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AZ86SKI 
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Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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 Posted: July-29-2022 at 1:23pm |
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Time to do some online shopping and spend some money on a new QF! Thanks for the advice on possible discounts.
Thank you as well KENO for pointing me in the right direction regarding the fuel line and providing the part number. A new carburetor without a fuel line that fits wouldn't do me much good. Ha. I will get that Sierra fuel line ordered as well. I also thought I read an earlier post about a spacer that was available for the QF conversion. If I find it I will post that part number again here as well. Hopefully I wont need it if my arrestor is small enough, but inevitably I'm sure I will. Thanks again for all the guidance in getting this far!  I will get the orders in this weekend and update soon with the new QF installed. For those of you with smooth running boats, enjoy the weekend! |
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KENO
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Posted: July-29-2022 at 7:42am |
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Along with a QF carburetor you'll be needing a new fuel line due to the bowl inlet configuration.
You could use rubber or metal. Rubber should be USCG approved line You can get a Sierra 18-8115 USCG rubber line that'll fit from a variety of places or make your own with USCG A-15 or A-10 approved hose and the right barbed fittings or bend your own metal line. Your present line looks like somebody took a length of pre flared brake line and bent it to fit maybe. it has a little extra length to it. Nothing wrong with what's there but it probably won't reach the bowl mounting location on the QF if you start bending it to fit. And you may need a new flame arrestor or some dainty hammer work to let the one you have clear the external float adjusters that stick up to far to allow your arrestor to seat properly on the carburetor. The dainty hammer work would be indenting the bottom enough to clear the adjusters  .............or finding a short spacer to go between the carburetor and the arrestor.Yours looks like it might be small enough in diameter that it'll fit without interference.
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NCH20SKIER
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Posted: July-29-2022 at 6:49am |
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If you are going the new carb route check around. Sometimes places like Jegs will offer $75 -$100 off for orders over $500 if you open an account. Summit may also offer this type of deal but unlikely.
I have had 2 quick fuels (2 different boats) and they have be hassle free. |
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'05 206 Limited
'88 BFN |
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-28-2022 at 2:08pm |
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The exhaust hoses showed zero failure all the way through on both sides, I know it's a little difficult to see in the photos, but there were no signs of failure at all. I was expecting to see some restriction as KENO initially suggested based on the symptoms and the boats history. It was definitely something that needed to be checked and confirmed one way or the other before moving forward. Now that it is done, I'm glad I did it to confirm.
I can't think of anyone locally who would have a spare and trustworthy 4160 carburetor, and after a couple shop rebuilds now, I'm thinking a new replacement is my best long term solution at this point. It will at least give me a spare that perhaps I can become more familiar with the internal workings at some point and have my own trustworthy replacement. It should also be noted that in my previous post regarding a possible carburetor replacement that it is NOT "Quality Fuel Technologies", it is "Quick Fuel Technology." That was my error and I just wanted to clarify for anyone lacking carburetor knowledge like myself who made read this in the future. Any other suggestions before I pull the trigger on the QFT M-600 would be greatly appreciated, to include support for the swap if you believe this is correct path as well. Thanks |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-27-2022 at 5:25pm |
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If the hoses melt from heat it is within about 15” of the exhaust manifold where the heat is the most. Do you have any friends with an extra carb you can test with just to rule it out or confirm? It is quick to swap carbs for a test.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-27-2022 at 3:41pm |
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I should also mention that if we have narrowed down the likely issue to the carburetor, I would be more inclined to replace the 36 year old carburetor than attempt anymore shop rebuilds at least for now. I have read a number of threads (thank you Johnny Quest and others) regarding the Quality Fuel Technologies (QFT) M-600 replacement for my Holley 4160. It seemed to have some great reviews as well as additional features/adjustments options that my 4160 does not have. Although I wish they were the same price when the earlier threads were posted.
