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Belts - Cogged or Not

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63 Skier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Belts - Cogged or Not
    Posted: July-05-2022 at 7:22pm
On my '98 GT-40 I've always used a set of belts from one of the Nautique parts suppliers.  I found this last time that the alternator belt was difficult to get on even with the alternator at the limit of it's travel.  I was able to get it on barely but tightened it too much, it shredded.  My mistake.  I had the old belt for a spare and put it on so we were able to stay on the water, nice to have spare parts and a few tools to not ruin time on the water.

I picked up a belt with same profile and about 3/4" longer so it would mount easier, it was a cogged belt from Napa, a 7400 which is 13/32" x 40 5/8" OC (10mm x 1031mm OC).  It cross references to a Gates that is just 6mm longer, basically the same belt.  Both are cogged.

I see no reason not to run a cogged belt, but then again the OEM replacements are solid.  Anyone have an opinion on this?  The slightly longer belt fit perfectly, easy to mount and tightened with plenty of clearance to the fuel filter housing.
'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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MrMcD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2022 at 8:37pm
Gates makes all of the Napa belts.  Cogged belts just flex easy over the small diameter pulley, like your alternator.  The load on your belts is low so the new belt should last for a very long time.   When I have my choice I run the 15/32 wide belt, it rides a little higher in the pulley so you need it a little longer to fit but it is stronger than the thinner belt and offers more grip.   Dayco, Gates or Goodyear offer these.  Stick with a quality brand and the premium part.
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63 Skier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2022 at 10:08pm
Thanks Mark, very helpful as always!  So if I go with 15/32, go another inch longer?  Or not quite that much?

I kind of think the load on the raw water pump belt is actually significant given it's constant.  I'm just making that judgement by the effort needed to turn it by hand, not sure if I'm right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2022 at 10:16pm
Either belt will work fine for you, the 15/32 just works a little bit better but you might never use the boat in a condition to feel that benefit.  They have measurement gauges that will compare length based on width, most parts stores have one on the shelf for use.  The reason I like the wider belt is they ride on the pully sides not to the bottom of the groove.  The sides provide friction for grip, if the belt migrates to the bottom of the pulley it is more prone to slip.  Slip when it comes to belts = noise and heat both are bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-05-2022 at 10:23pm
Well adding to the story, my battery is on the way out, alternator working harder than it should, I was getting chirping at every startup for the first 4-5 seconds.  New battery going in tomorrow, and I know exactly what you mean about riding lower in the groove so I'll grab a 15/32 and give it a try.

Humorous side note - I was at Autozone this evening.  I know what people think about Autozone but my local one has treated me well and the counter people are friendly and helpful, plus their rewards add up over time.  I asked for a belt to match the Napa one, she tried to cross reference but it didn't come up on their system.  So she brought me back to the "wall of belts" and said she was shorthanded and couldn't spend the time herself, but if I wanted to search the bins and use their belt measuring tool I was welcome to do so.  I spent about 23 seconds looking before realizing it would be a monumental task with the hundreds of belts they had there and I gave up. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 8:07am
Originally posted by 63 Skier 63 Skier wrote:

The slightly longer belt fit perfectly, easy to mount and tightened with plenty of clearance to the fuel filter housing.

Since your new NAPA 25-7400 isn't exactly cheap and it fits like mentioned above in the quote, why mess with what sounds like success? Wink

Unless you have alignment issues, it's gonna last a long time

Quick video in the link, even though volumes could be written about belts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 10:58am
I want to have a spare in the boat anyway so whichever I use, the other will be a spare.  It was $24.29 at a local Napa store.  Looking this morning I'm not as sure the 15/32" won't ride a bit too high, the 13/32" is flush, not riding too low.

In another thread when a guy asked about what he could get for belts to get him through the weekend, the suggestion was get an auto parts store belt and run it, order the Nautique specific set later and install but he'd be able to "get by" for the weekend.  I'm not so sure I'll buy any more of the Nautique belts, am wondering if a set of properly sized Gates cog belts are not a better option.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 11:50am
You may be overcooking your omelette...
Belt schmelt...I mean Nautique didn't manufacture their own belts, and belts have been in use (car or boat) for decades. Any quality, correctly-sized belt, properly installed,  should give you years of service. Check for wear and re-adjust periodically. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 12:44pm
Mourning Wood is correct.  Nautique would have contracted with either Gates, Goodyear or Dayco to make that belt and they would pay extra to have their part number painted on it.  No other difference.

One thing to know, if you look at the fan belt and the main cording is in the middle of the belt buy another type.  Quality belts all have the cording on the Top of the belt.   Running that cording at the top is the widest point so the belt is the strongest.   The cheap fan belts all have cording in the center of the belt because it cost less to produce them.  Even Dayco, Gates and Goodyear or Napa can sell you the cheap center cord belt also as the price line but quality belts will have top cording.
Sorry the picture is sideways, not sure why.   Note:   A:  shows the cording,  B: is where the belt should be virgin rubber for friction.  C: is where thin cording is usually woven into the rubber to help the belt slip quietly when under loads, like when your AC kicks on, the belt allows slip while the AC gets up to speed with the engine.   If the Cording is in the B section it is a junk belt.  They build them that way to cut price, it is a inferior design but they are out there and cheap to buy.  They just do not last.   Buy a Premium Belt with Top Cord support and you are done for the life of your boat, OK, good for a long time.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by MourningWood MourningWood wrote:

You may overcooking your omelet...


Probably right.  But then again I enjoy the conversation and don't mind learning a bit along the way!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 1:27pm
A long time ago, I bought a couple of Dayco belts that were a good fit and available pretty much everywhere. A little longer than the PCM numbers, but easier to install and adjust

Their numbers were Dayco 15405 (industry standard number 11A1030) for the alternator belt (40.5 inches .44 top width and 5/16 depth)

And Dayco 15460 (industry standard number 11A1170) for the raw water pump belt. (46 inches .44 top width and 5/16 depth)

They're both top cog belts and work just fine.

You can use those industry standard numbers to find equivalent size belts from all kinds of belt outfits in about any price range you want.

Here's a picture of a Dayco 15405 in a Mando alternator pulley

Height in the pulley is just right.Wink

It might even cross reference to your numbers for Gates and NAPA


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Running that cording at the top is the widest point so the belt is the strongest.   The cheap fan belts all have cording in the center of the belt because it cost less to produce them.  Even Dayco, Gates and Goodyear or Napa can sell you the cheap center cord belt also as the price line but quality belts will have top cording.

I kinda disagree, guess it depends on what you call the top.


2:20 mark talks about construction 
3:00 mark talks about the advantages of a clogged belt, 25-50% better life and able to withstand more heat due ability to reduce heat build up.

I’ve been running gates belts on all my boats. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 3:55pm
I modified my post with a picture.  From 1980 to 91 I worked for a Belt Manufacturer, I was there when they designed the first TOP COG belt and wrote many reports till they finally listened and improved that first product a year after first releasing it and modified it to work better in the modern cars.  The Top Cog belt added the cogs right on top of the TOP CORDING to help dissipate the heat and make it last longer.  A top cog belt is still a Top Cord belt with an enhancement.
It does work but in reality it was a great marketing gimmick, and I worked for them, but it really was great marketing with a proven advantage you could look at.   
Bottom cog belts allow for flexing around small pulleys while building less heat so bottom cogging is a good thing also.
 TOP CORDING is another subject, you put the cording at the top because it is the widest point so you get the most cording and the most strength in the belt.  Without the cording a belt will just stretch forever till it breaks.  A Top Cord belt is strong enough to lift your entire engine without stretching.

Now for a mind blower, some modern cars are built with no belt adjustment at all.  This is to save weight.  To allow this Belt Manufacturers invented a Stretch to fit belt so the new cording is flexible and will stretch and you tweak the belt over the pulleys and it snaps into place.  Goes against everything I was taught 40 years ago but there you have it.  Constant change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 5:41pm
Mark thanks for the explanation. 
I wouldn’t say top cog belts are/were a gimmick. In the snowmobile industry as horsepower has gone from 30hp 40 years ago to 165+ stock to north of 250 now a days they had to make the CVT belts withstand a ton more force and a lot more heat.
 They since have gone from a belt like the standard V belt to double clogged (top and bottom) to help with cooling.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 7:53pm
You are correct for that application, in automotive the top cog worked but it was a strong marketing tool.  Snowmobiling, we used to sponsor some races and I got to go to some.  At that time we sold the Black Max and it was the best belt the industry offered but that was in the 80's.  I have ridden the new Snow Machines they are awesome.   The last time out I was on an 800cc, it had so much power on a full throttle take off it would pull the front ski's for a while and I could barely hang on.  My forearms were toast after a day of riding up above Vail Co.   It was so much fun.  We had 30" of light powder but at 13,000 ft elevation that is pretty normal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

A Top Cord belt is strong enough to lift your entire engine without stretching.

Every now and then somebody says something that makes me say............"I think I'll try that and see what happens"

So, since I had a 351w engine on a wooden cart and an overhead hoist and a used top cord, bottom cog v belt that was of some unknown generic brand but made in Korea, I figured I'd give it a whirl and see what happened.

Here are a couple of pictures, first one with a slack belt and the second one with that little belt holding the engine up in the air (around 600 pounds with the wooden cart)





Since they decided to come out sideways, you'll have to rotate them, but there it is hanging about 6 inches off the floor and that little belt ain't even breaking a sweat. It hung there for an hour and I'd had enough and let it back down.

I measured it before and after and the numbers were the same too.

I don't think it would have any trouble spinning an alternator or water pump, unless you shred it due to something like alignment issues or a bad bearing etc making for a heat buildup in the belt Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 9:42pm
Ken you need to get some other hobbies besides lifting motors with fan belts.🤪
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-06-2022 at 10:18pm
The Dayco belts that start with 15 are 15/32 wide the last 3 digits are the actual belt length.  405=40.5inches
They are available in every 1/2" increment from 30 to 65" if needed.

Good thing that belt did not break Ken, you would have been after me for warranty.  You were brave to trust the Korean brand belt, I would have trusted Gates, Dayco or Goodyear and I hear all Dayco belts are now made in Italy.  Things keep changing, used to be Springfield Mo for all Dayco belts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjsmoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-07-2022 at 8:57am

There’s a lot of good information on belts here. Thanks to everyone input. Never to old to learn sometime new. Especially belts for they do play a vital row. Seeing an engine being held up by a belt is impressive. 

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