if I am wrong please correct me. Like you said earlier, I need to do some more homework and I don't want to get into something I don't fully understand. The other is a question I guess I have to ask myself, what is the purpose of the boat and the rebuild? -I am going to be using it as a travel boat of sorts, going to reunions and taking it on weekend trips around Iowa. It doesn't have to be a screamer but it would be fun to get up into the 55 MPH range. The 4-600 bucks could be used somewhere else like upholstery or in the bank for other projects some day. I'm not sure which way I'll go yet, I may need more persuading. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 8:01pm
|
Chris, I did a little reading today. Plenty of respectable engine builders seem to think that a properly built 347 will be just as reliable as a 331. Obviously piston speeds and side loading are slightly higher with the extra stroke though... I think thats why Billy chose to go 331. I would probably do the same, personally. Both configurations have been around for a long time and have a proven history. It will all come down to the quality of the rebuilder who assembles it. 302's can blow up too!
You can save $400 by skipping the cam and intake now if money is a major concern. All it would cost you to do those later is a handful of gaskets (plus the cost of the parts themselves). Once your block is done, you cant build a stroker without starting from scratch! It sounds like your intended use makes the Tique more of a toy- which I can relate to. If youre shooting for 55mph, then a stroker should get you there. Tune it properly and you may be running with some of the fastest boats here! ------------- |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: January-26-2011 at 10:27pm
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I still would only go with a 331 versus a 347 due to the piston speed and all the other points we mentioned. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 10:19am
|
more torque, bigger prop, lower engine speed....remember, guys on here spent the 3g for homey chromey exhausts to pick up 1.5 horsies....400.00 bucks for 40 hp??????....that gives you a basis to build upon later as budget allows....once you build a stock 302.....thats it, you gotta live with it.
347 btw ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 2:20pm
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Yep yep yep, a million ways to skin the cat.
If I was looking at a bottom end rebuild and therefore needed to pop for new bearings, crank service, connecting rod service, machinging, new pistons and rings.. then yes I would say to myself.. for a few more bucks I could also get a new 331 cast crank and a decent set of rods and end up not only with a few more cubes but also a new crank and a set of rods instead of reconditioned crank and rods. A pretty good payback on the investment. Nothing wrong with a well built 347.. but if I was building a 347 I start to think about a forged crank (+300 over cast), balancing (+200), and a stud girdle (+100 if it fits without new oil pickup and drain pan mods). Well now I am starting to talk about real money, wait if I am getting it balanced shouldnt I think about the condition of the flywheel and harmonic dampner before I put more money into them.. and next thing you know you are broke.. or maybe you do it cheap and you are broken? I say the cheapest 331 you can get built, gt40p heads (be careful here the spring and valve selection could do you in), a used performer rpm intake, and don't let those guys at cam research give you no tractor puller cam.. the boat dont weigh nothin and has a v8.. you will get out fo the water just fine. Or the cheapest 331 you can get built and the top end you have now.. cause as the man said you can always do the top end stuff later without even pulling the engine out of the boat. It might make sense in this case because you need new heads to just go right to the gt40ps even if you didnt want the cam and intake bill at this point. That way you can plan the right pistons to match the heads with the right compression ratio from the begining. While we are here..great things are possible even with stock bottom ends with bigger badder heads, intakes, exhausts, and rpms. But that is where the drivability issues come into play. They can be taken out of play with fancier fuel and ignition systems, but when you start talking like that you have left the realm of bang for the buck in my skiboat and gotten into the realm of engine hobbyist. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 2:57pm
Very true Joe! Well, since the bearings, crank and rods are all in great shape I think I am going to stay with the stock bottom end and simply go 30 over with new pistons, gt-40p heads, intake and a cam. I love the idea of going to a stroker and adding another 40 hp, but I don't think it is necessary at this point. 260-280 hp will be plenty in my little Ski Tique and will be a great tow boat provided I get the right cam. I'm sure Tim will be telling me "I told ya so!" someday, but I've still got a little blue boat in the shop with no foam and I hear it can be a fast hull....might just have to make a sleeper skier some day! ------------- |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 3:36pm
|
This is a cool discussion thanks guys!
Chris forgive me if I missed it, but what ended up being the cause of the problem. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 4:11pm
|
Both heads were broken, probably got hot at some point and were suspected to be leaking water into one of the cylinders. The piston was scoring the cylinder so we're going to got 30 over which should clean everything up pretty well.
Then new pistons, heads, intake and cam at this point. ------------- |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 4:21pm
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What is your ballpark estimate for the rebuild if you don't mind me asking? ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 5:30pm
Chris, Im afraid I dont understand exactly what your machine shop is charging you for if theyre not going to refurb the bottom end... install new pistons and assemble the top end? If so, youre getting hosed! I'd be making sure the bottom end was fresh if I were in there that far, unless youre very budget sensitive. If there is a $400 difference for all new parts (stroker at that!) then thats a no-brainer. As far as speed potential goes, that Ski Tique hull should be faster than the gen 1 Mustang/Skier, FYI! ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 5:39pm
|
Tim, what should I expect as far as a price range for what they are doing. I thought it was pretty fair considering they have time in taking the motor down, cleaning everything up, will be boring the block 30 over, magnifluxed and putting everything back together. The estimated labor cost was going to be about 700 bucks to do the entire thing.
Only reason I am price sensitive to the 400 is that I literally just put in an offer on a house not more than 10 min ago! Not sure what will come out of that but it may effect my thought process on this project. Good news is, it's the one with the big shop I told you about! ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 5:44pm
Keegan, the quote I had from the shop to put it back together using stock parts was 1,000 bucks. With gt-40's cam and intake I'll be expecting to be around 1500-1700. At this point, I have a lot of options and I just need to weigh whats the best one for me at this point. I haven't gotten too caught up into speed and more HP (yet) so I am leaning towards a more mild upgrade on this boat. ------------- |
Posted By: kytom2
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 6:15pm
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What new parts are part of this (new rod and main brgs)? What machine work is a part of this (Crank polished or turned and polished)? It's apart is it going to get hot tanked? When its bored is it going to get power honed for the correct fits? I guess what I'm saying is I'd be asking for an itemized list of of parts and services I'm getting for my thousand bucks. Whatever you decide to do, get the most you can for your money, and get it done right. If not it will cost you more in the long run. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 6:34pm
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Chris, congrats on the house (and shop!).
Tom makes a good point- you want to fully understand exactly what youre getting. What services will be included, what parts he's using. Then you can figure out where your money is best spent. If I were in your shoes, I would prioritize my wants/needs as follows: 1. Fix things that are broken. Heads, pistons. 2. Freshen the bottom end while youre in there. New bearings and seals at a minimum. 3. High performance top end (cam/intake). Things that are being replaced or refurbed, you need to look at the extra cost associated with replacing with better parts. Look at the heads, crank, rods. I said it before and Ill say it again, if that $400 is critical, put it into the bottom end now because you cant do it later. You'll still get a good power boost with 331ci even if youre running the stock cam and intake for a year or 2. Do the heads now since your old ones are junk. If and when you finally decide to upgrade the other pieces, you wont have to undo any of the other work you did on the bottom end. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 6:42pm
|
Tom, as stated above, the rods and bearings are in great shape, this motor only has 400 hours. They've already had everything in the hot tank and cleaned up. Yes, the cylinders will be honed as well as bored. Not sure about the crank, I'll have to check with John on that one.
I'm going to go ahead and call on the Gt-40p's today so we can hopefully see them next week? Intake and cam will follow shortly after. One thing we haven't touched on yet is ignition. I know some like to stay with points but I am open to suggestions. ------------- |
Posted By: kytom2
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 6:49pm
|
If the block been hot tanked then its completly apart. The crank, rod bearings and main bearings have been removed.
New bearings will be required during reassembly. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 6:54pm
Thanks Tim, we'll see what happens. Could be a great situation if it ends up happening, if not I'm in no hurry to take on any debt!
If you all think that heads and a 331 are my best option with the stock cam and intake then I am open to that option although I would really like to have this thing done and not have to tear into it again. (I have a Skier that is dying for my attention!) If my math is correct, I would be around 270hp with the heads and a stroker kit, basically the same as a stock bottom end and an upgraded top end? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 7:24pm
|
While it would be far from optimized without the cam, I would guess you'd be pretty comparable in hp with the bigger cubes and P heads vs. a H/C/I upgrade. While your hp peak would be a bit lower (4000-4500 rpm instead of 5000), you'd have a bit more torque with the extra cubes. If you wanted to, you could run a steeper prop and cut RPM's at all speeds.
To add a cam and intake later would be minimally invasive- no need to pull the motor. Youre talking an easy 1-2 day project, tops. Once you catch the speed bug (and you will) then youve got an easy way to add power down the road. If somehow you lose interest (ha!), you still have a great performing boat for the same amount of money- with a fresh bottom end that should last a long time. The extra torque will be very nice and being able to underturn (mph vs. rpm) at all speeds is pretty darn luxurious- and probably more efficient. If money is tight, slap that old distributor back on for now- that can be changed later too. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 7:34pm
|
That sounds very appealing to me as well Tim. Since it will be used as a workhorse when it's at our home lake towing kids and visitors around....and efficiency is always a plus. I'd really love to just dive in and do the whole thing right now, but the responsible side of me is saying to take it one step at a time.