 Just wanted to mention since a deep dive into the current carburetor by myself would likely cause more issues than I already have.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-27-2022 at 1:13pm |
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My apologies for the short delay in my update. The heat here in Phoenix the last week or so diminished my willingness to wrestle with exhaust hoses. However, I have completed the latest assignment of inspecting the exhaust for any possible restrictions and neither were restricted on either side. Both exhaust manifolds looked clear. Both exhaust hoses were clear as well, other than a bit of water standing in the bottom of the hose which is hard to see in the photo. I found placing a bright light at the exhaust flap and inspecting the hose from the inlet side provided the best visual inspection opportunity. I provided a photo from the inlet side of the exhaust hose for reference and both exhaust hoses appeared the same.
My novice experience leads me to suspect that is time to return to the carburetor again after two previous shop rebuilds. The good news is we have checked a lot off the list (at least in my opinion) and I have learned a ton. We have to be getting close to a solution. Any other suggestions, advice or homework assignments? Thanks again for all the help, I really appreciate it.  |
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KENO
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Posted: July-18-2022 at 10:51pm |
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I just screwed up ,I should have said 86
2 baffles per muffler is normal and what you have in the picture looks normal for the rear baffle. Good luck with the hoses.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-18-2022 at 10:10pm |
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After closer inspection, it does look like it has mufflers (still learning what I am looking at here). The mufflers also appear to have possibly fiberglass baffles (looks like 2 per side) that then attach to the exhaust tube that leads to the manifold exhaust. I will need to remove the engine cover and some of the floor panels to access everything for a closer look. I did take a photo of the exhaust from the exhaust flap for clarity and reference. Its not the greatest photo, but it's the best I could get to explain what I am looking at. Both exhaust ports looked identical with no blockage at least at these points.
 You can see the one baffle and there is another one further in that is not visible in the photo. Next step is to remove the engine cover and some of the floor panels for access. Then start working on removing the exhaust hoses from the manifolds for inspection from the other end. I am hoping to get it done this week and I will update as soon I as I can confirm something one way or the other on a possible blockage. Hey KENO, you mentioned a 1978 in your last post which I think is what MrMcD said he had. I just wanted to clarify that mine is a 1986 so there is no confusion moving forward for everybody since this post is getting a little lengthy. You may have been addressing MrMcD and I am confused, but I just wanted to clarify. Also, thank you for the link regarding collapsible exhaust hoses, it was very educational. |
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KENO
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 8:52pm |
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So do you have mufflers on that thing or hose all the way back to the transom fittings or some other arrangement. A 78 had mufflers originally.
I'd be checking everything after the manifold outlets to be clear and unrestricted especially the parts where there' are sharp bends in the rubber that you haven't looked at yet. If you have mufflers you'll see some restriction baffles but it sounds like maybe they were removed at some time. Here's an old thread about "collapsible hose" in the link |
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 7:05pm |
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The collapsible exhaust tube explanation makes a lot of sense, especially with the known issues of the two failed impellers and one failed exhaust tube. Pretty ingenious safety feature for an exhaust hose and great information to know and share. I told myself I wasn't going to work on the boat today but I couldn't resist inspecting the exhaust tubes from the exhaust flap forward. Both exhaust tubes are clear all the way up to the point where they bend up to connect to the manifolds. After the bend to the connection at the manifold is not visible. Also, when the impeller came apart on me and I spent the time to try and find all the pieces I was concerned that perhaps some of it made it to the manifolds. After reconnecting everything, I recall using an infrared temp gauge to check both manifolds to see if either one was running hotter than the other. Both were running at equal temps +/- a few degrees, so I assumed they were good. However, the flip side is they could be equally clogged. I'm not looking forward to removing the exhaust tubes and inspecting the manifolds but that will be next unless this information is helpful enough.
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 4:52pm |
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If you have the collapsible exhaust tubes they are designed to close off the exhaust when the engine is run with no water to cool them. An inner liner collapses, the outer can look just fine. At some point the boat manufacturers quit using that type hose but I don’t remember what year that was. I have been in two boats when the impeller failed and the boat got hot, in both cases the engine was running great and then suddenly started to feel like it was running on 4 cylinders, really rough and no power. They did not run smooth. In both boats I thought for sure it got hot enough to blow the head gaskets but both of those ran perfectly once the impeller was fixed and the exhaust tubes replaced. Those safety exhaust tubes were designed to let you know you have a problem before the exhaust hose burns through and allows water to enter your boat.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 12:53pm |
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Keno,
Your constipation hypothesis carries a lot of weight. All kidding aside, it does make a lot of sense with the known history of this boat. I know the previous owner did replace one of the exhaust tubes from the manifold back to the transom due to failure. I would suspect an overheating issue at some point as you described. I know the previous owner also experienced an impeller that came apart as well and was replaced. After I took on the boat years later and got it running, I took it out for a test on the water and made it about 50 yards out from the no wake zone and the engine began to run hot quickly and I shut it down. Which takes us back to me and my GF pushing it back to the dock. Still haven't lived that one down. In any event, it was another impeller that came apart. I then proceeded to remove all of the impeller pieces I could find from the inlet on the raw water pump (where a lot were smashed into), the thermostat housing and the hoses from the thermostat housing to the exhaust manifolds. This is where I stopped. I recall looking into the manifolds from the inlet side (which was pretty small) and really couldn't see much. So I am assuming I need to remove the exhaust tubes from the ends of the manifolds and check the exhaust tubes for any obstructions and see what I find inside the manifolds from the exhaust end? I can only image how fun removing the exhaust tubes from the manifolds will be, but I will be careful with the manifolds. This may take a bit for me to get done but I will update as I move along. If this is the solution, I might have a new name for this boat. |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 12:13pm |
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That would be true if his gas flow shut off, if it is just dribbling in due to a very low float setting or a plugged float valve it works like a lousy rev limiter. Engine revs till it runs out of fuel and then slows to match the fuel flow. Does not just die dead.
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KENO
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 6:37am |
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The secondaries won't open till higher speeds/airflow and he's having acceleration problems just trying to get to those speeds.
I think lots of extra air through the secondaries and no extra gas would make for a real lean engine that wouldn't want to maintain speed and probably just die
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-17-2022 at 1:14am |
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Constipation! Well good ideas come from common everyday work! Plugged exhaust can certainly do that. I looked it up once but it was several years back. The exhaust hoses with the collapsable wall were used up until somewhere around 1990? The law changed and it allowed non collapsing hoses after that. Not sure exactly when the change went into effect.
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RealDeez
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 9:38pm |
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Well that's undoubtedly a much better line of inquiry than mine since I have nothing like Keno level knowledge or experience but I'll ask my question anyway... maybe more for my own potential future knowledge than anything else...
I was thinking about the aaaaaah sound mentioned, then I thought about how it sounds like kind of a wuuaaaahh sound when the secondaries open up on my boat... at least I think that's what the noise is from. So I wondered if the aaaaah sound might be the sound of secondaries opening but no fuel in the secondary bowl...? Sorry in advance if I've done nothing more than expose my own ignorance here but this is how I learn... |
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Lake James, IN
93 Sport Nautique |
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KENO
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 8:54pm |
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So John
There I was sittin' on the can after supper, thinking about your issue and suddenly it hit me...............constipation. No not me, but maybe your boat is constipated . How could that be you might wonder If you have a restricted exhaust, it'll limit how much air the engine can draw in and get rid of out the exhaust which will limit how much power it can make, which will limit your top speed and acceleration because the prop is too much for the reduced power output and you get that sound you described.. Easy for me to say from 2500 or so miles away, but I think you should at least check your exhaust hoses and mufflers for restriction. Hoses can collapse internally from excess heat like an overheat in the boats past or just plain get old and start coming apart. The mufflers have some built in restriction from baffles, but a broken baffle lodged in the wrong spot can have a big effect on backpressure and power. It's not the easiest thing to do wrestling with those wire reinforced hoses and having to be kinda delicate where the hose clamps to the fiberglass muffler so you don't break the muffler but since you're kinda at a loss for what to do it's probably worth a look at least. It kinda like having a restricted catalytic converter or muffler in your car. |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 3:55pm |
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Progress, you have good flow and perfect pressure. Done with that. On the water run it till the engine starts to strain and refuse to go faster. Quickly shut off the key and coast to a stop. Key off, lift the engine cover remove the spark arrestor and manually open the throttle while staring down the carb. You should see a squirt of fuel in each front barrel. If it squirts on the first try you might pump it a couple more times to see if the accelerator pump has access to fuel. If it is dry or goes dry after 1-3 squirts the bowl is empty telling you the engine used more gas that the inlet supplied. Someone will jump in and correct if my thinking is off. I think this test will tell you if fuel supply at the carb is your issue. There is still a filter where the line attaches to the carb and then the float adjustment in the bowl and the needle and seat that opens and closes that flow of fuel to the bowl. Obviously something is not working but I am guessing and throwing out ideas.
Edit, the bowl might refill just in the time it takes from when you turn off the key till the engine actually stops but I am trying to find a way to check without tearing apart your carb. Assuming your carb does not have external float adjustments or the side sight window?
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 3:06pm |
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Ok, I got the fuel pressure and fuel flow tested before the peak of the heat today, so this is what I found.
The fuel flow at idle appears to be putting out a good amount of fuel, especially for being at idle (but that is my novice opinion). I would say it would be in line with the 1/4 gallon at a 30 second run as suggested. I did not actually time it out to 30 seconds as I was doing this project by myself and dealing with fuel I was trying error on the side of caution with everything going on. However, it was not a completely steady flow at idle. I attached a rubber fuel line to the end of the fuel line that attaches to the carburetor and then ran that line into a gas can. When I observed the fuel flowing into the can it was pulsing a bit as if in sync with the pump. There were no breaks in the fuel delivery but you could definitely feel the fuel pump working in the rubber fuel line. I am not sure if this is to be expected (seems logical though) since I have never tested fuel flow before. The fuel pressure was at 6 and I tested this a couple of times. I also checked the fuel lines from the carburetor all the way back to the tank for any binds or collapses and everything looked good. In dealing with this fuel line again after awhile (one of the first things I tackled over a year ago), I now recall when I cleaned the pickup tube and anti-siphon valve (not knowing what it was called then), the valve did not appear to have a ball or any other part in it, if I recall correctly. I wasn't sure at the time if it was just how the fitting was made or not so I just cleaned it and moved on. Now that I am a bit wiser (and I do mean a bit) that issue needs to re-addressed. In reading today, its a huge safety issue as well so I will put it on top of my list to find a new one. Although, I know the line/valve was cleaned and not obstructed. Below is a photo of what I am referring to when I say anti-siphon valve for clarity (assuming I'm correct). Would the unobstructed anti-siphon valve cause any of the symptoms? Perhaps a reason for needing some throttle to start hot and cold? Any thoughts on the fuel flow, fuel pressure or are we headed to the carburetor? Anymore homework assignments? Thanks for everyone guidance, I really do appreciate it!  |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 2:17pm |
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Tracing problems can sometimes be a real test.
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63 Skier
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 12:18pm |
Certainly seems like a fuel problem to me, since total advance has been confirmed. One other item to mention - when I first got my '98 it ran well but would bog when running over 3,500 or so rpm. It was pretty much ok for skiing but any more throttle and it would bog and surge. Had a hard time figuring it out, a mechanic determined it was a collapsing fuel line, replaced the fuel hose to the tank, problem was solved. Pretty much same symptoms as a partially failed anti-siphon valve but turned out it was the hose, not the valve.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 11:57am |
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Any chance the floats are just adjusted to low and it is running out of fuel?
