’83 "2001" New Problems
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1663
Printed Date: May-14-2024 at 2:50am
Topic: ’83 "2001" New Problems
Posted By: billgatesceo
Subject: ’83 "2001" New Problems
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 2:08am
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We went out to board today. Everything was kosher right at the start. But, midway through my set, my bud said that it was pulling real sluggish. When he hit it..it took a good 30sec before it would get up to speed. When I changed to be the driver I experienced the same thing. It felt like it was running on only 6-7 cylinders. Strange thing, is that in neutral, it would rev up good. Except, at the lower end, it seem to stumble, and at idle, it was running real ruff, unless you gave it alot of gas.
Also, there was a bad whining coming from the engine. I traced it to the impeller making alot of noise. At least it was still cooling, but real noisy. List of things to do: 1) Change out impeller, maybe belts too. 2) Change out sparkplugs too, maybe wires, but will start with plugs first. 3) Order holley rebuild kit for the carburator and tear the thing apart a rebuild it. Never torn a vehical/marine carb apart, so it should be a good lesson. Any other ideas or insights. The new starter is still chugging along great. Cheers, Brandon |
Replies:
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 2:12am
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Oh yeah, b/c of the condition of the engine was running, I was going back to the dock to drop off the truck/trailer driver, and was gonna do the ol' head in, put it in reverse and swing the back end to parallel park the boat...and the thing died. Ran right into the dock and knocked the front light off. Took a little out of the gelcoat too, but not too bad.
And on my way out to load on the trailer, I had to give it a little too much gas to keep the engine running, and I clipped the left rear rubrail pretty good on the scaffolding of the dock. They really need to put some covering over that stuff. Oh well....another project to fix those things... but I enjoy it. Just need to get the motor running top notch before I work on the asthetics. |
Posted By: 882001
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 2:38am
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get rid of the points as fast as you can!!!! try www.vintageperformance.com thats how my boat used to run when i got it. i got the high performance coil and the electronic ignition for around 100.00. ------------- kemah texas http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=163&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990 - 1988 skinautique "2001" |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 3:07am
| mallory lym554cv dist. and an epoxy coil. Rebuild the carb, full tune up and the impeller too. Good luck. |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 5:47am
| The distributor is probably a weighted system. Meaning if you open it, you will see weights on springs. The springs have gone bad and the boat can't keep the timing correct. I had the same problem when I had my 84.. get rid of all that crap! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 12:58pm
| You can't get rid of the springs and weights and have it run correctly, its call mechanical advance and if you remove them it run even worse. The dist is ylu-554-cv for a reverse rotation engine. And a spring doesn't go bad. Dude you are so out in left field. |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 2:37pm
| Sorry for the so called "bad advice" I had a spring break in the mechanical advance go out which then after a certain RPM, the timing was off and the engine would miss. At lower RPM's you could not tell. so try again.. yes, springs go bad. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 5:04pm
| So the consensus it bad timing at the low end. should I be able to tell with a timing gun? |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 9:46pm
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I would have to say timing. But I'm no expert right 79nautique? I am only speaking from expierence that I had on mine. If pop open the distributor, under all the guts are the weights. There are two weights. They bothy have springs on them. If one spring is worn, or my case, it was broken... I want to say that the mechanical advance was off a datsaun or something like that... (local auto store found the p/n # in an old book)
But again.. if there is anyway to get out of mechanical advance.. I would... |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-14-2005 at 11:00pm
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Well, the lower RPMs seem to be the problem. When it gets up to the upper portion of the power band it seems to be fine.
When in neutral you can actually get it to rev, however, under load(ie in gear) it takes a good while for it to get up. Can anyone list the high points to hit for a full tuneup? My list: 1) plugs 2) wires (had a couple of sets go bad on me in my mustang and it ran just like the boat..that one is easy to figure out though, just go one by one taking of the wire and see which one makes no difference) 3) Full carbureator rebuild kit 4) possibly upgrade to electronic ignition 5) ? Thanks for the help. In due time this beast will be running like it should and I can focus on getting the gelcoat back in shape. Cheers 3) |
Posted By: 882001
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 3:01am
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reverse 4 and 1 and you will have your list ------------- kemah texas http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=163&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990 - 1988 skinautique "2001" |
Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 11:11am
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IMHO fix the current problem first before any upgrades so you don't waste a lot of time and money.
If the engine runs well at high rpm's at least you have some place to start from. I would assume this indicates the advance is working. The cheapest and most common problems are coil, points and ballast resistor. ------------- 64 Skier 66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 5:34pm
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I have been doing a little troubleshooting and have come across something strange.
If I test the voltage going into the ballast resistor, it is only 10.4VDC. Is this normal. Also it seems to be hooked up to the same point as the electronic choke, it sees the same voltage and has continuity. The voltage from the battery is 12+VDC. I will check the wiring diagrams to see where it is getting stepped down if it is supposed to, but I thought that the ballast resistor was doing all the reduction needed. Consequently, the voltage going into the coil is only about 5-6VDC, not the 8-9 that it's supposed to be. Another strange thing is that every 30-45seconds I hear a sound coming from the dash, kinda mechanical sounding from one of the guages. Also, my guages seem to do strange things, like the tach shoots up when I turn the key "on" (doesn't do it always, and seems to stop acting that way after a little while). The fuel guage seems to fluctuate too while the key is on...more than just the level changing from the gas sloshing around in the tank. Any ideas? Thanks for all the help. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 5:47pm
| Is there any good wiring diagram for all the engine wiring and connections. I have a PCM manual but it doesn't seem to be as detailed as the engine wiring really is. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 5:50pm
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The choke pulls serious current and can pull down the whole dash unless things are just right. The ignition wire is a marginally adequate guage wire for the total current.
Probe for the voltage drop, and likely the guilty component will be uncharacteristically warm, too. Ignition switch is suspect,as well as the QD in the harness. Check all the grounds for good contact. I personally added a small relay to power the choke and alternator, so the ignition and dash are not overloaded, else more significant rewiring was in order. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 6:01pm
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So I SHOULD be getting 12VDC at the inset of the ballast resistor?
by QD, do you mean "quick disconnect"? I understand using a relay to power the choke, but the alternator? Why is it drawing power? Where is the power coming from that is powering up the choke and the ballast resistor? I hate to start unwrapping the harness to trace it all out. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 6:04pm
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AFter looking at the wiring diagram on one of the manuals, it looks like everything is being powered through the ignition switch. I will start there as find out what is suspect.
Would this low voltage be causing the rough idle issues, if the coil wasn't getting a high enough voltage to produce adequate spark at low rpms? |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 6:17pm
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certainly could. Can't seriously continuue diagosis till you remedy this low voltage. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 6:58pm
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After looking at the ballast resistor, I determined that if I unhooked the resistor, the voltage would jump up to 12+VDC, but with it connected it would drop back down. At first I thought that the resistor could be bad. But after thinking and talking to my pops (ol' motor head and electrical engineer), he thought that the resistor was doing what it is supposed to be doing and that the drop could be just from the load of the coil being energized.
He suggested like you that I check for voltage drops from the ignition switch. Also he said, and I confirmed with the service manual, that there is supposed to be an overide wire coming from the solenoid to the output of the resistor to temporarly provide 12V to the coil under starting situations to get a hotter spark to get it started. On my motor that aux wire is not present. I am gonna check the ignition switch right now. I did notice a couple of spade connectors loose on the fuses that could be it. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 7:58pm
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I went through the entire electrical path from the ignition switch to the coil:
1) Ignition switch 12.8V+ 2) Ignition 12.4V 3) Harness QD at dash 12.2V 4) Hardess QD at engine 11.5V 5) Ballast resistor input 11.5V 6) Ballast resistor output 6V 7) Coil 6V Not sure why the readings at the resistor were low earlier, maybe from disconnecting and reconnecting the wires, it got a little better connection. I guess the real question is: What kind of voltage drop should I be getting across the resistor? I measured the resistance with an Ohm meter and it was reading 1.0-1.1 Ohms. I guess if this all looks good as is I will start to look at different issues: points, rotor, etc. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 8:22pm
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I pulled the plugs to check the condition. They all look pretty good color wise except the #3 cylinder (viewed from the rear of the engine).
I also took the cap off the disty to check out the points and rotor. They look to be pretty new. You can see some corrosion on the faces of the points. Is the way they work is that the tip/end of the rotor brushes the corroded face of the points? Correct? I will probably hook up the fakealake to it today and see what she runs like. It will probably idle fine and make it all that much more difficult to diagnose. 
|
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 9:53pm
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I used the wrong term when discribing the "lobes" on the inside of the cap.
I went to my dads and picked up a timing light and dwell meter to check the timing and the dwell setting of the points. I think I am gonna go ahead and get a carb rebuild kit to educate myself in carbs as well as make it new again, since it looks like it has never been rebuilt since day 1. I'm assuming it is a 4150 since it has no metering block on the secondaries, but a flange plate instead. At least that is what the service manual says the distinguishing difference is. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 10:23pm
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Anyone know what the Holley part number is for the full rebuild kit. I think it is 37-1539, but not sure since I can't seem to find the exact model number on the carb. I see some numbers on the air horn, but none of them are the correct numbers.
Thanks for all the help guys. I promise the bugging of yall will soon stop. |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-15-2005 at 11:12pm
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Bill,
From the pics and everything you have descibed, here are the things I would do before I tried to run it again: - Replace the coil (I think your coil is shorted and overloading your ignition circuit) - Replace the points and condenser (They are shot) - Replace the Distributor Cap and rotor (They are shot too) - Replace the spark plugs - Replace the spark plug wires I think you will get it running fine and I think ALL of the above need replacing. After you get it running well, replace the brand new points and condenser with an electronic conversion. Save the new points and condenser in a storage compartment on the boat as an emergency back-up. If, after you make all of the above replacements, you still have a problem, attack the carb. From what I see, all the things I listed need doing even if the carb is the main cause at this point. I would bet money that I am right on, on all of the above. -jim ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: jameski
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 12:00am
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Yep. It was definitely time for a tune up. Your number 1 and number 3 plugs look pretty fouled. Your number 2 and number 6 look a little too white - almost looks like you are running too lean on some cylinders and too rich on others. So, the carb rebuild sounds like a good idea.
Be SURE to do a compression test soon. That COULD be oil fouling your plugs. It's very possible that the plugs fouled when you had a weak spark caused by low voltage to your coil. If the voltage came back up after you disturbed the QD, and other connections, then you definitely need to clean and lubricate those connecitons. Your distributor cap "contacts" have a big chunk of build-up on them that restricts electrical flow (needs to be replaced). The dust inside the cap is probably a good conductor and can cause the electricity to "jump around" inside the cap and ground out on the distributor body instead of going through the wires. Of course you always replace your rotor when you replace your cap. When you get your carb kit, check to see which power valve it came with. Many of the kits come with a 2.5 valve. You should use a 6.5 for a standard 351 in a 2001. If you call Holley's tech line (find it on their web site) they should be able to give you the correct kit number. You will want to be looking at the carb when you call them. The numbers on the air horn are not the "model" or the "series" they are the "carburetor part number" or "list number". ------------- current boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1977 - 94 Sport Nautique previous boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=601 - 78 Martinique |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 12:22am
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Thanks for all the tips. I will order all the parts tomorrow. Yeah, I researched it some and your correct the number is the List number. However, the one on my carb it not listed under Holley's cross reference chart. I will call them tomorrow. I wonder if the "renew" kit ski-dim lists is the correct one, although it is cheaper than most I have found on the web.
Can you get a coil from a local auto parts store? The one that ski-dim lists is $60. What about the plugs? Can you get those at napa too? Ask for a ford 351? So should I use dielectric grease for the QD's? I did notice some slight corrosion forming around the base of the pins. I will get the tune-up kit from ski dim that has the cap, rotor, points, condensor, etc. That ought to be fun as I've never replaced any of those parts before. I'm good at reading directions though. With that kit I am halfway there to buying the electronic ignition conversion from vintageperformance. I just don't want to compound the problems, but then again I don't want to have to ask my wife for more money to spend on more parts. Thanks for the help guys. She'll be up and running in no time. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 1:16am
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Good tips..
bust don't worry about the white insulators, they're supposed to be white. At optimal combustion temperatured they self-clean. If you see gray, thats bad. To read the plugs you need a scope or cut the threads off and measure the thichness of black ring, but get it running better first. The carb you describe is a 4160, and there are a hundred flavors, so yes, match the LIST number of the air horn for best match. Even your dist lobes look corroded, and a few thousanths of corrosion could be signaling a few cyllinders to fire late or early. The oddly mispalced corrosion on the cap terminals suggest this also. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 1:47am
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I believe the carb is a 4150 b/c of no metering block on the secondaries. I think I am going to stick with the points after all. They work, and if kept up correctly should offer the same amount of reliability and performance.
I am still deciding what to order from skidim and what to pick up locally. Shopping List: Skidim 1) Tune-up kit (cap, rotor, points, condensor) 2) Impeller 3) Carb rebuild kit (if they have the correct one) Napa 1) Plugs 2) Plug wires 3) Coil (epoxy filled for marine app) Anything I am missing? |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 12:24am
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I did a compression check today:
1) 150 2) 140 3) 149 4) 135 5) 150 6) 145 7) 148 8) 149 Those look to be pretty good except for the lower compression on #4, but not by much. I got the new coil, plugs, and plug wires on today. Just waiting on the disty renew kit, and impeller to come in and then I will see if anything improves before I attack the carb. Hopefully there is a good diagram on the cylinder numbers versus where they plug in on top of the distributor. I see that the cap indexes on top of the distributor, but there are no numbers to correspond to cylinders. I guess that at TDC the rotor points backward and I can work from there according to the firing order. Cheers |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 2:02am
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Could any of you verify if I should have a "jumper" wire from the starter solenoid directly to the coil. On the schematics in the service manual it show this wire. However, on mine, there is no wire to do this.
The purpose of the wire is to give the coil a full 12V ONLY when the engine is started. |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 2:02am
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IMHO the compression is liveable. For a nice picture of your distributor showing the firing order cut and paste this URL into your browser address bar:
http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewzoom.cgi?image=2055 As long as you are going to set the timing after you are done you can pretty much set the dist in the block anywhere you want as long as the dist rotor is pointing toward the terminal to which you are connecting the number 1 cylinder when the balancer is at TDC AND the number 1 cylinder is on it's compression stroke. (The dist rotor makes one complete revolution for every two revolutions of the balancer.) Once number 1 is wired just follow the drawing all the way around. I can't help you on the jumper wire. ***************** Warning! The pic I referenced is for an automobile engine with "standard" direction rotation. Your marine engine may very well be and is probably a "reverse rotation" engine meaning the spark plug wires must be connected in the opposite rotation of the pic that is referenced above.!!!! Know what you are doing! In other words, if your 351 is a reverse rotation engine your firing order will be 8-4-5-6-2-7-3-1!!!! Someone please confirm this! ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 2:10am
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Oh man! Important info I need to add. Your engine is probably a "reverse rotation engine" meaning you should run the wires in the opposite direction of those shown in the PIC I referenced. This is crucial and I am considering pulling down my post. The pic I referenced is for an automobile engine!!!!!!! If you wire your engine according to the pic I posted your engine could be damaged!!!!!!! I am going to edit my above post. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 2:40am
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According to the service manual it states, "Distributors on all models, regardless of engine rotation, turn counter-clockwise, viewed from the top on Ford engines and CW on Chebby's". So I think your pic is valid no matter what rotation. The firing order on the page is incorrect. Mine is 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3.
So....thanks for the pic. I think it is okay unless someone else chimes in with evidence to dispute our claim. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 2:42am
| I was hoping not to have to take the distributor out, or loosen it, thus disturbing timing in that manner. Let me know if my assumptions are incorrect. I do have a timing light and dwell meter to check the settings. |
Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 7:53am
| Ford engine all run dist counter clockwise no matter what the engine rotation is.Only the firing order is different. |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 11:35am
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You should definately get the electronic conversion kit. Your distributor plate and points are full of rust. The conversion will pay for itself in a couple of years just by not having to mess with points again.
That voltage drop to 6 volts at the distributor is too much. Gottaski is right about the poor wiring in the Nautiques. your guage problems probably come from the wiring inadequacies and/or corroded/loose contacts. Got to Holley.com. It does sound like you have a 4160, and Holley does not list the specs. The specs were left to correctcraft to determine. Look around on the site, they have a Holley repair manual there specifically for the Marine carb series. If your list is 81265, the specs are not listed, but I can give the info I used from C/C. ------------- |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 11:56am
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Good point on the pic. You are correct. It's the firing order that is backwards!
You probably will not have to yank the dist. It's just easier to work on on a bench and it comes out pretty easily. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 3:46pm
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Skyhawk...For now I have ordered a renew kit for the distributor that includes new cap, rotor, points, and distributor. I do agree that the plate and such looks pretty corroded. I will probably get the electronic conversion towards the end of the season. Just need to get it up and running good for now to get the wifey off my back for getting rid of the '77 (which had no problems at all) and buying the '83 (have replaced starter, and now full tuneup coming). Still I am well under a grand for the upgrade to the "2001" with all the needed parts. Plus, it's bigger, throws a way phatter wake, and has better resale potential. It is still hard to get her to see it that way though.
Peace |
Posted By: Bob's2001
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 7:35pm
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I have an 83 also and I just put in a marine renew kit for my 4160 Holley. I got it from Summit Racing for less than SKIDIM or Jeg's and a LOT cheaper than the local places. The list # on my carb is 9392. ------------- Bob Ed 83 2001 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-17-2005 at 9:04pm
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I ended up ordering from skidim b/c I was getting a bunch of other stuff. I wish I would have known sooner. How much at summit?
How was the install for the renew kit? Did it make much of a difference? Thanx |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 12:59am
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I put on the new plug wires and routed them to the old distributor cap just to see if they were all the right length for the location. I have one on the #8 cylinder is a little short to route it with the others.
My question: Are these wires (quality Belden) able to handle the heat if I have to route it around the back of the manifold and along the valve cover/intake manifold? I can probably make a few brackets to make sure that it doesn't make direct contact with the heads. I got these wires from Napa b/c skidim had theirs on backorder and needed them ASAP. I guess I can get them to make me one longer, but hopefully I can get these to work and get me up and running. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 2:41am
Run the wires around the front of the engine. This will save on the length witch will reduce resistance. I used the vertical wire loom from century performance. I posted a topic on the issue. This secured the wires to the first bolt on the valve cover closest to the distributer the remove the other mounts from the clips and just use them as seperators. Worked killer and really clean. Go for the electronic ignition. Really. I have the same issue with my 351. Low voltage. The voltage drop your getting is normal unless the engine is running. The balist resistors are measured under full power. If you do the MBI distributer, be aware that the voltage will be low and then spike high when the the module triggers. My system was all around 12vdc with my module unpluged. When I pluged it everything droped. Positive side to 3.75 and negitive side to .94. been on the phone to Mallory for hours. Sent off my modules and all is fine! Remember that the coil stores voltage, that's it's job. It gets triggered by the negitive side to release power to the cap. good luck with it all. I have the mallory ylm 554cv with the 609 module and a epoxy coil. 7mm wires and plat plugs gaped at 35. Once you have the ignition solved and it runs bad, you know it's the carb!
|
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 2:55am
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I have the wires running around the front. Isn't that they way they are supposed to be? Or do you mean you run them up between the manifolds and valve covers to the front?
I will have to regap the plugs, b/c the ones I got, I think, are plats that are gapped at .040. I have been reading up on distributors on how to setup the dwell and adjust the points, so hopefully all will go well when I try to replace the points and condensor. |
Posted By: Bob's2001
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 3:26am
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The renew kit was not too hard to install, just time consuming. It included power valve, gaskets, needles & seats,O-rings,etc. Most of the time was spent on cleaning, dipped in carb cleaner(which is some evil stuff, I read the cautions on the label!)The price was about $3 less at Summit than SkiDIM and $20 less than local. Finally got the carb reinstalled and running today. That old Ford still sounds sweet. I haven't had it on the water yet but it sure does start easier. ------------- Bob Ed 83 2001 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 3:45am
| Don't run the wires between the valve cover and the manifold. Just use the vertical loom kit on the first bolt on the cover closest to the dist. Then route them down the regular way. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 12:52pm
| The plugs that I got are gapped .040". Should I regap them or do yall think they will work. They are Bosch platnums if it makes any difference. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-19-2005 at 11:43pm
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Alright guys, I need your help ASAP. I got the point changed. New rotor, and cap. I set the dwell with a dwell meter to right at 26 degrees(the spec is 24-29).
When I go to start it up, it starts to catch, but then it backfires and dies. Any ideas? Could it be that I need to gap the plugs down to .035" from .040", or do I have different problems. I am dead sure that I got all the plugs and wires hooked up correctly in the right order. The number one plug is straight aft on the cap, but twisted slightly clockwise from that point. It seems correct that it should be twisted that way to get 6deg BTDC. I did not adjust or loosen the distributor from the block. Please Help!!! |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-20-2005 at 12:08am
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My 289 backfires violently and even starts a fire above the carb when my timing is a little retarded. It does this right after it sounds like it is about to start. I discovered this the first time I had my distributor out. It sounds good and then BAMM! In my case turning the dist. to advance the timing a little, solved the problem. I was able to get it started so I could throw a timing light on it. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-20-2005 at 2:16am
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Woohoo!!!!!!! I got it running. I have to retract my statement about getting all the wires in the correct order. I must have had a brain fart and had two wires wrong. I ended up taking all the wire off again. I then used the thumb over the cylinder head spark plug hole trick to make sure I was at TDC on #1. Then I proceeded to rewire the plug wires one-by-one and triple checking it. When all connected back together..she fired up on the first crank.
Sounds pretty good. Just got to replace the impeller tomorrow, and then, for the water test. If all goes well, I will probably hold of on doing the carb if it seems to be running well. Oh yeah, I need to find another timing light to verify the advance. I did get it adjusted pretty well with the dwell meter. Overall, I am stoked to be able to do the points, etc. I became a master at pulling the cap off, and adjusting the points in the process. I'm not sure how anyone would adjust them perfectly without a dwell meter. The feeler guage, and recommended point gap was only a starting point. Thanks for all the help guys, and I'm sure I'll let yall know if it still runs rough after all is said and done. Cheers |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-20-2005 at 7:12am
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Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-21-2005 at 3:27am
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I got the impeller replaced, and started it up. I checked the timing with the light, and it was right at 6 deg TDC. I let her run for about an hour. Seemed to idle good, and run good at 1800rpm for a while. It did seem like if I ran it up to 3K it seemed to miss slightly.
What adjustments do yall think I could make to make it run smoother top end? Carb mix? Thanks |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-21-2005 at 5:35am
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Make sure all of your wires are pressed in tight on the cap and on the plugs. They can fool you and cause a miss.
Also, I do not know the specs on your engine but 6 deg. sounds a little low. I have been running my 289 at 18 Deg. initial advance but I am going to adjust it back to 14 Deg tomorrow. I think the specs on the 289 call for 10 Deg initial timing. Get some other opinions on this for your engine before you adjust it though. I would run a tank of gas through it (if it is not a real bad miss) just to see if it clears up. If it doesn't clear up and advancing the timing does not clear it up and all of the plugs wires are tight I would get rid of the points. Now is the time for the conversion. I'm sure others that have made the conversion will chime in and agree. My experience is that I was living with a "slight" miss at the high end (3000 and up). I could adjust the points and it would clear up for a short while and then I had to adjust again. It was never ending. I went with a Petronix conversion because of the low price (about $75.00 I think but I don't remember where I bought it - somewhere online) and my boating pleasure increased dramtically. The miss has been gone forever and the engine starts noticably easier. I bet you and the wife are relieved. Have fun and always remember the question my girlfriend asks everytime we go boating: "Did you put the plug in?" ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-21-2005 at 11:27am
Is that what kids are calling it these days? 
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Jim_In_Houston wrote:Posted By: Guests
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Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 12:35am
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We took her out today, and for the most part she ran great. Started up everytime. Idled perfect. There is definately something still wrong with the top end of the rpm range.
It would only top out at about 35MPH, and 3200rpm. It I put it all the way down(throttle), you could hear it miss and bog slightly. Good think that wakeboarding is only about 2K rpm, so it worked great for us. Just had to remember not to punch it full throttle to pull up the boarder. So my ideas of the problem: 1) mechanical advance not working correctly 2) still have old plug wires (skidim was backordered, but ordered some anyway, should be here on Tuesday). I was trying the ol' pull a plug and see if it runs rougher trick to make sure all the cylinders were firing. On number #7 and #8, it didn't seem to make as much of a difference, plus, when I pulled the wire off, it was continually shocking the hell outta my hand. I could have a couple of bad wires. I guess I can check the advance with a timing light rev'd up to high rpm. Anyone know what the timing is supposed to be at higher rpm's. I'm pretty sure from the service manual that idle timing should be 6deg BTDC. Thanks....Almost there |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 2:10am
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http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/timing.htm
Check it out. This is an awesome article. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: jameski
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 11:05am
Great article Jim. Now all I need to do is figure out what cam duration I have (to determine optimum static timing) and what heads (comustion chamber) I have (to determine optimum maximum timing). The engine mods on my boat were done by a previous owner and I don't know what parts they used.  ------------- current boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1977 - 94 Sport Nautique previous boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=601 - 78 Martinique |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 2:13pm
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So it sounds like a timing issue? From a dead start, if I full throttle it, it seems to bog, and I have to accelerate at half throttle.
Thanx |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 2:21pm
| Anyone know the correct timing specifications for a "stock" engine (idle, high rpms), so that I have a basis to work with? |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 5:48pm
| I set my timing at 10 BTDC at idle and reved up to 3000 rpms and it advanced to 30 BTDC. |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 9:42pm
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I checked my timing today with a light. Idle was right at 10-11 BTDC, and at 3K it as 30-31 BTDC. I think the timing is good.
My best bet as to the culprit is the lousy plug wires. the new ones should be here Tuesday, so I'll let yall know. When I was checking to see if all the cylinders were firing, I noticed that #7 and #8 made the smallest difference in running as well as shocking the hell out of my hands through the insulation. Peace |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-22-2005 at 11:08pm
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You are probably right. Good call. The timing sounds right on to me. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: May-23-2005 at 1:45am
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A little trick to setting timing and dwell without any backfires. Backfires can cost $$$$, ruin the carb, and isnt good for the engine, its like dropping a M80 firecraker in the carb and lighting it. I remove the fuel line from the carb, cap it off, then run the engine out of gas. I then change the points and condenser and sometimes stip the whole distributor if it needs cleaning. Put it all back together, then crank the engine over and set the dwell. Then take the timing light and set the timing in the same manner. Then hook up the fuel line and she should start right up. Final tweaking can then be done but it gets you so dam close it isnt funny!!
Also about the direct 12v bypass for the coil when starting is correct. The wire usually says "AUX" which hooks to the AUX terminal on the alternator on PCM engines. Its a diode stack and when it fails (shorts out) you wont be able to shut the engine off with the key. If it fails (opens up) then your engine wont start until after the key is released while its still spinning (no spark during cranking). Also be careful not to use automotive plug wires in boats with points. Most wires sold today for autos are for high energy ignition (HEI) and use carbon as a conductor. Older boat wires are not carbon, but solid copper center resistor wire. This is alot lower in resistance than carbon. They dont run solid copper (no resistance) because the no one within a 1/2 mile would be able to watch TV or listen to a radio. ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-23-2005 at 3:37am
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Thanks for the tips Jeff...I have the OEM spec wires from Ski Dim coming in.
Thanks for the insight on the 12V bypass. If the service manual is correct, there should be a wire coming off the solenoid and attaching to the output side of the ballast resistor. This works so that when the starter solenoid is engaged, a full 12V is sent to the coil, the instant, the starter is engaged, and no longer. I had a dwell meter handy to make sure the point spacing was perfect. Big help, it was. I just pulled all the plug wires and hooked the meter up to the coil. By cranking the key I was able to dial in the dwell, albiet a half a dozen times, but got pretty good at adjusting the points. Might come in handy one day, as I never knew the mechanics and overall operation of a points style distributor. So are the OEM plug wires full copper? |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: May-24-2005 at 1:34am
Hey billgatesceo, as far as I know they are still copper wires. I made my own to the exact length by purchasing a roll of wire, boots and crimp ends. I achieved a factory look since pre-made wires never seem to be exactly the same length as original. Anyway, now I will answer your question about direct 12v to the coil when starting. Your idea would work, but you would need a hefty diode in series with the output of the starter solenoid, or a single pole single throw normally open relay with the relay coil tied to the starter solenoid output and feeding your own supply of +12v to the contacts. The reason being is that everything is fine while cranking but when the key is in the "ON" position, the ballast resistor will try to backfeed to the starter and either cook the resistor or blow a fuse. You would get such a huge voltage drop in that line trying to run the starter that the engine will die when the key is released. Also for reference, never crank the engine with no spark plugs, wires. dist cap, rotor, etc. This will ruin the coil. Coils of that voltage extreme need a place for the juice to go. If it cant go anywhere, its likely to flash internally causing the coil to eventually fail. Coil manufacturers love this! Coils dont fail often on their own. Our 74 mustang 17 we have had since new has over 1000 hrs, and the coil is original and still strong. If your gonna turn the engine over pull the coil plug wire and run a clip lead from the coil high voltage output to ground. Hope this all helps out!!!!  ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-25-2005 at 12:35am
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I got the new plug wires on today. I must say that I think the high rpm missing problem fixed by changing the wires. I let her run up to 3K plus, and not a single miss. Will find out for sure tomorrow when we go out to board.
Jeff...thanks for the tip to not burn the coil up. I have been taking of the plug wires into the distributor. I would have thought that you would of at least needed the wire going from the coil to the distributor, to make it pulse...now that I think of it, I guess the wire running from the condensor/points to the coil would do this. Thanks for all the help guys, and hopefully I won't be posting an additional problem tomorrow night. Now it's on to a full buff/polish. I have been waiting for this...most gratification turning an old oxidized boat into looking like showroom condition. Cheers |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-26-2005 at 1:17am
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Took her out today...she ran like a top. After we emptied about 1100lbs of water out I took her for a spin right before loading it up on the trailer. She ran up the 43mph turning about 4100rpm. No misses, nothing. When we were boarding, I could hammer on the throttle, and she jumped right out of the hole.
Thanks for all the help guys..now I can enjoy it and not worry about it running right. Plus, if it does start to run crappy, I have a much better know how on all the systems. Now on to the cosmetics. Oven cleaning, all the stripes off and a full buff and polish. Then onto the floors, and carpet. I must say, this thing throws a sick wake when loaded up. There were some SAN out today, and the wake was almost on par. Come find me in the General Discussion section, as I will soon start a thread on the buffing progress. Cheers, Brandon |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: May-26-2005 at 2:14am
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Congrats on getting it running great. It's an awesome feeling isn't? When you put the coal to it and it throws you back in the seat...then the even better feeling that you got it to that point yourself...
Enjoy, but don't sell your tools at a garage sale. On older boats like ours, there's always something that needs adjusting or replacing or just tinkered with. I'm moving on to spiffing up the finish also. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-26-2005 at 12:41pm
| Yeah...I wouldn't worry too much about selling my tools. I should post a pic of my tool box that I will always carry with me in the boat. Plus I have an old '90 300ZX and a slightly newer Caddy Deville that I always have to work on (timing belt, A/C) etc. I've always liked working on engines and eventhough have had no formal training...the web is an invaluable resource. |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-26-2005 at 7:29pm
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The web has changed my life. 100% of my income is derived there. That's why I am here, sitting in my underware with coffee cup in hand, all day long, every day. Anyone remember Maynord G. Crebs? What? Me work?
------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: May-28-2005 at 8:36am
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