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1989 SN Water in Oil / Wet Plug

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KENO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2023 at 12:29pm
If the damper gives up on you, you jack up the back of the engine and pull the transmission and bellhousing to change it.

If looking at prices, there is a Sachs/Alto DA-106 which you have to trim, DA106A pre trimmed or an HGE 4K2C which also needs trimming and other more expensive stuff is out there too

Here's a link to a fairly recent thread with those brands discussed along with a few other things. Wink


Edit.....Greg reminded me that he has a PCM transmission so the plates mentioned above won't work.

He would need the pricey 15 spline damper plate from PCM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-23-2023 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Greg_SA Greg_SA wrote:

Will also look into the new damper plate - only down side is that he price doubles by the time it gets to me Confused But I also don't want to have a "new" engine that I need to pull again soon.

Is there an advantage to having a 'friend' buy the needed items in the US and then sending you a 'gift'?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2023 at 1:35am
So I had a look at the long block that is available at the engine rebuilder. I think it is a good option - price is good and I don't really have other options available Tongue

It has slightly different heads to mine. Older style rockers? Not sure if that is a big deal. It has been standing for 8 months - could that cause any internal rusting, etc? Anyone notice an issue with the engine?






The plan is for me to pull my engine (at a friends workshop) strip all the parts from my engine and supply them, with the necessary gaskets. I'll probably clean up most of the parts (respray) as I supply them.

Then the engine rebuilder will fit them, respray the engine to "original" silver color and then test run the motor.

After that I'll fit it to my boat.
1989 Ski Nautique (SN2001)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2023 at 8:02am
Sounds like a pretty good plan Wink

Those rocker arms are the older style rail type rocker arms from the 70's. Nothing wrong with them at all.

if the block is from the 70's also, you'll have a 2 piece rear main seal instead of the later 1  piece seal

That looks like a front sump oil pan in the pictures, so swapping pans and pickups should be in the plan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2023 at 2:18pm
The mechanical fuel pump was removed and replaced with a block-off plate.  Interesting for a block from the 1970’s.  EFI conversion maybe?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2023 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:

The mechanical fuel pump was removed and replaced with a block-off plate.  Interesting for a block from the 1970’s.  EFI conversion maybe?

JQ

Or an electric fuel pump putting out 5 or so psi

Or maybe just blocked off while the engine is being rebuilt at the machine shop

Just make sure there's a fuel pump eccentric in place when the timing cover is swapped 

The eccentric and the timing chain need to be matched. If it's a 2 piece eccentric like your 89 should have, then you need a timing set for a 2 piece eccentric

Everything from the 89 could be swapped if needed.

That'll all get figured out when you have when the cover off.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2023 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Just make sure there's a fuel pump eccentric in place when the timing cover is swapped 


This. My engine had also been converted to an electric, automotive fuel pump. When I wanted to convert back to a mechanical marine pump, I discovered there was no eccentric fitted to the camshaft. This took me down a rabbit hole of 'while I'm in there I may as well...' eventually replacing water pump, timing set etc. But at least I have peace of mind about all those things now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Faceplant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-25-2023 at 6:37pm
Had to Google after I saw picture. I can honestly say that I have never heard of Tora oil filters before. New one to me.
Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2023 at 2:41am
Thanks Guys. Thumbs Up

I'll check on the fuel pump /timing set. So if there is an eccentric in place on the new engine, then it can stay as is? If not, fit my '89 eccentric and the timing set = chain, and anything else?

Will my PCM aluminum value covers (86 onwards, raised oil filler) fit those heads? Are the clearances for the rockers the same on the different heads?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2023 at 6:52am
One more thing... My alternator has a lot of washers and spacers to get it to fit the lower bracket.

The lower mount is much smaller (shorter) than OEM, otherwise looks the same.

Could it be a automotive alternator? It has been working fine for the last 15 years...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-26-2023 at 7:35am
Originally posted by Greg_SA Greg_SA wrote:

Thanks Guys. Thumbs Up

I'll check on the fuel pump /timing set. So if there is an eccentric in place on the new engine, then it can stay as is? If not, fit my '89 eccentric and the timing set = chain, and anything else?

Will my PCM aluminum value covers (86 onwards, raised oil filler) fit those heads? Are the clearances for the rockers the same on the different heads?


If there's an eccentric installed, then you can bolt on your original timing cover and install the mechanical fuel pump. The pump doesn't care if it rides on a 1 or 2 piece eccentric.

Your 89 valve covers will fit with those rockers and you know they'll clear the exhaust manifolds too...........and they'll look better too Wink

The alternator..............hard to say from the pictures if it's marine, any numbers stamped in the housing? probably no stickers with a part number?

Here's a picture from an old thread showing a Motorola marine alternator

Prestolite, Motorola ..............one became a division of the other I think.


Has the same box covering the brush area for spark protection

I'd say it's a definite "maybe" Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2023 at 11:40am
Looking at your pictures, the picture of your engine showing the Oil filter and above the filter you can see inside all 4 exhaust ports.   The first 3 look very good and have been burning clean.  The 4 th port is black so it has not been burning clean, might be burning oil or have bad valve seal.   Maybe it is just a bad camera angle but you can learn a lot looking inside the exhaust ports.   If you wipe a finger in the exhaust port and it comes away dry and chalky that is very good, if the port is damp at all the engine has been burning oil in that cylinder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2023 at 12:56pm
Cool, I am going to try get a proper spacer made for the alternator.

A few more questions... sorry for being a pain Wink  My original engine has a 3-bolt balancer/pulley but the new motor has a 4 bolt.

I assume I should just swop over my parts? Looks like C9OE-6316-E2

I have read that the crank and balancer should match. But it is 28oz for all 351w engines, correct?

Then I'll need a full timing gasket set - I see this is available locally: Fel-pro TCS45008 or TCS45168.
Or are there better options to consider?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2023 at 1:03pm
Regarding the oil at the exhaust ports... I'll have a better look as soon as possible. Could it me oil from the valve cover?

The other side:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2023 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Greg_SA Greg_SA wrote:

Cool, I am going to try get a proper spacer made for the alternator.

A few more questions... sorry for being a pain Wink  My original engine has a 3-bolt balancer/pulley but the new motor has a 4 bolt.

I assume I should just swop over my parts? Looks like C9OE-6316-E2

I have read that the crank and balancer should match. But it is 28oz for all 351w engines, correct?

Then I'll need a full timing gasket set - I see this is available locally: Fel-pro TCS45008 or TCS45168.
Or are there better options to consider?



Swap your harmonic balancer to the new engine and use all of your old pulleys and everything will line up with no issues. Like you said all 351w's are 28 oz imbalance. 

Either of those Felpro numbers will work. The 45168 comes with a speedi sleeve for where the seal rides on the balancer snout. The 45008 doesn't have the sleeve. 

If you can get a Felpro 35019 gasket, it goes between the water pump body and the backing plate, if you want to check out the impeller in the pump while it's off. Depending on the pump it might take a little trimming. It's not needed if you don't take the backing plate off the pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-27-2023 at 5:42pm
Since you're replacing the oil pan also, if you take the pan off first then take the timing cover off, then do your oil pump related stuff, then when putting things back together put the timing cover on first.

That way you can use the complete oil pan gasket instead of using those annoying cork corner seals that come in the timing cover gasket set (they're for replacing the cover without taking the oil pan off)

Here's a thread of Wilhelm's with some related info and pictures along with some unrelated stuff Wink


If by chance the new engine has a high volume oil pump, I'd test fit the pan first since typically the marine pan won't fit over the taller high volume pump.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2023 at 6:26am
So I have pulled the engine and stripped all the parts I need. Bust cleaning/painting them.

Now that I have the damper out, I can see that the springs are not a tight fit - they have some play. Should they be tight? I have not heard any noise or had any problems previously.

If I replace, are there other options for the other than OEM?

Keno, the DA106A that you mentioned - I think that is for the BW transmission with the 26 spline input?

I believe the PCM40A is 15 spline?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2023 at 7:03am
Originally posted by Greg_SA Greg_SA wrote:


Keno, the DA106A that you mentioned - I think that is for the BW transmission with the 26 spline input?

I believe the PCM40A is 15 spline?

Here's where I get to say "oops"  Wink

You're right, I forgot this was an 89 with a PCM transmission.

The PCM plate is over twice the cost, I'm not sure if there's an aftermarket version.

I suppose if it's been working good, you and the machine shop guys could determine if the little slop is too much 

To me, a little movement is OK, but you actually have it in your hands to look at

For what it'll cost you over there, I'd probably reuse what you have now.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-14-2023 at 12:53am
Hi Guys,

Just a quick update... I have been cleaning and painting all the engine parts. Rebuilding all the engine mounts, etc.

This week I'll drop parts off with the engine builder to fit them to the new engine.

Cheers,
Greg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2023 at 8:14am
Any advise on this harmonic balancer...



- Leave as is?
- Hard chrome the surface?
- Speedi sleeve?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2023 at 12:01pm
The part that matters is the fine line that circles the shaft 360*, that is where your seal rides to seal the oil.   It does not look bad.  I would polish it a little with 400 grit wet and dry paper, you will still be able to see the line from the old seal probably but normally they seal up just fine with a brand new seal.   If it worries you there are sleeves available you can buy which basically slip over the harmonic balancer and give you a new running surface.   Known a Speedy Sleeves or Reid Sleeves.   You can buy a kit that has the sleeve and new seal.
Yours does not look that bad to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2023 at 12:13pm
Me and MMcD

We agree..................I'm a poet and don't even know it Wink

In the picture it looks pretty good.....all the ugly stuff is outboard of the outer lip or dust seal.

What timing cover gasket set did you buy or are planning on buying.

You mentioned Felpro TCS 45008 and TCS 45168 being available locally.

Like mentioned earlier, the 45168 set has a speedi sleeve included in the kit. The 45008 doesn't..

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 2:32am
Thanks guys Thumbs Up I got the same advise from a friend that helped me pull the engine.

I'll give it a light clean up.

I'll tell the engine builder to get the seal kit with the speedi sleeve anyway. Getting frustrated - the engine builder is taking long to commit to any dates Confused Might consider doing the job myself if it takes much longer!

Do you think the seals in the 2 kits are exactly the same, or does the seal in the speedi sleeve kit match the large diameter required by the sleeve?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 6:57am
The same seal is used with the speedi sleeve, the sleeve is just slightly bigger than the shaft when installed.

Back in Wilhelm's thread there were some measurements   1.875 shaft diameter before a sleeve and 1.900 after the sleeve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2023 at 1:23pm
Finally received the last of the parts Tongue

I bought a new damper plate, the new version, R140020.

Everything lines up well, but the plate is the same size as the outside of the flywheel. Is that normal?

I assume the starter gear will clear?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2023 at 7:41pm
I think you may have to take PCM's word that it works or do a trial installation to verify that it works.

I think the main reason for trimming the plate for a Borg Warner like a DA-106 was because the ears stuck out far enough that they made physical contact with the internal reinforcing ribs on some 351w bellhousings (they were far enough behind the flywheel that they hit the ribs), so the fix to work with any bellhousing was to trim down to the same OD (about 12 inches) as the original plates.

edit............deleted some questionable info

Here's a picture of one with internal ribs, yours may be smooth, but going back to the first sentence is the safe thing to do.Wink Talk to whoever you bought it from. Everything in the advertisements says it fits


The starter teeth shouldn't go far enough back to interfere
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-23-2023 at 1:08am
Thanks Keno. My bellhousing does have ribs - it is exactly the same as your photo. R142001. The PCM manual only shows this one bellhousing option.

I'll just make sure there is clearance when I fit it Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-23-2023 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Greg_SA Greg_SA wrote:

Thanks Keno. My bellhousing does have ribs - it is exactly the same as your photo. R142001. The PCM manual only shows this one bellhousing option.

I'll just make sure there is clearance when I fit it Thumbs Up

The PCM parts manual shows only one option or part number  for lots of things that have had changes made over the years. Bellhousings  heads. block, intake manifolds for carbureted 351's, exhaust manifolds, carburetors, ECM's for gt40 engines all come to mind kinda quickly as having one part number but have seen changes over time due to suppliers making changes etc..

I think if they say the plate works, then it should but it's a good idea to check the clearance like you plan to do.

PS...........I'll post a picture of a smooth bellhousing later
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-23-2023 at 12:36pm
If it has clearance run it as is.   If it rubs I would do a little grinding on the bell housing.   The flex plate is a balanced unit.  I would not try to reduce the size of the rotating parts you might create a shaker.  A small amount of aluminum ground off the bell housing should not affect the strength if you are conservative making clearance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-23-2023 at 5:46pm
Here's a picture of a smooth  no internal ribs bellhousing for a 351w

It's not really all dirty and scuzzy, it's just just the camera angle or the lighting or maybe your eyeballs Wink

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