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-16-2022 at 11:45am |
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Hey KENO,
I haven't tested the fuel flow or fuel pressure yet but I wanted to respond your post. I did replace the the filter in the bottom of the fuel pump awhile back. The ruptured diaphragm overflow tube (a new part name for me) does connect to the back/top of the fuel pump. Homework Question: The boat seems like it will run all day up to 2500-2700 RPM with no issues (once past the stall issue from idle discussed). When I try to give it more throttle beyond that (even to WOT) it just makes a sound like when you are at the doctors office and they tell you to say "Ahhhhhhh." I know that is likely the least technical way to describe it, but that's what it sounds like to my untrained ear. It doesn't speed up and it doesn't slow down. It doesn't really spit or sputter and it doesn't lose RPMs. Pull the throttle back to 2500-2700, the "Ahhhhhh" goes away and the boat drives on. I will test the fuel flow and fuel pressure and post it soon. It's going to be 114 degrees here today, but I am motivating myself to get it done this weekend. I have attached a photo of the other side of the engine for reference. Thanks!  |
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KENO
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 9:28pm |
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That's a Carter fuel pump and that little canister on the bottom held in place by the thumbscrew has a small filter inside of it. Maybe you already put a new filter in there..............maybe not.
Your ruptured diaphragm overflow tube must come out the backside of the pump and is camera shy in the picture. In your first post you can see the tube hooked to the flame arrestor
It looks in your first photo like you have a rubber fuel line, It could be original and coast guard approved or replaced sometime over the years with who knows what. If you want to test fuel pressure, unhook the line from the carburetor and with a little extra line and a tee fitting you can have your gauge hooked up temporarily. For your next homework question, will this thing run along sounding good at 2700 RPM for minutes at a time or does it spit, sputter and lose RPMs like it running out of gas?. |
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 8:10pm |
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Excellent advice regarding both fuel pressure and fuel flow testing. I will take the necessary precautions and check both of those this weekend. I have definitely learned a ton working on this boat and fuel pressure and fuel flow is the next homework assignment. I will post the results once I have some. Thanks!
Here is a photo of the fuel pump that is on it now just for reference. Not sure why the photo appears sideways.  |
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MrMcD
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 6:49pm |
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Fuel pressure should be 4-6 PSI with a carburetor. A test that helps when looking for proper fuel flow out of the pump is to take the fuel line and divert it into a gallon or larger jug. Feed the carb with an alternate fuel source so you can start the engine and watch how much fuel actually pumps into your container. The fuel pump should put a 1/4 gallon into that jug in about 30 seconds run time. You should see a constant flow of fuel. Next would be to test for pressure and most vacuum gauges do have the ability to test for fuel pressure on carbureted engines. Under 10 PSI systems. Flow is important as much as 4-6 PSI of pressure.
There may be enough fuel in your carb bowl to run for almost a minute and do this test without hooking up an alternate fuel source. You just want to see a constant flow of fuel and it should increase in flow if you bump the RPM up a little. OBVIOUSLY extreme care needs to be taken or you can start a fire and burn up your boat. Having a fire extinguisher handy is better than a good idea.
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AZ86SKI
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 5:14pm |
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63 Skier,
I have gone through from the tank, pick up tube (that's what I called it), anti-siphon valve and everything was cleaned. I replaced the filter at the fuel pump, bought and installed a NOS fuel filter/water separator (orange cannister style). I have not checked the fuel pump pressure. I believe the vacuum gauge I purchased to check the vacuum at the carb also can be used to check fuel pressure. It does appear to me to be the original fuel pump, but that is only an assumption on my part. Any suggestions on the best way to check the fuel pressure since I have never done it? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
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63 Skier
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 4:38pm |
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And anti-siphon valve at the tank?
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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63 Skier
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Posted: July-15-2022 at 4:38pm |
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Your mechanic might have been saying you had 24 degrees of mechanical advance, not total. Just a guess. In your list of things done you mention new fuel filters and new fuel. Has the fuel pump pressure been looked at?
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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MrMcD wrote: