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96 GT40 - no spark

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Guyzir View Drop Down
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    Posted: October-21-2021 at 10:00am
Seeking some help understanding why I can't get my 96 Ski Nautique (GT40) to start.  I combed through the the GT40 poor man's guide but have yet to find a similar problem.  here is where I am at:

Ran the boat all summer no issues, and went through a period of 3-4 week with no use.  After the hiatus, I dropped in the water and nothing but ignition clicks (engine would not turn).  The marina had a mobile jumper pack, hooked up to the battery and boat fired right up.  Drove the boat for 30-40 minutes, beached on sandbar, shut engine off, and engine would start crank/turn (just ignition clicks).  Got another jump from fellow boater, fired right up.  Headed back to Marina, last boating adventure for the season.

Boat sat for a week in the driveway and started to troubleshoot the issue.  First move was to charge the battery up.  Now the boat cranks, but won't fire (no spark).  Here is what I did so far:
 1. Charged battery, cleaned and tightened terminals
 2. Tested fuse connected to the battery (0 ohms) - I saw there is now workaround for that, but I do get power up to the dashboard, when I hit when i depress ignition button - gauges, radio all power up.
3. replaced both relays, near the back of the engine 
4. Validated no spark
5. Dead man switch is still suspect, but when I push it in (with key in on position) - I can hear a click at the back of the boat. 
6. When I turn the key on, I don't hear the fuel pumps buzz either.  

So to conclude, engine turns/cranks consistently, but no spark.  Any ideas?

I saw in the manual the 12.5 breaker should be able to be reset, but that button is rock solid and doesn't move.  Could that be a potential culprit?

Thanks!  

Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nobrainsd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2021 at 11:31am
Have you had the battery load tested? Since the boat fired right up when jumped it sure sounds like you have a battery issue. You may have volts, but not sufficient amps. I have a simple carbon pile battery load tester from Harbor Freight. Surprising how many times I have tested batteries that I was told were good, but failed a load test. 
I think you can get the battery load tested for free at most auto parts stores like O'Reillys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guyzir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2021 at 2:06pm
Thats a great catch!  I have not had the battery load tested, that one slipped past me.  I'll try that tonight, hopefully that solves the mystery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2021 at 9:31am
Ditto on what nobrain said, also make sure you get a starting battery. 
This summer I had a similar issue with my 2000 Sport, replaced the smaller battery that came with the boat with a group 65N. that fixed the clicking no start issue.

I would also jump the kill switch to make sure that isn’t causing the no spark, no fuel pump issue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-22-2021 at 9:56am
“I would also jump the kill switch to make sure that isn’t causing the no spark, no fuel pump issue. “

Agreed definitely jump it but I believe the symptom of a kill switch issue would be start and stall repeatedly. Kill switch disables fuel pump but fuel pump will still cycle once at every start causing a start and stall each time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2021 at 7:11am
Is your mystery solved or do you need some suggestions on things to look at?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guyzir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2021 at 4:39pm
Mystery remains unresolved.

Here is the latest:
1. Tested battery at AutoZone and passed there diagnosis
2. Bypassed kill switch completely and rewired the connection directly together
3. Replaced both relays in the back of boat
4. confirmed still no spark - after removing a plug (grounding) and visually inspecting while turning the engine.
5. Do not hear the fuel pumps buzz/whine when key moves into on position
5. Engine still cranks, when attempting to start

I'll take any advice out there.

Thanks!

Joe


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2021 at 6:40pm

Based on having no spark and no fuel pumps either, it sounds like maybe you don't have power to the ECM relay (part number 13 in the diagram)

If you pull the ECM relay (it's the left one, the fuel pump relay is the right one) from it's socket and check for voltage with a multimeter where the 30 terminal plugs in (that terminal has a Red/Purple wire going to it), you should have about 12 volts. You can do this with the key in OFF or RUN or START. OFF is easiest. You're checking the socket not the relay

If you have about 12, that's good. If you have zero then check the input and output of the 12.5 amp breaker (#15 in diagram) to see if the breaker is tripped. It should be about 12 in and 12 out.

Next, looking at the diagram, same ECM socket check for voltage to the 85 terminal (it has a purple wire going to it) with the key in RUN. 

About 12 volts is good, zero is bad

From the sound of things, I think you might get zero at the 85 terminal.

This would prevent the ECM relay from energizing which would in turn prevent the fuel pump relay from energizing and you'd have no spark and no fuel pumps.

Post your results on the 2 checks Wink

I'm thinking you have the 310 page manual from the reference section. The bigger version of this diagram is on page 6-8

If you don't have it, click on the link below and you'll have it


On the socket you're checking voltages on, the other 2 wires are Black for the 86 terminal and Purple/Black for the 87, you don't need to  or want to test those for anything quite yet



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-23-2021 at 6:49pm
Jump starts, and any voltage spikes from jumping, or mistakes hooking things up sometimes don't play well with electronics and the checks above will provide some info with the results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guyzir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-31-2021 at 7:11pm
Hi KENO - finally got around to testing today.  I think we are getting somewhere....11.2 volts at Purple wire terminal and 0 at the red terminal.  I went ahead and tested the circuit breakers as well.  12.5amp breaker - 0 Volts   15amp breaker - 0 Volts  60amp breaker - 11.2 volts.

Ideas on where to go from here?

Thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 8:33am
 I think the Red terminal is really Red/Purple on the diagram, but you still have zero volts there.

If those breaker voltages of zero are on the output side and you have 11.2 on the input side, it seems like for whatever reason you have 2 tripped breakers that need to be reset.

You mentioned trying the 12.5 in your first post

If you push the Red button in you should feel a click and the breaker will stay on.

Then check your output voltages again.

if you have good voltage, try and start the engine.

If you don't, maybe the breakers are bad, but that seems a little too coincidental to have 2 bad breakers at the same time, so let's hope they reset and you can start the engine 

We'll just say "good luck Joe" Wink 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guyzir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 10:18am
Awesome - so to confirm my findings.  I believe the 85 terminal (purple wire) is the only place I have 12 volts.  see below.

60 AMP breaker 12 volts input and output
12.5 and 15 Amps 0 volts going in or out

The breaker buttons are stiff as a board and don't move..maybe that part of my problem?  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 11:44am
My 95 has the push button breakers.   They push really hard before clicking on or off.  My wife can’t push them and make them work.   I don’t like the design but at least my breakers work.   Sounds like you are on the path to recovery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 1:15pm
WD-40 squirted into the breakers can help bring them back to life. Disconnect the battery first. Exercise the breaker with the WD-40 squirted down the “barrel”. Use compressed air to blow the excess WD-40 out after the process.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 1:47pm
He's having trouble with the breakers on the engine not the dash......
69 Mustang HM SS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 1:54pm
If the ignition breaker on the dash is wonky, he may need to address that also.  On my old 1994, that dash breaker gave me problems for several months before I finally got around to fixing it.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

He's having trouble with the breakers on the engine not the dash......

What Gary said Wink

If you have 0 volts going in, you'll have 0 volts coming out

That seems to be your case Joe, which means you have a supply issue somewhere before those breakers.

When one of these breakers trips, you really can't tell by looking at the Red button if it's tripped or not.  It doesn't pop out any appreciable amount, but after the breaker cools off, when you press it, you'll feel a click when it resets.

If it's not tripped, you'll feel nothing change and no real movement of the button or anything else.

I'd use a multimeter on it's lowest scale (like the 20 scale for example) and if the breaker is shut you'll have a reading near 0, if it's open you'll have an infinite reading.

If you really have 0 into both breakers, that's a head scratcher at least for now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:

If the ignition breaker on the dash is wonky, he may need to address that also.  On my old 1994, that dash breaker gave me problems for several months before I finally got around to fixing it.   

JQ

He can crank the engine over with the key, so the ignition breaker on the dash isn't an issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-01-2021 at 11:20pm
OK, went astray on the dash breakers, if he really has no power to the under hood breakers I think I would start by testing them, supply 12V to the input side and see if 12V+ power is coming out the output side.  Maybe the supply cable is just rotted at one of the connections.   That would be an easy fix if you are lucky and that is all the problem is.   Without going back and re reading everything I thought he confirmed he had 12V+ coming in but a big voltage drop going out?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2021 at 7:36am
Originally posted by Guyzir Guyzir wrote:

Awesome - so to confirm my findings.  I believe the 85 terminal (purple wire) is the only place I have 12 volts.  see below.

60 AMP breaker 12 volts input and output
12.5 and 15 Amps 0 volts going in or out

The breaker buttons are stiff as a board and don't move..maybe that part of my problem?  




Continuing on..........you have 0 volts going into both the 12.5 and 15 amp breakers by your measurements, so you're gonna have to work backwards from there to figure out where the power is lost.

Originally the power to each was from different places, if you look at page 6-8 again.

The 6-8 diagram isn't great because the whole manual was written by Ford for the first of these engines that they produced which were for OMC/Volvo Penta and the PCM differences aren't noted in the manual You'll find different wiring at the starter and the slave solenoid in this case. (it doesn't show all the wires on the slave solenoid either) 

Also your 15 amp breaker shows as 20 amps in the diagram, the earliest ones were 20 later changed to a 15.

You mentioned that the fuse for the ECM at the battery tested at 0 ohms, but if you have some nasty corrosion or a break of the wire in the fuse holder, that would prevent power from getting to the 12.5 amp breaker so that's something to check

I think this is one of those "you need to be there with your eyes on it" situations
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guyzir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2021 at 9:07am
Roger that - I'll back track those wires.  Thanks for all the help, very much appreciated.
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