Windsor vs PCM
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: Common Questions
Forum Discription: Visit here first for common questions regarding your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16400
Printed Date: May-21-2024 at 2:19am
Topic: Windsor vs PCM
Posted By: skicat2001
Subject: Windsor vs PCM
Date Posted: January-28-2010 at 10:46pm
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Hello guys,
I have been pondering and wondering about the difference between Windsor motors and PCM's. I have a couple questions I guess I know you guys can answer. After seeing some of posts of people's boat's and having different motors, of either a PCM or a Windsor Ford engine. Did Nautique choose to spread the options out with different motors between these two or is that a peoples choice. I see different rigs, maybe be the same style boat and have different motors. And which one is better in power, and is the better motor. Is it just preference or is one better than the other?  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Replies:
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: January-28-2010 at 11:07pm
The Windsor is the motor and pcm indmar merc. etc. is the marinizer.  ------------- Brian |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-28-2010 at 11:17pm
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oK, i gotcha.. Stupid question but had to ask. Can you find 390 Ford's anymore? Or they extinct for marine... ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-28-2010 at 11:27pm
The 352/390 is a old big block of Ford. To my knoledge, they haven't been marinized since the late 60's by Interceptor. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
skicat2001 wrote:Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-28-2010 at 11:38pm
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Wow! I wonderd if you could find one anymore. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 12:27am
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You can find anything you want,you just have to think positive.Check out Alan's thread (about 3/4 the way down) http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12350&KW=Chrysler+hemi&PN=4&title=1955-cc-hurricane-restoration - Alan's Hemi .
I even found a original wheel for mine after looking for quite awhile. You just have to be patient, the things are out there. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 8:59am
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Lee,
Gary's correct!! Alan's find is a great example. Not many 331 Hemi's around! Phil just picked up a 390 Interceptor for his 1st generation SN. I found the 1927 Universal Flexifour for my 1918. Are you looking for a 390? What for? If so, keep a lookout http://www.marineengine.com/cgi-bin/suite/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?request=display_sub_list&category_id=107&sub_id=1039&variable_file=gasinboards.variables&website=default&set=1&group=1&session=4b62be543b0c29ab - on this site . Ebay isn't a bad spot ether. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 11:07am
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Pete,
Yea I would like to do an upgrade from that 351 in a yr or so. I would think a 390 would fit in 85 2001.. Them old style ford motors are animals, and they last a long time. When I made the comment earlier about my dad's best friend, he had a 390 Ford Police Interceptor in his 1967 Century Resorter, and refer back then about them. Would I see a huge difference from the 351 I have know? Mine is healthy..  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 11:22am
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Theres may be some mixed opinions about the performance differences. This is off the subject but that makes me think I remember seeing a bfn with a 460 in it, was this an option or am I imagining it? anyone? ------------- Brian |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 11:30am
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a 460? damb.. The only thing I have seen is the 454 in Barefoots.. 460!! WOW! ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 11:45am
You've got to really look at the HP/torque curves of different engines and compare them. You just can't say that a 390 is going to outperform a 351 especially when you need to factor in engine weight. Back in "the good old days", it was a common bragging right to claim someone had a "police interceptor" engine. Many would even claim that the Interceptor engine was marinized by the same company that did the engines for the police cars. Not true and goes along with the bragging rights of peoples claims to how fast their boat would go. Of course this was before the days of GPS!!! I'd have to say your dads friend was stretching the truth! Yes the Century's were fast compaired to other boats. They were a light weight hull (single plank) and they were notorious for putting big engines in. A engine built up for a police car is a poor choice for a marine application. Ideally, different torque/HP curves were used back then. I have the 390 Interceptor marine HP/torque curve at home and can post some specs later. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 11:58am
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You may not gain a any hp or torque with a 390 over a 351, but if you've ever heard the exhaust tone of an old big block Ford like Reid Pinkham's Classic, the 351's just don't compare. If you want to be practical, go with the 351. If you want something that's unusual, classic and cool, 390. ------------- |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 12:47pm
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Pete and Bruce,
Yea the ol 390 was a great motor, and I would like to see the specs on it. He had the 21ft Resorter which where heavy, fiberglass bottom with Mahogony wood on the sides.. Beautiful Boats, his took for every to jump out of the hole but once it plained, oooo wweee.. Bruce, if that is right on the 351 ford and 390 ford, I love the sound of a direct drive crusing, but If the 390 does not add more than I just assume stay with the 351 then..  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 12:49pm
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Pete,
If you have a 390 and maybe want to sell it though, I could take it off your hands if you want or if choose to do so. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 1:01pm
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Lee, It will be interesting to see what Pete's charts indicate. A 351 is definately more practical. Until about a year ago, I didn't understand why anyone would want to fool around with these old obsolete engines. I really thought why not just drop a new crate Vortec or rebuilt 351 in and be done with it? But, I am learning that this old obsolete stuff is really cool. But, maybe not for you as your boat is probably your regular ride. ------------- |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-29-2010 at 1:41pm
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Yes sir Bruce,
I was raised ol school.. The old style engines by Windsar where cool, at least to me they are. I think V-Drive was the stupidest thing they ever came up with. My opionion though.. Love them old style big block motor.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-30-2010 at 2:32pm
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Lee,
Looking at the 390 HP/torque curve, as it was marinized by Interceptor, it shows a max HP of 260 at 4400 RPM. Torque max's out at 190 at about 2750 RPM. Sorry I don't have the specs on the 351 but I'm sure someone like Alan can chime in. Now, it would also be interesting to get some input from Reid who had the H/M boys do the job on his 390!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-30-2010 at 2:39pm
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Pete, 190? That cant be right. Im guessing either you mis-typed or were looking at the wrong scale for the Tq curve? Something with that many cubes should have at least 300ft-lb. ------------- |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-30-2010 at 3:54pm
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Stock Interceptor 390s had from 260 hp to 300 hp, depending on the year and model. ------------- |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-30-2010 at 3:57pm
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Ok sounds good Pete, Thanks for those specs. If I can do some reasearch between the two and the 390 comes out better, I will start shopping. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-30-2010 at 4:00pm
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Tim,
The low torque surprised me as well! I too would have thought it would have been higher. I double checked the graph I have and the 190 is it??? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-30-2010 at 4:17pm
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EDIT!!!!!!
Well, the graph I have is a photo copy and very hard to read. I took the magnifying glass to it. Tim, it's 390 Ft. Lbs. at about the 2750 RPM. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 1:50am
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I doubt anyone's a bigger fan of the 390 or BBF than I am. Like Bruce stated though, I don't feel it's the best or most practical option for an engine upgrade in a later model boat, but more suited as a vintage-correct upgrade in an older boat. However, practicalilty hasn't always been the basis for many of the engine upgrades seen on this site. In your case Lee, I feel the more-increasing common family of 351 Windsor stroker engines in the 393 or 408 variety would prove to be a less expensive and more powerful option. We just ordered a 408 destined for a 1992 Excel in place of a 351, which will be installed in the next 8 weeks.
I believe Bruce likes the sound of our 390 mainly because it's a little louder from the higher 10.3 compression. But even with a cam upgrade, Edelbrock intake, and the higher compression, the Desktop Dyno only showed +/-330hp, up from the original 300 factory rated hp. A 351 stroker will surpass that with ease. But if you really like the classic looks of that FE Ford big block, they actually now sell valve cover adaptors for the 351 allowing the installation of the BBF wide/tall style covers. They're popular with the Cobra kit car guys searching for that original 427BBF look. They increase the width of the engine by about 2" but I doubt they'll fit with the standard center-rise exhausts. Food for thought. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 10:40am
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i dont want to rain on your Ford parade Reid ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 10:43am
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i will though, the 460 engine was converted from a steam engine somewhere back in the old days, actually you do see alot of the BBF in jet boats.
Reid, im more of a ford fan now than i was 2 or 3 years ago ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 12:20pm
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Eric, Raining on my parade on this website is next to impossible as it's one of the very few remaining Ford strongholds. As for the 460 origins, you're slightly off as I have it on good authority that it was the basis for the original Nasa solid rocket booster engine.
Glad to see that your're at least tolerant these days. Along that same line, I never thought I'd never have a GM powered boat, but i've grown very fond of that 6.0. On top of that, in an even more surprising move, I just recenting purchased our first-ever GM work truck, a 2500 with what engine (?), a 6.0. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 12:40pm
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6.0's will go down in history, BTW when they shot that 460 into space they shouldve left it there lol, nice to hear from you ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 12:42pm
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I've become a Ford fan, too. Back in '92 when my buddy called me from NC to tell me he found this beautiful ski boat on Lake Lure for the right price, I was disappointed to learn that it had a rare PCM 351 rather than a common Merc 350. That engine didn't take long to win me over, but exposure to CCF really reeled me in. Now I prefer a Ford. ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 12:49pm
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i still would put a bbc in an ole model A,lol i wouldnt touch a ford before this site, always Bowtie....now only if they would marinize one of those new 5.7 Hemis ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 12:50pm
Speaking of the 460, didn't Chrysler marinize the Ford after they stopped production of their own BB???  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 1:03pm
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Pete, those are bmfrs, I bought a hit charger rt with the hemi, slow on the roll but after that the afterburners kick, all aluminum block, heads, real light, real fast, chrysler did a fine job building this one ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 1:52pm
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bmfrs?? Big MF'rs? Yes, Pete's right though, that Chrysler did use the 460 once they quit building the 440's. Those were built/sold during Chrysler's last few years before the government bail-out mandated that they drop the marine division back in 93-94??
I'm with Eric on the desire to see a marine 5.7 or 6.1 Hemi. I'd be surprised if the innovative folks at Indmar hadn't at least put together a prototype. Was it them that built a few Caddy Northstars? ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 2:59pm
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Reid, I believe you are correct that Indmar built those Northstars for a few years for Mastercraft. They also currently have a 383 stroker (6.2 stroked from a 5.7) at 400 hp, which seems to me would be a torqier engine than a 6.0. And they made an LS1 for Malibu which was a very enxpensive Corvette engine that was light and fast on the top end, although interestingly, my friend the Malibu salesman told me they weren't nearly as durable as a 5.7. He said they didn't like to run WFO for very long. I guess they would burn valves pretty easily.
Speaking of Indmar... does anyone know what carb this is? It is a duel feed and seems bigger than a 4160. I haven't seen them in any Holley catalogs.  ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 4:34pm
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i did see one on top of the 460 but made the guy take it back, i believe it was a 600cfm or 650 with 2 accelerator pumps and the 460 couldnt handle that initial blast, you would have to feather it until you were up on top.
Reid bad mother fkr ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 8:38pm
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You guys are posting some great specs and info on here. You guys ruffled even the "Main Man".. Mr Lavine.. I am a Ford guy for marine, Chevy or Chrylser can not match what Ford can do with marine motors. My opinion though. The old style big blocks Fords where King, and think why have most of these new v-drives choose 6.0 vortec motors know. Malibu, and MasterCraft, i think put chevys in them know. I will stay with Ford in my boat.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: January-31-2010 at 8:42pm
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Bruce,
Nice motor.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 6:33pm
Yes Lee, that is a good looking motor Bruce posted there, but I'm sure you'll agree that a nice 390 makes for a better viewing experience. I can't wait to see Bruce's 390. But wait, we're trying to sell you on sticking with a Windsor aren't we. Well with the valve cover adaptors, a Windsor can look just about like this 390 here.
 ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 6:52pm
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Darn Reid, where was that first picture a few weeks ago? That pic should have made the calender! I've got to talk to you about that blower. I thought Classics had no ventilation, but I see you have some. ------------- |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 7:46pm
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Bruce,
So you are saying the 351 can look like that one.. I wish! I love those 390's.. Love that interceptor..  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 7:48pm
Thanks Bruce, but the vinyl floor and center beam were just too dirty. Maybe we can try again for next years calender. Our Classic has the exhaust blower, but no forced or passive intake on the deck. Air can however, enter the bilge or engine compartment thru the engine box scoop. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 7:50pm
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Excuse me, I meant Reid.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 11:00pm
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Lee,
I've got to warn you about those HP decals Reid puts on his engines. His printer will put any number he wants on them!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 11:27pm
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pete,
lol.. looks good though if he did.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-01-2010 at 11:38pm
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I can remeber those days of the sound and power of the 390, and the night cruises with Glenn Miller. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 10:51am
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Lee, You're a little confused. It's Pete Brainard and his Grey Marine that used to cruise to Glenn Miller. That was way before Reid's and my time. 390's go with Beach Boys and the Daytonas. ------------- |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 11:17am
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Bruce,
Yes sir.. Those beach boys are great to an evening cruise. I think too, after you guys posted all your pics and specs, I guess I will be a Windsor guy, and stay away from Indmar and Cleveland. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 11:38am
Could be an earlier model or derrivitive of this, prior to the plastic accel pump levers... http://www.holley.com/0-9022.asp ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 12:09pm
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4150 holley "double pumper" a little longer due to the added metering block between rear bowl and base. Could be any cfm small or large, a little more tuning capabilities ------------- Brian |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 12:23pm
Or it could be a 4160 with a rear metering block conversion kit. Looks the same on that side! The other side would show vaccuum secondaries (or lack thereof) and would confirm. Bruce, the 750cfm and larger 4160/4150's have the dual feed like the carb pictured. We've got a 750cfm 4160 (converted metering block) on the BFN. ------------- |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 12:27pm
I agree,just made the assumption  ------------- Brian |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 1:09pm
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I don't have a picture of the other side, but wouldn't a 750cfm be too large for a 5.7 GM? I wondered if it was a specially made 600cfm for Malibu. The intake seems to be specially made as it has their name on it. I don't know if it's aluminum or not. They put a rubbery paint on their engines and cover everything up. I used to think those plastic Corvette valve covers looked good, but they're not nearly as good looking as those chrome ones on that 390. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 1:13pm
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Bruce, its most likely a 750cfm or larger- Ive never seen a 600cfm with the dual feed. That is on the large side for a 350, though not out of the question if its a good breathing engine. If its a 383 or LS engine, that would explain it too. ------------- |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 1:23pm
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Holley web site you'll see the 600 4150 is a dual feed
Tim headers?  ------------- Brian |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 2:04pm
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That's the carb on our Sportster. It's a 310hp 5.7 Vortec. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 3:19pm
Ahh, that must be it then. I didnt realize there was such an animal. thats probably what you have, Bruce. Nice headers. We're looking for some for the BFN now... looks like those would have some motorbox clearance issues though! ------------- |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 3:26pm
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Unless its an illusion? Best I can think is to have him bolt one up and get a measurement from c/l of engine and up from base of cyl head to top. I think they were on an 80s Baja and are basset (I think) I knew you were looking for a set and will let you know what I find out as I would like a set as well but I beleive the flange would be bakards on mine? Have you got a price on hiteks for your app? sorry for the threadjack, Tim if you want to email me directly its in my diary ------------- Brian |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-02-2010 at 3:56pm
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Brian, Im not sure about the flange being backwards... I guess its possible if it came out of a jetboat or I/O instead of a v-drive. I hadnt thought about that before! Nice catch.
Let me know what you find out about those. Seems like a lot of the jet's and v-drives used dry headers (sometimes theyre "water injected") rather than fully jacketed like we would want. These appear to be the latter, while I think Bassets are generally dry or injected. I do think those look exceptionally tall though, and probably wont work for either of us... no motorbox clearance issues for the jetboat crowd! ------------- |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: February-05-2010 at 2:58pm
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Wow, Reids pic reminded me of one I almost bought back in the early 80's. 1967 19' Resorter w/ 427 Int.
Had two nice fork lift holes in the transom. Green/Silver interior. Boat sold for 700. Ouch! |