If I can get this thing dialed in like it was before I think I will be in great shape. It fired up faster than any boat i'd been in and was smooth as silk, just a little noisy! With these upgrades would I still be looking at an ACME 1210? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-27-2011 at 7:40pm
Actually no, I dont think so. You'll want something steeper with the extra hp. Even my sisters 302 with a hotter top end needed more prop. With extra cubes, you'll definitely need to go bigger. The new 12.5x13 Acme would be interesting to try- the only person I know who has run one is Reid (on his 347 Mustang). That would knock the revs down the most, Im guessing. A 12x13 OJ is probably best if you stay at 302ci. If you go to 331ci, both the 12x14 and 12x15 OJ's should be considered along with the 12.5x13 Acme. Do you have a 12x14 Federal now? That would have been the original prop... if so, you may want to baseline your performance before buying something new. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-28-2011 at 2:17pm
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Tim, I'm going to try and get the prop pulled and check everything out next week. Was busy finishing up a trailer for the Chris Craft this week so I can drag it up to Wisconsin today.
I talked to Reid last night about his Mustang and 347. His opinion was to go with a stroker, heads and a cam to get the most bang for my buck. In his opinion, stroking with out a cam wouldn't utilize the $ spent in the stroker kit as much. He also mentioned there are other options for good cam's at a cheaper rate, I'm going to do some looking outside of Cam Research just to be sure. If anyone has any good leads I'd appreciate the heads up or a better description of what I should look for. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-28-2011 at 2:32pm
Chris, that is absolutely 100% correct. With 331ci and P heads and the stock cam and intake, you'd be way underoptimized. Probably ~270hp @ 4000-4200 RPM. Add a cam and intake and youre looking at 300-320hp@5000 RPM. The only reason to not get a cam and intake now is cost. If youre looking to save $400, skip the cam and intake now since they can be done later relatively easily. Dont trim the stroker from the budget, as that cant be re-done later. If you can stretch the budget a little now to do both, you'll get the best results, obviously. Reid may have a line on other good RH cam vendors. He may even have a few Speedpro cams on the shelf that would be a big improvement over stock. That being said, for a custom grind, Cam Research is your best option, IMHO. Dont let them talk you into being too conservative, but their grinds seem to be very good. Theyre only marginally more expensive ($50) than an off the shelf grind from Comp- which has been shown to leave a good amount of hp on the table. ------------- |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: January-31-2011 at 7:29pm
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Chris, when's your birthday? Oops, saw where we just missed it in Dec, but what the heck, if you stick with the stroker route and I'll give you one of those Speedpro-type cams, in exchange for all the beer I can drink at our next outing we both attend. And I saw a brand new intake on ebay for $109.00, IN IOWA, of all places. 331 vs. 347, I'll stay out of that one for now. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-31-2011 at 8:24pm
|
Reid, You are the man! Let me know where you spotted the intake, I'll do some searching as well. I'll be sure to stock up before GL11, just let me know your favorite. Looks like we are going to be able to attend this year as long as nothing pops up! Or better yet, I'll keep you posted on my tentative trip to Raleigh to see my buddy who just moved out there!
In unfortunate news, It's not looking like we got the house with the shop. This is a blessing in disguise as my grandfather's health is quickly declining and they're giving him hours/days. I was out visiting him this morning and he was the witty/cleaver man I've known for so long. We're all hoping for the best and planning for the worst. As of now, It looks as if I'll be taking care of the farm and horses when the time comes. Grandma will be living with mom and dad until we decide what will happen to the farm. Everything happens for a reason, just another example how the big guy upstairs works things out. So hopefully I'll get to put a little more time, energy and money into the motor now that I am pretty confident my wallet isn't going to be tied up over the next few months. 
I did get to stop by the machine shop over lunch and look at the broken heads and the newly bored block. Everything looks great...well, except the old heads. I talked with John and he's going to wait until we see the heads to order the stroker kit and then we'll go from there! I would have snapped some pictures but my camera was dead. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: January-31-2011 at 8:31pm
This must be the http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBF-FORD-302-347-Dual-Plane-Aluminum-Intake-Manifold-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem335c207d49QQitemZ220588965193QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_5476wt_1015 - intake?
Thoughts? It's in Ames, Iowa. I've got a buddy up there who can snag it for me an bring it back over the weekend. ------------- |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-31-2011 at 10:11pm
|
Chris sorry to hear about you grandfather. It is good that you have such a close family and you can be there for each other.
Looks like the motor is going to be a good one! ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 10:05am
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if you look at it this way, "347 is only 4 cu in's away from a 351" ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:09pm
|
Your right Eric! I should have had them look at making me a 351 but we already had the block done and it's sitting waiting to be built.
Called Cylinderheads.com today to order some gt-40's, said they didn't have any in stock. I looked around a bit this morning but haven't really had a chance to dig into search. Anyone have any leads? Once I get the heads we'll be ordering a stroker kit and then starting the build. Hopefully we can find something soon. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:14pm
|
I have used tristatecylinderheads.com before and was happy (however since then they have become thier number one seller and gone up $150 in price) others have used clearwater http://cylinder-heads.com/products.cfm.. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:16pm
|
seems like a lot of work and $ when you could freshen a 351? i know i am not a ford guy so enlighten me . oh and the gen one hull? faster seems to come at a cost . the way it handles causes a steep rise in underwear costs. if i could do it again i would leave that one stock and build your style hull into a 55 plus ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:23pm
|
A fresh 302 bored .030 over with the aforementioned gt40ps, mild cam, and intake will walk all over a 351w with stockish heads. The stroked 302 will also still fit under the doghouse.
As for what hull's are fast, and which ones handle better.. no real winner between the earlier (mid to late 60's) and later ( early 70's) mustangs/skier/skylark as far as I can tell. Neither handles worth a darn compared to any of the ski nautiques, and both could use considerable rudder improvements if you are actually going to see the mid 50s IMHO. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:30pm
|
so in other words you could need new supplies of underwear in either hull.
Joe does ford only have 2 block sizes like chev? ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:36pm
|
If you are talking about external size for chevy blocks like small block vs big block.. then no ford is not the same. The 302w block is a different external size than the 351w block. The difference is not hugh and many parts can be shared with some work but don't assume anything will swap directly. The 351 cleveland block is not commonly found marinized but it is actually in the big block family. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:39pm
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thanks yes i meant outside dimensions ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 2:51pm
|
The square fiberglass motorbox that CC started using in 1970 (though '81, I believe) should fit a 351w under it just fine. It was the earlier (through '69) swoopy glass boxes that arent wide enough for the larger block. I agree that starting with a 351w would be preferred IF you can source all the other parts (block, distributor, etc) for cheap. Since Chris had already started putting money into cleaning up his 302, then sticking with the smaller block makes sense- it will weigh a few lbs less too.
I have yet to see a stock 1st gen Mustang hit 50, though Ive seen a few 2nd gen Mustang/Skier/Tiques do it. The hp difference (~10hp) isnt big enough to blame... I think that, on average, the 2nd gen hull is faster. There are a few slow ones out there (like my Skier and Reid's '73 Stang) that plow or underperform somewhat, but Ive actually yet to see a Tique that doesnt bounce at high speeds without requiring weight in the back. Reid has measured the hook on both and says the 2nd gen has less... so that may be why. I think the Tique with the single tracking fin tracks and turns 100% better than the un-finned boats (1st and 2nd gens alike), though Id never change the way the earlier boats handled... thats part of their charm. The 1970+ rudder may not be the best out there, but its certainly better than the "lillipad" rudder that came on all 68 and earlier Stangs. The recessed strut also seems to be a better design on the 2nd gens. Chris, I just sent you an email. Clearwater (cylinder-head.com) should have the heads youre looking for. I believe you forgot an important detail. Youre not looking for "GT40" heads, you want the "GT40p" heads. Theyre not the same. The P heads flow better, are cheaper and are more readily available. Tristate has them too (at a $200 premium) though they come with better valvesprings and supposedly a better valvejob. If going with a cam with more than .500 lift (which a 331 might not mind) then the better valvesprings are probably advised anyways. I dont think Reid's Speedpro is that aggressive though- so youre ok with either set when paired to that cam. ------------- |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 3:29pm
|
Tim, you were right...called the wrong place. For future reference http://cylinder-heads.com/details.cfm?itemid=1890 - this is the place to find the gt-40p heads. 205 a piece and 50 bucks shipping.
I talked with John back in parts who said it would be 2 days to work the heads and 4 to ship so I should see them sometime wednesday. I'm going to have them sent right to the machine shop since I'm scheduled to be out of town next week. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-01-2011 at 9:58pm
Either they gave you a deal or you got them awhile ago Joe,I just checked their site,they are the same price as I paid 2 years ago. Anyway they are a good deal,I had that much tied up in a rebuilt set 20yrs ago ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |