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Acceleration issues.

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AZ86SKI View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2023 at 10:37am
I did check the float levels when I re-installed the carb and they are both set to the halfway point in the sight windows.

Since I didn't hear any objections to the air/fuel mixture settings, I'm going to run it to WOT on the lake and come what may. Big smile The plan is a lake test tomorrow and hopefully with good news to report. Thanks again for all the help. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-14-2023 at 8:18am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Edit:  by removing the Wedge you might throw off your float adjustments in the carb, the wedge is there to help keep the carburetor more level so it works better on the water.

Ford, Holley, PCM, Correct Craft didn't see any need for an angled spacer when his boat was built and there's still no need for it Wink

Plenty of people have bolted on a new Quick Fuel or Holley without needing an angled spacer whether their engine was angled about 15 ish degrees or pretty level


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-13-2023 at 8:22pm
In the old days we always hooked up a vacuum gauge and adjusted the idle mix screws for max vacuum so I think you did great.   One warning, boats like to be a little richer at idle which helps when you drop it in gear, if the idle is lean it will stall as it goes into gear on the water.  The prop puts a pretty good load on the engine.   I mention this because you might find you need to play with it on the water in gear to get it where you want it.
If it works fine as you already adjusted it relax and enjoy as is.  If it is stalling tweak it a little.

Edit:  by removing the Wedge you might throw off your float adjustments in the carb, the wedge is there to help keep the carburetor more level so it works better on the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-13-2023 at 2:47pm
I got the original spacer put back in with two new gaskets that KENO recommended. I deleted the additional wedge spacer on top. So just the carb and the original spacer now. When KENO stated that two spacers isn't terrible, I'm pretty sure he also meant it wasn't great either.Big smile

I hooked it up to the hose and fired it up. It definitely sounded different. It sounded like it was loping/stumbling a bit. So something changed with the new gaskets. I hooked up the vacuum gauge to the PCV line to the back of the carb and what used to be in the steady-ish 15 range was now bouncing around down to 11. 

Since the last person to mess with the air/fuel mixture screws was the one who provided the "jumped a tooth theory" I decided to return them both to 1 and 1/2 turns out. I apologize in advance KENO. I know this in not something a novice should be attempting. However, in keeping the vacuum gauge attached and working back and forth equally I was able to get a steady 15 and almost 16 on the gauge. This is with both turned out 3/4 of a turn. The best it has ever been. It idles much better and throttle response is great.

I also re-checked timing and it is still steady at 10 BTDC.

So here is my question. Is 3/4 of a turn out on both too lean to run or am I ok if that is where it idles best in neutral? I just want to make sure I am am still within the range of not causing anymore damage anywhere. 


Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-11-2023 at 6:08pm
Just a few quick photos of the spacer after the machine shop. Quite a difference and well worth the 60 bucks in my opinion.

.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-11-2023 at 4:43pm
The new gaskets arrived and I decided to tackle this latest project with the carb spacer and the original gasket. The bottom spacer came off relatively easily and mostly in one piece, which I was pretty surprised. There was some fuel moisture under the bottom spacer on top of the manifold. I can't imagine that is a good thing. I cleaned the spacer the best I could but noticed a small rock to it when I laid it on a flat surface. Even though the rock was very slight and it had what appeared to maybe be some rust, I decided to drop it off at a machine shop and let them do their thing to make it right. They just called and it's good to go. Here are a few photos for reference. This is something that absolutely needed to be addressed and I am hoping this will solve the remaining issue. Thanks again for all the help.

Bottom of spacer with original gasket attached.


Manifold. On the bottom of the photo is where it was a little wet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-04-2023 at 11:49am
Well...that is something that definitely needs to be addressed. Especially since it is a 37 year old gasket with original paint. Great catch! What I documented regarding the stud threads versus what I recall definitely support that as well. I have spent so much time starring at this motor that I am beginning to second guess myself at this point. Whether it is ultimately the solution or not it needs to be addressed and gaskets are way cheaper than new carburetors and distributors. Big smile Although this boat absolutely needed those as well. Thank you for the link as well. Very similar issues and hoping for similar results.

I will get those ordered today and they are all getting replaced. I will also try to remember to take a few photos of the old ones for reference when replacing. Thanks again, I really appreciate it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-04-2023 at 11:20am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

I'd say you have a spacer o top of a spacer there.


Agree, as it looks as though the PCV nipple is below the wedge, and on a spacer as was usual on Commanders of the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-04-2023 at 7:39am
I'd say you have a spacer o top of a spacer there.

This quote from the post on the QF installation kinda backs that up also, with the mention of 3 1/2 inch studs at the rear of the carburetor You'd only need 3 1/2 inch studs with 2 spacers.
Originally posted by AZ86SKI AZ86SKI wrote:


I did want to share a few things in getting it installed that may help others in the future who decide to go the QF route. If you are using the Holley 12 degree wedge under your QF, the 3.50" carburetor studs in the rear worked perfect for me. The mechanic had used bolts (not sure why) in the rear with the 4160 which will not work with the QF as there is not enough clearance to insert a bolt on one side.


Nothing terrible about using 2 spacers, but the picture sure looks like original paint not only on the original spacer but also the gasket edges..............like the gasket is original and never been off/replaced. 

That gasket between the spacer and the manifold can cause plenty of issues if it's bad and it won't show up as an external easy to find vacuum leak either

I'd get 2 of the PCM RM0054B gaskets and remove the spacer and replace the gaskets above and below the spacer.

I've had those spacers come off real hard at times and real easy at others, but you should get it off  and replace the gasket.

It may or may not cure your issue, but nothing else has either Wink

Here's a link to a recent thread with pretty similar issues that were fixed by replacing the old gasket under the spacer


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-04-2023 at 2:31am
Glad it works well enough to at least go boating again.   What MPH are you seeing, if the speedometers are working.  If not GPS on your phone may get you a close measurement.   30 MPH usually is very close to 3,000 RPMs unless someone changed your prop for work in a short ski course.

FYI:  when my wife first drove the 95 Nautique we have now we were buzzing down the lake fully loaded with camping gear.   I asked her if she was in a hurry, she looked at me like I was asking a stupid question.   I said you are spinning 4,200 RPM, she was shocked and backed it down a little.  Water was smooth, boat ran smooth, she was hauling at high RPM and had no idea.  Gave me a good laugh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2023 at 8:57pm
Sorry, I forgot to address a couple other questions as well. They did replace the Ignition Module when I sent it back to DUI since that was one of our primary concerns then as well. Regarding the tach gauge, it appears to be close at lower rpms and having prior boats it really doesn't feel like we are getting into the high 4000's or to 5000 but that is just based on my experience and nothing technical or tested. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2023 at 8:50pm
That was the plan KENO, I apologize, especially after such a long delay in getting it back on the water for a test. I did however catch a glimpse of a couple of grins from her after a number of restarts without issue. Not to mention a smooth return to the dock. We are close.Big smile

Now to my homework. I will attach a close up photo of what is on there now. I replaced both the gasket on top of the wedge plate and the one under the wedge plate. I can't recall if I got the PCM gaskets or used what came with the new QF carb. I know we discussed it but I just can't recall. I do know that the gasket between the carb and the ge plate is a thick gasket. The one under the wedge plate is not as thick for sure. Under the wedge gasket may be another riser but I can't quite tell. It looks like it has more of a casting mark around it then it actually separates. I never removed it and if I recall correctly it was threaded where I mounted my new studs for the new QF. Maybe the photo will help. I know I spent a significant amount of time with carb cleaner and even some propane looking for a vacuum leak in those areas with no luck, but it doesn't mean I didn't miss one.  Thanks again for the help and let me know what you think. The photo may come out sideways...we will see...but it should give you a better look. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2023 at 7:49am
You're supposed to show up after all this time and say something like "the boat runs great, the GF is all smiles" but no, you have this news instead  Wink

Since you've checked and/or replaced most everything including the carburetor and distributor and still have the same problem, going back to post #1 you mention a Holley wedge adapter. 

Is that on top of the stock 1 inch adapter or did it replace the stock adapter?

I can't quite tell from the picture you had posted back then.


You also mentioned not using the wider PCM gaskets, did you ever go to the wider gaskets along the way?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2023 at 3:36pm
Any chance your tach is not accurate?   I had one go out and it read pretty close to 1/2 actual RPM till it was changed out.   Maybe take a GPS with you on the next drive and see how fast it is actually going at 2700 RPM.  Most of these boats would be really close to 27 mph at 2700 RPM.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2023 at 3:16pm
Good adjustment on the choke, if I understand the change you made.  Truth is you can start an engine without a choke, use the accelerator pumps by pumping the throttle to keep it going in the first 15-20 seconds, so if anything I think you were experiencing too much choke for too long.  Not sure of that, just guessing.  But also a minor problem since it smooths out and runs fine after.

On the 2700 rpm wall that you hit.  If you hadn't had the distributor worked on and checked out I'd be suggesting that you need to check total timing, sorry can't remember if you already did so.  Did you ever try a new ignition module?  If fuel related I'd expect it to bog and surge when you hit the wall, the fact that it runs smoothly tends to make me think fuel is OK.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2023 at 2:33pm
Thank you MrMcD. I went back out after posting and gave it a cold start again. The noise sounds like it is coming from the strainer seal. It's tight but the seal likely needs to be replaced. I will get that done. As soon as the strainer primed the noise went away.

I also adjusted choke to open sooner for the cold start. Gave it one pump of the throttle and it fired up and idled much better after start up. I will consider that problem solved for now.

So for now just the failure to get over 2700 rpms remains...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2023 at 2:11pm
Congratulations on your progress.   Sounds like the strainer seal is leaking and sucking air.   Does your temperature vary while driving and idling?   Maybe start it next time with the engine cover up and find out exactly where your noise is coming from.  It might quiet down once water fills the strainer after start up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2023 at 1:20pm
I apologize for the long delay in finally reporting back. I was finally able to get a test run under load accomplished after all of the last round of repairs. I thank you all again for all your help along the way with this boat. I have some good news to report with only one major lingering issue remaining.

Just as a quick re-cap since it has been awhile. Last time at the lake we heard a pop/clank under load and it died. Found the distributor gear had sheared off. Got that repaired and went a down the "timing chain jumped a tooth" trail briefly from the last mechanic before you all quickly and correctly stopped me from chasing that rabbit. Sent the distributor back to DUI for a full check up. They replaced a few items and tested it and said it was good to go. Got it re-installed and was finally having success again on the trailer. I had been running it about monthly on the trailer just to make sure all was good and no real issues. Of course the day before heading to the lake it decides not to start. A quick check and no fuel from the accelerator pump nozzle (I think that's what its called), gave it a quick clean and it was working fine again. The cold start is tough for this boat so far. It stumbles through with throttle until warmed up then idles fine with great throttle response.

So...at the lake yesterday, cold start was a bit rough but stumbled through for a few minutes then smoothed right out. Idled great. Smooth into gear and out past the no wake zone. Throttled up smooth and got up to about 2700 rpm and like before it would hold about 2700 rpm. As before, when I tried to give it more throttle beyond that it doesn't speed up and it doesn't slow down. It doesn't really spit or sputter and it doesn't lose RPMs. For me this was a great success knowing how many issues we have tackled with this boat and I successfully made it back to the dock in a respectable manner under my own power this time. Big smile

One item to update. Consistently at the cold start, there is a whining/sucking sound that lasts 15-20 seconds at the rear of the engine right where the in-line strainer is located. I always assumed (I know that's not a good thing to do) it was the strainer and or inlet water line connection air leak while priming. Then it goes away and no issues on re-starts. I know I checked for vacuum leaks all around the manifold at the rear of the engine so I need to confirm and fix this issue. Would a manifold leak act or sound this same way?

I plan to adjust the choke settings and see if I can achieve a better cold start. 

I am open to any suggestions on tackling this last hurdle of getting it over 2700 rpms and experiencing this boats full potential.

Thanks again for all the help. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-11-2022 at 6:36pm
Sounds like a plan Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-11-2022 at 10:33am
Hey KENO,

I haven't had it back out on the water yet. You are spot on about the warmer weather, not that it really gets that cold out my way. I will absolutely report how it runs when I do and hopefully with some good news. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-11-2022 at 8:01am
Originally posted by AZ86SKI AZ86SKI wrote:


Thanks everyone for hanging in there with me and helping me along the way. We are at least back to a boat that starts, idles and responds great off idle. I am not declaring victory yet but things are looking much better for sure.

Just kinda wondering................any victory declaration yet or does that wait till warmer weather? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2022 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by AZ86SKI AZ86SKI wrote:

a few degrees of but it can't be by much. Engine was at TDC with rotor pointing to #1.

Great news!

I think you may now realize that where the rotor points is not necessarily an indication of correct timing.

Use the marks on the dampener-that's what they're there for.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2022 at 7:29pm
Congrats, fingers crossed ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2022 at 6:46pm


Let's see a picture of her smile after the first water test. Wink

Clockwise on your engine advances the timing.  By the way, if you rotate the distributor 5 degrees, the crankshaft timing changes by 10 degrees Always a factor of 2 on the adjustment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2022 at 6:20pm
I finally have some good news to report!!!

After taking a break, I went out and tried starting again with no luck. I then adjusted the timing by rotating the distributor clockwise a bit (which I believe is advancing it if I'm correct) and it fired right up! I put the timing light on it and set it at 10* BTDC and it sounded great. I was able to give it throttle off idle and it responded great as well. I am a bit shocked and not sure I quite trust it yet, but only time will tell with more testing. 

Thanks everyone for hanging in there with me and helping me along the way. We are at least back to a boat that starts, idles and responds great off idle. I am not declaring victory yet but things are looking much better for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-10-2022 at 2:47pm
Hey all,

It has been a bit but I have a quick update. Not what I was hoping for but here is the latest.

I sent the distributor back to the manufacturer and they inspected it. They replaced the rotor that I had replaced with a stock rotor and a new cap and tested it with no issues. I advised that we thought the ignition module may have been going bad based on my prior post. They replaced the ignition module and wiring harness as well. They advised they gave it a lengthy test with no issues and sent it back. The people at DUI were great to deal with in my opinion.

I got it put back in and no start. Uhhhhhhh. I had marked all the wires and took photos of everything in removing it and put everything back exactly the same (so I think). The timing could be off a few degrees of but it can't be by much. Engine was at TDC with rotor pointing to #1. Triple checked firing order from #1. The distributor is fully seated. BAT and TACH connections are good. Pumped the throttle a few times and it is getting fuel. It would only stumble a few times (like a cough) but not really like it was really firing if that makes any sense. I decided give the starter and myself a break for a bit. I'm now confident the distributor is good so it is likely the mechanic (me) at this point. I will go back through the basics again this weekend and let you know what I do or don't find. A bit frustrating but I'm not giving up now.

Thanks again for all the help. I know I have mentioned the "look" from the GF a few times so this is what I'm talking about. No doubt there is another one of these looks right around the corner when I tell her I am back to it not starting...





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-03-2022 at 8:46pm
Well, I went back and double checked all the connections again. I also moved some of the wires side to side with the engine running looking for a possible short and no luck. The engine will not return to where it ran great for that short period. It remains with the rough low idle and dies off idle. So the ignition module is the likely suspect as KENO suggested. Thank you KENO for the links as well. 

Since I have had a number of issues associated with this distributor, and with it still being under warranty, I decided to contact the manufacturer and see if they have had any similar issues. I didn't want to start replacing more parts that would perhaps void the warranty. They advised that I am the only one they are aware of who has reported these issues, meaning the roll pin coming out and the gear coming off, the rotor damage and now possibly a bad ignition module. I want to make SURE that I convey how receptive they were to hearing what occurred and quickly offered on their own to have the distributor returned and inspected by one of their techs. They advised that they would repair/replace the distributor if needed and make it right. Outstanding customer service in my opinion.

As much as I want to get a new ignition module and put it in and hopefully hear it run great again, I can't pass up their offer to have it inspected by one of their techs and go from there. I hope you all agree. 

There were some earlier comments about using a hardened roll pin for the distributor gear so I asked them about it. They confirmed that they use hardened roll pins in the distributor gear. I just wanted to pass that information along to everyone. 

It may be a few weeks before I have any updates but I will let you know what they find. Thanks again everyone. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-28-2022 at 5:46pm
Looks like the Delphi DS10071 module has received good reviews and it's only $30. I may buy one as a spare. Thanks for posting that link.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2022 at 5:01pm
Well........I hate to tell you to spend some more money but if you have this mystery issue where it one time might start and idle good, run good and the next time it doesn't, the ignition module comes to mind.

Ignition modules fail however they feel like failing

You can get a real cheapie for "troubleshooting" purposes. (That's just code for buying a cheap module) or you can spend a fair amount  more.

Any 4 pin module for this style HEI distributor will work.

Here are some choices in the link 


If nothing else, you'll have a spare module Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AZ86SKI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-27-2022 at 12:25pm
After inspecting the three pins in the connector, the pin attached to the red wire was loose in the connector. The tab on the back of the pin was bent pointing up (not down as it should be) allowing the pin to slide in the connector. So when you would slide the connector together, the red wire would push back/out some. I removed the pin to the red wire from the connector, bent the tab back so it would catch correctly in the connector and re-connected everything. 

Thinking the problem was now fixed, I started the boat and.......NOPE. It is now back to the it starts, idles poorly and dies off idle. Uhhhhhh.....

Since these connections are the only thing I have touched since in ran amazing last night, the gremlin must be in this area somewhere. I double checked all the connections again and no luck. I'll spend some more time on it later and keep you all posted. Thanks again.  
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