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Acceleration issues. |
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MrMcD 
Grand Poobah 
Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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 Topic: Acceleration issues.Posted: December-11-2023 at 9:35pm |
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When my 78 Nautique started fouling one spark plug in a pretty short time we found low compression, like you right at 90 in that one cylinder. When I pulled the heads one exhaust valve was burned with a small pie shape missing. New heads had it running better than ever. I was around 1,000 hours on the engine with the burned valve.
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AZ86SKI
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Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Posted: December-11-2023 at 12:37pm |
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Thank you KENO. The new fuel line has been ordered.
Regarding the compression, we did do a compression test awhile back. Everything was in the 150-160 range except one cylinder (#7) which was 90 or so. A wet test on that cylinder only brought it up to about 100 which seemed to indicate perhaps more of a valve issue. It was interesting that the one cylinder was a bit low since a previous check in the mechanics notes had them all about the same. Thanks Tommrupp for the suggestion, anything is possible with this boat. I am hoping that a new fuel line will do the trick. Seemed to work for 63 skier at one point, so it can't hurt to give it a try. Thanks again for all the help.
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Tomrupp
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Posted: December-11-2023 at 8:54am |
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Have you completed a compression test? I have followed this thread from the beginning. Forgive me if this was already covered. We had a missing 1/2” of head gasket material starboard side between the 2 cylinders closest to drivers seat (1&2?). It’s a 351 Ford. The boats symptoms were rough idle, sluggish power and inconsistent running. We were lucky to have a knowledgeable and generous friend to help us to tear it down, order parts and put it back together. Thank you Jim G. Running much better now as a full v8.
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Tom
94 Ski Nautique Open Bow 351 with Carb 95 Double Decker Aqua Patio with 50hp Honda (3 carbs). |
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KENO
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Posted: December-10-2023 at 6:55pm |
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It's 3/8 ID and something like this in the link is good hose
Use PND for the discount code and you'll save a little bit. And as far as the prop.....yup, found your post on July 14th of 2022
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: December-10-2023 at 4:22pm |
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Hey KENO, The prop markings are 7 85 FEDERAL NI-BRAL CUP 13RH13, which I think you had me check way back when I started down this road. Although double and triple checking things on this boat have not only become necessary, but a requirement  . However, something did catch my eye after staring at the boat for awhile. I noticed what appeared to be an original hose fastener on the fuel line from the tank to the fuel/water separator. I was under the impression that line had been replaced by previous owner when dealing with the tank during some deck repairs. Along with the previous fuel pressure and fuel flow tests I did at idle appearing normal, I assumed we were good there. That's what I get. I went ahead and removed the fuel line and it does appear to be the original. The markings on the fuel hose are "Nautical 317 USCG Type A Hose 1985 2015". I can blow air thru the fuel line but it does feel a bit restricted, but at this point it could just be wishful thinking. In any event, a 37 year old fuel line needs to be replaced anyway. It doesn't say what diameter hose it is. I know to get USCG approved fuel line, but I don't know what size or the maybe a recommendation for a source. Thanks!
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KENO
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Posted: December-08-2023 at 12:45pm |
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I'll agree that your charging system is good even with the wrong color wires.
It's doing what it should. While you're posting sideways pictures of things, how about a couple or a few of your prop, especially any markings that show the pitch and diameter You may have to take the prop nut off to see any markings on the back part of the hub, or if you have a puller, take it completely off.. There's been a little mention of the prop in this thread but not much and since it's the thing that loads or in this case can overload your engine, it would be one more thing to look at. It would have been a 13X13 3 blade originally. (non CNC since they weren't around back then)
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: December-08-2023 at 11:34am |
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Thank you samudj01. Good to know yours is set up the same way, since electrical is not my strongest skill. I have also been following along on your 72 Skier project. Very impressive work
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samudj01
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Posted: December-07-2023 at 3:30pm |
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We have been working on this too as we are wiring the skier. The way you are set up is the same way we set up the tique (Jesse took a look at it yesterday). Ultimately bypassing the ammeter (ours is broken). I don’t think the way you are set up would cause acceleration issues.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: December-07-2023 at 3:10pm |
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I found some time and motivation to chase some wires. Motivation being JQ now has two fancy running boats and I can't seem to get one to run right
. So I did a little Columbo work and followed the wires from the alternator to see where they all led.I was able to get a photo of the back of the distributor without removing the alternator showing a diagram of the wiring. See below.  I know it is a bit tough to see. There are four wiring indicators. Field Terminal - Where the green wire is connected. The red you see is just the connector, not the wire. Regulator Terminal - Where the red wire is connected. Ground Terminal - Where the black wire is connected. Output Terminal - Where the blue/grey wire is connected. This wire must have been replaced at some point as KENO indicated as the wiring schematics show it should be orange but we are going with the blue/gray that is there now. The red, black and green all work there way back to the external voltage regulator and all of this wiring looks fairly clean and original. See below. Posted sideways.  The blue/grey wire (that should be orange) goes from the output terminal on the distributor to the back of the breaker. This where the wiring has a much more homegrown appearance. It is connected at the same location on the breaker as a red wire that then runs to a large connector that then runs in wiring harness back up towards the front of the boat. Here is a photo of the back of the breaker. Posted sideways as well. .  I don't see in the schematics a breaker at all. However, where the blue/gray (should be orange) wire connects at the breaker with the red wire, the red wire then leads into the wiring harness as displayed in the schematics. It seems like the battery is charging as it should with tests we ran on the trailer. Anyone see anything that could be causing any strange voltage readings on the gauge or more importantly solving our last remaining issue of lack of power under load and only achieving 2300-2500 RPM under load? Here is a photo of the solenoid/relay as well while we are dealing with the electrical just in case that is helpful. The smaller red wire you see coming in from the top left (as the photo sits) comes in from the breaker but the opposite side of the breaker where the blue/grey is connected. Posted sideways as well.  Any thoughts, guidance or possible solutions would be greatly appreciated. If it all checks out then we are left the last remaining issue of only achieving 2300-2500 RPM under load. Thanks for the help everyone, I really appreciate it. |
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KENO
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Posted: November-17-2023 at 1:32pm |
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There's an old thread with a schematic that resembles the one you posted.
It's in the link below The "broken" part of the diagram is somewhat fixed in your later diagram, but the later diagram you have seems to have left out the ballast resistor for the points distributor in the diagram and done nothing to show the Neutral Safety Switch or Main Breaker They both show an ammeter setup which has a different approach to getting power to the dash and back to charge the battery. If you get confused, ask questions, don't just start cutting wires |
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: November-17-2023 at 11:35am |
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KENO, I did find an electrical schematic for the Commander in the owners manual. So I am going to post it here for reference. There was also some original flyers for some ski schools in Florida along with an original Correct Craft Tribune magazine from 1986 in the owner's manual binder. Some interesting articles to include Twiggy the water skiing squirrel and Magic the water skiing poodle who used Ski Nautique tow boats. Who knew? I will try to post those in the reference section at some point for fun. I will start following wires and see what I find.  |
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KENO
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Posted: November-17-2023 at 7:35am |
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That little blue box right next to your solenoid is an external voltage regulator for the alternator
If you follow the wires from the regulator you'll end up at the alternator Right about the mid 80's the swap to internally regulated alternators was happening with Ford marine engines so you may have the older externally regulated setup from the looks of it It seems like in spite of some funny wiring, the system is working and sending about 14 volts to the battery, but the Red wire is a mystery till you see where that goes When you rev it up, does voltage at the battery drop like you dash gauge did or does it stay pretty steady? All of the terminals on the back of the alternator should be marked from the factory, so that picture of the alternator laying on the floor, workbench or whatever would be real helpful to see just what you have. Since you're wondering about the affect on the ignition system, a temporary jumper from the battery connection at the solenoid to the power input to your distributor would give it that 14 ish volts instead of the 12.8 or so that you have now with the wires running up to the dash and back again to give power to the distributor
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: November-16-2023 at 6:28pm |
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The Charging Path is exactly as you described and the wiring around the solenoid being "homegrown" is an understatement. I attached a few photos. I had a feeling that after we replaced the automotive distributor and ignition module a while back that additional electrical issues would possibly follow. The electrical taped wires to and from the breaker never looked right to me so it's time undue or at least verify whatever electrical mess was previously created, which was possibly done to make the automotive distributor work. I have the original owners manual so I will go through it and see what if any electrical diagrams it may have. It amazes me how many issues a boat with only 400 plus hours can have, especially with most of my hours testing on the trailer. Ha. I was able to re-test the red wire at the back of the alternator in the AC mode and it held a steady 32.2. Just FYI. I also tested the light blue big wire and what do you know...a steady 14.06 volts . I should also mention that in addition to the red wire not having the factory crimp, the black and green wires also have additional electrical tape at the crimps that appear homegrown as well. One quick question, does the alternator appear to be the stock or correct alternator? I will begin the process of following the wires and see where they all lead...especially the red wire. I will let you know what I find. Here are some photos of the wiring around the solenoid and breaker for reference. Thanks again for everyone's help and I will definitely need it when it comes to electrical. From the back, it posted sideways  From the top, posted sideways as well.  |
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KENO
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Posted: November-16-2023 at 4:55pm |
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I think that you might need to take the alternator off of the engine to tell what the terminals are labeled and which color wire goes where.
But in the meantime, take your multimeter and check the voltage at the light blue big wire. Pretty much guarantee you'll find about the same voltage as battery voltage, cuz it's the heavy output wire that goes from the alternator to the breaker as you mentioned and from there it goes to the solenoid on the back of the engine (near the breaker) and hooks to the same terminal as the battery cable that goes from the battery to the solenoid. That makes your charging path It also explains why you have some fluctuating readings on the Red wire since it's not the alternator output. That red wire may be on an AC tap and if you put your multimeter on AC volts and check your voltage on the Red wire with the engine running, it probably won't be fluctuating and you'll have a steady AC reading.. Where that red wire goes seems to be a mystery right now, so like mentioned earlier, the best thing you can do is mark what wires are where and take the alternator off for some good clear pictures of the back and follow the wires to the other end wherever it might be...especially the Red wire. That Red wire definitely has that "homegrown " look to it. (The crimp on the ring terminal isn't factory original.) There's no good wiring diagram floating around for a 1986 Commander 351, unless someone pops up in this thread with one. Why there's a big Blue wire on the alternator output instead of the industry standard Orange is another mystery PS........the picture below shows some fairly ugly wiring around the unused ballast resistor, maybe a picture of that wiring from above would be good too.  |
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MrMcD
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Posted: November-16-2023 at 3:09pm |
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The main wire from your alternator to the battery should be a large wire. The alternator even on an old boat will probably put out 45 AMPs to charge your battery and maintain the system. That main wire has to be large enough to handle 45 amps, it might be a 6 foot long wire and the ability to carry amps drops based on how long the wire is, longer runs need a larger wire to produce the same results. I am thinking you might need a #10 wire from the alternator to the Battery. The other wires activate the alternator and do not carry large amp loads but the charging wire needs to be heavy.
You could make sure all the connections are clean and tight on the rear of the alternator but it seems to be working so far. First sign the wire is not large enough would be that wire getting warm or even hot while the alternator is charging the battery. The entire gauge cluster can be taken out for inspection and give access to those wires in the back of it.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: November-16-2023 at 1:53pm |
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Thank you for the quick replies, especially while I still had the boat pulled out and still hooked up on the hose.
First, I wanted to address 63 Skier's question. I know this is getting to be a long post to follow with all the past issues. The last trip to the lake was after replacing the original gasket under the carb which greatly improved starting, idling, re-starts and even better throttle response. This just left the last remaining issue of not being able to get the boat over about 2500 rpm under load. Then this electrical issue arose with the final start at the lake being weak and the voltage meter reading 11 volts all the way back to the dock. So the issue of not getting over 2500 rpm under load remains along with these new electrical questions. I hope that answers what you were asking and thanks again for the help. So here is what my homework revealed... With the boat off, the battery read 12.73 volts. I then ran an ohms check between the black wire post on the alternator and the main ground on the engine block. It read 0.00. I am assuming that's what we were looking for. With the boat running at idle, the voltage gauge on the dash read about 13 volts. The battery read about 14 at idle. When I revved the engine the voltage gauge on the dash dropped to about 12.5 but the battery jumped from 14 to 14.08 or so. So, something is not accurate here, my guess is the dash gauge but that is just a guess. I did not take any readings under the dash yet. Again with the engine running at idle, with the positive lead from the multimeter attached to the red wire connection at the back of the alternator and the negative lead to the main ground on the engine block the readings constantly fluctuated between 4.44 volts up to 5.64 volts. I have no idea if this is good or bad. Here are a few photos of the alternator for reference. I also failed to mention in my last post that there is also a light blue wire connected to the back of the alternator as well. It's a larger gauge and appears it may be the same wire that runs to the breaker. Just FYI.    Hopefully this is helpful in determining whether we have an electrical issue or not. I did however learn how to test ohms on a multimeter, assuming I even did it correctly
. Any thoughts? Thanks again for the help. |
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MrMcD
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Posted: November-16-2023 at 12:04pm |
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David, I use the center dash Ice Chest/ storage box for general storage. I plugged 2 USB ports inside this box on the upper right hand side looking in from the opening. They are out of the way and allow charging phones or iPads while all cables and the device are inside the storage box.
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63 Skier
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Posted: November-16-2023 at 5:30am |
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I wondered about dash wiring, and specifically grounds, as well. John, at this point the boat is starting and running and idling well, it's just a worry about voltage possibly dropping over time while running, and/or the ability to re-start after running for a while? Mark, where did you put your usb ports, did you add a socket next to the cigarette lighter or just leave pigtails under the dash? I really should add ports to mine as well.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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MrMcD
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Posted: November-16-2023 at 2:55am |
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From your voltage readings it sounds like your alternator is putting out voltage perfectly and is getting that voltage to your battery. That tells you the battery positive and negative have good connections and cables to the engine and alternator. Starter gets full power and spins your engine normally. Sounds like your issue is the ground at the dash or positive feed wire to the dash. Maybe one of the dash components has a problem grounding internally? Maybe your Volt gauge is just bad? Check voltage with your Volt Meter at the volt gauge to verify. I can't say about your boat buy my 95 dash is a little odd in my way of thinking. They piggy back the grounds from gauge to gauge so if the one loses its ground every gauge after that in line loses its ground. Nautique used one small wire, maybe 16 gauge and all the gauges/accessories pull ground off that wire, It works fine most of the time, I just don't like the way they did it. Many have reported gauge issues due to the wiring method. I melted my cigarette lighter once using a Million candle power spot light for navigation. When I repaired that I added a much heavier back up ground and heavier hot wire to the lighter and tied it into the gauges so it no longer overheats when exposed to a heavy amp draw and the gauges all have a stronger back up ground. ( the spot light now works fine). Also added a couple USB charging plugs while in there, seems like everyone entering the boat has a phone that needs charged these days.
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KENO
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Posted: November-15-2023 at 8:10pm |
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The voltage drop on the dash gauge shouldn't be happening.
I'd check to see if the same drop is happening at the battery positive terminal when you rev it up above 2000 rpm. The negative terminal grounding the case to the block is kinda redundant since the case is grounded through it's mounting bolts and the bracket to the block. With the engine off hook up the meter and check for roughly zero ohms resistance between the ground terminal and a good clean ground point on the block. What kind of funny readings were you getting at the Red output terminal? Was it fluctuating up and down and not a steady reading? I looked for a picture in this thread where the alternator might have photobombed it's way into the picture, but didn't see one. Do you know what brand it is or maybe you can post a picture Kinda hard to get a picture of the back, but that would be real helpful.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: November-15-2023 at 1:56pm |
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My apologies for the delay in getting the blanks filled in, most of the blanks anyway
, regarding the electrical readings. The battery was charged overnight and read 12.79 volts with the boat off. The boat started quite easily and easy re-started as well. The throttle response was also excellent, so hopefully those issues are behind me/us. With the boat idling... the battery read 13.61 volts. The power supply line to the distributor read 12.5 volts. The voltage gauge on the dash read 12 volts and slowly climbed to 13 volts while idling. With the engine revved to about 2000 rpm, the battery showed 14.04 volts. I was unable to get a reading at the back of the alternator. There are three wires. Red, green and black coming off the back of the alternator. The black wire connection was located on the back side in a tight spot, and with the belts running, I decided to pass on trying to get voltmeter on that negative post wire. I did attach the to the red post wire connection and tried to ground onto something else with the negative lead but it was giving me some strange numbers, and electrical not being my best subject, I thought I would check with you guys with what we have so far. Open to any advice on getting a reading on the alternator if still needed. That negative wire on the alternator is in a pretty tight spot. I did notice that the voltage gauge on the dash would go from about 12.5 on the dash at idle down to 12 or so when I revved the engine. No a huge drop but it definitely a repeated drop when revved. I am not sure if that is normal. I am hoping it is a symptom of a drop of voltage at a higher rpm possible associated with larger problem of trying to get higher rpms on the water, but that is likely wishful thinking on my part. I am confused how I am getting different readings at home on the trailer than the last trip to the lake. Although, with this boat I guess nothing surprises me anymore. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for all the help. |
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63 Skier
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Posted: October-18-2023 at 10:47am |
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But was the 12.7 at home engine off on the dash gauge, or with a meter? I was assuming you were looking at the same gauge that read 11 volts while running. If you saw the 12.7 with a meter then I tend to agree with Ken (always a good strategy anyway  ) but if on the gauge I'd still suspect the charging system.John, when the guy admiring your boat said "no" in answer to your gf, the only thing better would have been if he said "no, mine had a bunch of running problems I had trouble fixing so I dumped it".
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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KENO
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Posted: October-18-2023 at 8:02am |
12.7 at the battery, engine off and back at home tells me that your alternator is working, but do those checks mentioned earlier anyways. Something else tells me that DUI is blowing smoke up a certain part of your anatomy
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: October-17-2023 at 7:36pm |
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I don't recall checking the voltage meter at start up. I haven't really paid much attention to it since no alarms etc. Not to mention everything else that I have been focused on with this boat.
So I cant say if it has ever registered in the 13-14 range, I know it was working but just not the exact range. Definelty something I need to keep an eye on in the future. The battery did read 12.7 volts with the boat off when I returned home. I will start checking the different voltage readings and see what we get. Thanks.
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63 Skier
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Posted: October-17-2023 at 12:08pm |
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You mentioned you saw a reading of 11 on the way back while running. Did you happen to notice the voltage reading when you first started up when launched? Was it ever reading around 14, or at least 13 plus? I agree with Ken the gauge could be reading incorrectly, but if you were seeing the 14 plus you'd expect and then later it was down to 11 that would be a pretty strong indication the alternator isn't charging. Unless it's a wiring issue.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: October-17-2023 at 10:05am |
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Thank you KENO. Some additional homework definitely sounds like the wisest path forward. I will hold off on purchasing a new alternator until we know more. I will fill in the blanks and see what we get. It may take me a week or so to get to it but I will get it done. Thanks again for all the help.
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KENO
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Posted: October-16-2023 at 7:23pm |
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I think that before you get too excited, you should check the voltage at the alternator output and at the battery with the engine running at a couple thousand RPM and see what you have for readings. Check voltage right at the distributor also
You can do this on the hose Fill in the blanks Alternator output volts ------------- Battery volts-------------- Distributor supply volts............. The dash gauge has a good chance of being inaccurate 12.7 at the battery when you got home sounds pretty good if the engine was off when you checked it at home. If you want to get a new alternator, punch that PCM number into Google and find the same thing for about half of the Discount? Inboard Marine price and spend the other half on something for the GF. .....or ask here for a link to one of these outfits.Either way, there'll be some wiring changes. They're just selling you an aftermarket version of the original Motorola/Mando from the 80's, 90's at a not exactly discount price unlike some places that actually give you a good deal.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: October-16-2023 at 11:33am |
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Well, I have some good news, some not so good news and have discovered a possible solution after a test run at the lake.
The good news is that it started up right away and after only a few small adjustments it was idling great. I know I reported last time that it idled out smoothly, but there was a significantly improved difference and it was even smoother this time. Changing those gaskets made a big difference. The not so good news is that when I throttled up the same problem showed up and it would not go over 2300 RPM range. It even felt like I may have lost a few RPM from the last time. So we decided to enjoy the day at the lake under 2300 RPM. After a number of easy re-starts, on the final start it turned over a bit slow but started and I heard a quick faint buzz of the alarm. I checked the gauges and the volt gauge was reading 11. So I assumed that was going to be that last time the boat was going to start and we headed back to the dock. It maintained a reading of 11 on the way back. I checked the battery when I returned home and it was reading 12.7 just FYI. So here is my thought on a possible solution. I don't recall really keeping an eye on the volt gauge during this process. So it is possible that the alternator has been failing all along. I have always given the battery a full charge before heading out. In giving it some thought, I recalled in the DUI distributor instructions some language about voltage. So I did some research and found in some DUI instructions that "**NOTE: These distributors require alternator voltage of approximately 14.5 volts for maximum RPM operation." So I reached out to DUI this am and they confirmed that is the case. Without the higher voltage the engine would experience backfire or "flatten out" at higher RPMs. I explained my symptoms and they thought that may explain my issues as well. Any thoughts? So time to repair/replace the alternator. Might as well...seems like we have repaired/replaced everything else. Can these alternators be rebuilt for these Commander packages? If so, any recommendations on who? I found that SKIDIM sells one #RA097006 that can be adapted with one inch spacers for the Commanders. Any thoughts either way?On a funny side note. After we had trailered the boat out and were squaring things away. A gentleman came over and was admiring the boat and saying how he really enjoyed these boats and that he had one just like it. The GF stated "Was this one yours?" to which he said "No". I was like... good answer my friend. |
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Gary S
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Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Posted: October-14-2023 at 1:46pm |
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I think your getting used to looking at the newer engines and trans. I believe the older setups were all at 12 degrees across all makes but not positive. Here is an old picture of my HM they did use a wedge
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MrMcD
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Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3604 |
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Posted: October-14-2023 at 12:52pm |
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The Commander engine in the photo a couple posts back seems to be at more angle than most? Maybe I am just used to looking at the newer mountings with the 1.23 tranny that allows the engine to be mounted more level.
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AZ86SKIThe battery did read 12.7 volts with the boat off when I returned home. I will start checking the different voltage readings and see what we get. Thanks.[/QUOTE wrote: