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Rich at high RPM - 4160 help

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    Posted: September-01-2021 at 9:27am
Hi Guys,

Long time reader, first time poster, hoping to get some ideas on how to solve a running issue I have been experiencing.  351w, 4160 carb (rebuilt before this season, runs much better than last year).  The main issue I have is that after setting down after a hard slalom run, the boat seems to be having to burn off residual fuel when it goes from ~3200-3400rpm to idle speed.  Basically I see black smoke, strong rich exhaust smell, sometimes even a little bit of unburnt fuel in the water after setting down.  It doesn't drip unmetered fuel at idle, but the butterflies, usually more-so the secondary butterflies, are definitely wet on top when this happens.  It does not leave the hole dirty like its loaded up and honestly it seems like it runs pretty good when we are skiing.  I've minimized the issue slightly by turning in my air screws, which are now only 3/4 of a turn out from the stops & I don't really want to go more than this if I don't have to.  I did this late in the evening yesterday and thought this really helped though.  I believe the idle circuit is working because at around 1/2 turn out, the engine definitely starts to stumble.

One thing I did try was to lower the float slightly on the secondary's, but honestly it didn't seem like that did anything, its about 1/32 lower than parallel.  I could go slightly more I think to try out.  Something else I've thought about doing was to change from the 5.0 power valve to 2.5, which I do have sitting here if anyone thinks that might be worth a try as I understand a lower powervalve sort of means it will run a little leaner.  Also, I think I should really be considering a more technical approach by putting a vacuum tester on it to see what the real numbers are across the RPM range. I'm sort of running out of ideas here as there does not seem to be an abundance of ways to fix this by tuning it out. Honestly the boat doesn't run bad but this issue is driving me insane when I see a light cloud of black smoke rolling on the transom every single time I set down from a ski set. It is pretty much the last issue I need to solve to where I can finally stop messing with the engine on this 36YO baby.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2021 at 9:42am

Secondaries shouldn't be open at 3400rpm skiing, so wet sec butterflies are a clue that should not be dismissed, imo.
I think you need to get a driver and simulate the condition while you looking inside with the FA off

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huckelfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2021 at 10:06am
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:


Secondaries shouldn't be open at 3400rpm skiing, so wet sec butterflies are a clue that should not be dismissed, imo.
I think you need to get a driver and simulate the condition while you looking inside with the FA off


I think I will be doing that this weekend. So now this has me thinking, I was having a problem a few weeks ago that I thought I 'solved' but now starting to wonder if it was just a bandaid fix to what my overall problem might actually be.  The secondaries were actually holding open when returning to idle ever-so slightly and it was causing extremely high idle conditions unless I flicked the key off and cycled power.  Sometimes it would be as high as 2000rpm. I 'fixed' this by realizing the linkage that connects the secondary's to the primary was very loose to the point where I could easily move the secondary butterflies.  I bent that linkage so it had essentially no play left in it when the primary was on its idle stop and haven't had this issue since. 

Could my secondaries wanting to stay open indicate a an issue that would contribute to the rich condition? Assuming this is a vacuum leak, excessive vacuum, something like that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-01-2021 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by Huckelfin Huckelfin wrote:

Hi Guys,

Long time reader, first time poster, hoping to get some ideas on how to solve a running issue I have been experiencing.  351w, 4160 carb (rebuilt before this season, runs much better than last year).  The main issue I have is that after setting down after a hard slalom run, the boat seems to be having to burn off residual fuel when it goes from ~3200-3400rpm to idle speed.  Basically I see black smoke, strong rich exhaust smell, sometimes even a little bit of unburnt fuel in the water after setting down.  It doesn't drip unmetered fuel at idle, but the butterflies, usually more-so the secondary butterflies, are definitely wet on top when this happens.  It does not leave the hole dirty like its loaded up and honestly it seems like it runs pretty good when we are skiing.  I've minimized the issue slightly by turning in my air screws, which are now only 3/4 of a turn out from the stops & I don't really want to go more than this if I don't have to.  I did this late in the evening yesterday and thought this really helped though.  I believe the idle circuit is working because at around 1/2 turn out, the engine definitely starts to stumble.

One thing I did try was to lower the float slightly on the secondary's, but honestly it didn't seem like that did anything, its about 1/32 lower than parallel.  I could go slightly more I think to try out.  Something else I've thought about doing was to change from the 5.0 power valve to 2.5, which I do have sitting here if anyone thinks that might be worth a try as I understand a lower powervalve sort of means it will run a little leaner.  Also, I think I should really be considering a more technical approach by putting a vacuum tester on it to see what the real numbers are across the RPM range. I'm sort of running out of ideas here as there does not seem to be an abundance of ways to fix this by tuning it out. Honestly the boat doesn't run bad but this issue is driving me insane when I see a light cloud of black smoke rolling on the transom every single time I set down from a ski set. It is pretty much the last issue I need to solve to where I can finally stop messing with the engine on this 36YO baby.  

Unless you have an automotive smog era 4160, those air screws you're adjusting are really fuel screws so you going down to 3/4 of a turn is making the primary idle circuit leaner, so that means you're compensating for extra fuel from somewhere if it's running better like that.

You can have unmetered paths that you can't see, like a leaky power valve gasket, leaky power valve diaphragm, or wrong metering block to body gasket.

What's your idle speed in neutral and idle speed in gear?

Good smooth idle or kinda ragged?

You shouldn't have to play with secondary float level unless you have inlet needle and seat leakage since the carburetor is mounted at an angle in your 85 whatever it is

Silly question, but what is this 36 year old baby, must be a________________ fill in the blank Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huckelfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2021 at 10:00am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


Unless you have an automotive smog era 4160, those air screws you're adjusting are really fuel screws so you going down to 3/4 of a turn is making the primary idle circuit leaner, so that means you're compensating for extra fuel from somewhere if it's running better like that.

You can have unmetered paths that you can't see, like a leaky power valve gasket, leaky power valve diaphragm, or wrong metering block to body gasket.

What's your idle speed in neutral and idle speed in gear?

Good smooth idle or kinda ragged?

You shouldn't have to play with secondary float level unless you have inlet needle and seat leakage since the carburetor is mounted at an angle in your 85 whatever it is

Silly question, but what is this 36 year old baby, must be a________________ fill in the blank Wink

That was my understanding of the adjustment screws which is why I didn't want to mess with them any further, something else is wrong here. Since I mess around with the carb so much, honestly my N idle speed varies, but usually I shoot for around 700, in gear around 550-600. Idle speed issues is what prompted me to buy a rebuild kit in the first place, because it would idle differently every time I turned it on and it would be +/- 100rpm constantly.  This was before I found out I had gas dripping down the main venturis pretty badly. I probably could have just reset the float and be where I was today instead of taking the whole carb apart.

After rebuild the thing ran WAY rich with floats parallel. Lots of primary at-idle drip. After adjusting the primary 1/16" lower, it starts almost always with flick of the key and doesn't do the black smoke thing until after a hard ski pull. It doesn't idle super ragged, and really the engine is pretty well behaved, not a lot of vibration, no top end noises, etc. 

And yeah I figured someone would catch me pretty quick, hopefully I'm not breaking rules... Its not a Nautique, its an 85MC. Honestly though the only answers I was getting out of anyone on MC forums was to 'just replace the carb'. Well I don't 'just' have $700 for a carb laying around right now on a boat that doesn't run THAT bad, I am willing to mess with it and try and figure out my issue instead of just throw parts at it. CCF seems way more technical than that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2021 at 10:46am
Your secondaries are hanging open because the Idle stop is currently open too much, causing the secondary return rod to be slack, BUT DO NOT GO BENDING IT as a fix...

Right now one or both of your idle fuel orifices are clogged, causing you to up the idle stop until it gets enough fuel to idle,  but that fuel is coming from the transition slots, whom get their fuel from the main circuit instead. 
As the fuel from the mains to feed the transition slots mixes with air from the main air bleeds, this causes fuel to percolate up to the boosters and make them drip as you see.

Therefore clean the inside of the metering block until either idle screw can shut down the engine by itself. This will then let you lower the idle stop, and  the secondaries will stop hanging open a scunch after hard run, and also the dripping primary boosters will stop. 

Also, the idle mix is actually both an air and fuel screw, its a very rich air/fuel emulsion at that point,  mixed from the idle fuel orifice and the idle bleed air orifice, and exits under the throttle blade.

Also, keep the 5.5 or 6.5 PV,  the  2.5 in the kit will leave you dull. Be certain you use the right gasket type
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Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

Your secondaries are hanging open because the Idle stop is currently open too much, causing the secondary return rod to be slack, BUT DO NOT GO BENDING IT as a fix...

Right now one or both of your idle fuel orifices are clogged, causing you to up the idle stop until it gets enough fuel to idle,  but that fuel is coming from the transition slots, whom get their fuel from the main circuit instead. 
As the fuel from the mains to feed the transition slots mixes with air from the main air bleeds, this causes fuel to percolate up to the boosters and make them drip as you see.

Therefore clean the inside of the metering block until either idle screw can shut down the engine by itself. This will then let you lower the idle stop, and  the secondaries will stop hanging open a scunch after hard run, and also the dripping primary boosters will stop. 

Also, the idle mix is actually both an air and fuel screw, its a very rich air/fuel emulsion at that point,  mixed from the idle fuel orifice and the idle bleed air orifice, and exits under the throttle blade.

Also, keep the 5.5 or 6.5 PV,  the  2.5 in the kit will leave you dull. Be certain you use the right gasket type

Ouch I already bent is as a fix, doh. It's okay I think, I remember where it was and about how much play I had. So right now I am able to turn either screw all the way in and it WILL kill the engine. I can see the engine start to stumble when I get to about 0.5 turns out on either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2021 at 12:23pm
Thats a good sign. id say leave it alone for now.

If we find something else amiss  and get to close the idle stop more, it will be apparent to you then that the primary binds and hands up on the secondary close rod

One can flip the carb over and view how much of the xfer slot is exposed, shouldn't be much.

But i'd put eyes on its operation before taking it apart agian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2021 at 1:40pm
So.........Huck's got an MC, nothing wrong with that.  

I don't think anybody around here cares, you'll find about any brand of inboard being discussed   

Probably the best thing you could do with an extra 25 bucks or so, is to get one of the many paperback Holley rebuild/tuning manuals that are out there. Plenty of info and pictures in them.

You can read it when you're working on the boat/carburetor or even when you're doing your biz on the porcelain throne. I seem to do my best learning there Wink

Like Gotta Ski said, that bent arm may have "fixed" one issue and created another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huckelfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2021 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

So.........Huck's got an MC, nothing wrong with that.  

I don't think anybody around here cares, you'll find about any brand of inboard being discussed   

Probably the best thing you could do with an extra 25 bucks or so, is to get one of the many paperback Holley rebuild/tuning manuals that are out there. Plenty of info and pictures in them.

You can read it when you're working on the boat/carburetor or even when you're doing your biz on the porcelain throne. I seem to do my best learning there Wink

Like Gotta Ski said, that bent arm may have "fixed" one issue and created another.

Good call on the tuning manual, I will take a look I'll have a driver recreate the scenario for me  while I observe and report back. So I might have misspoke but I did not mean to say that one issue caused the other. The smoke after high rpm running was always there, the secondaries sticking open was a separate issue, that I thought might be tied into all this. So IE, bending the arm did not cause or reduce the richness, but it did prevent setting down to 1000-2000rpm intermittent idle every single time I've been out so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-02-2021 at 8:24pm
Huck

If you read the quote below from an old thread and click on the link showing the air bleed orifices, it wouldn't hurt to be sure all 8 of your air bleeds are clean as shown in the link.

You may have cleaned them when the carburetor was apart for rebuild/cleaning, but lots of people don't know what they are or what they do and they don't get cleaned

The main air bleeds affect the high speed mixture and the idle affect the low speed mixture.

It only takes some carburetor cleaner and compressed air.


Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Based on your last post you may need to clean your idle air bleeds (and the main air bleeds while you're at it.)

There are pictures in the link below of the air bleed locations on a Holley.  

The outboard holes are the main air bleeds and the inboard holes are the idle air bleeds.

You might as well do all 8 of them with spray carburetor cleaner and compressed air. (4 on the primary side, 4 on the secondary side, all shown in the picture). It can also be done with the carburetor apart blowing in the other direction, internally to external, but this is easy and usually works.

Like the writeup says, you can do it in place, then I'd set the idle mixture screws out about 1 1/2 turns as a starting point and do the previously mentioned "twiddling" to be sure you're idling on the idle circuit.

If no luck, you'll have to take the front bowl and the metering block off and make sure all those tiny passages associated with the idle system and it's air bleeds in the metering block and carburetor body are clean and blown out.

Having rebuilt it last year, I don't know if you might have blown out the air bleeds or not. Lots of people never go near them

Somebody is bound to jump in and say that isn't a marine Holley 4160, but that OK, the pictures are only to show where the air bleeds are located. Wink

As far as the guys thoughts on ethanol, everybody has thoughts, not all the same.

link

You could have other issues but this is a cheap easy start.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huckelfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-03-2021 at 9:21am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Huck

If you read the quote below from an old thread and click on the link showing the air bleed orifices, it wouldn't hurt to be sure all 8 of your air bleeds are clean as shown in the link.

You may have cleaned them when the carburetor was apart for rebuild/cleaning, but lots of people don't know what they are or what they do and they don't get cleaned

The main air bleeds affect the high speed mixture and the idle affect the low speed mixture.

It only takes some carburetor cleaner and compressed air.


Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Based on your last post you may need to clean your idle air bleeds (and the main air bleeds while you're at it.)

There are pictures in the link below of the air bleed locations on a Holley.  

The outboard holes are the main air bleeds and the inboard holes are the idle air bleeds.

You might as well do all 8 of them with spray carburetor cleaner and compressed air. (4 on the primary side, 4 on the secondary side, all shown in the picture). It can also be done with the carburetor apart blowing in the other direction, internally to external, but this is easy and usually works.

Like the writeup says, you can do it in place, then I'd set the idle mixture screws out about 1 1/2 turns as a starting point and do the previously mentioned "twiddling" to be sure you're idling on the idle circuit.

If no luck, you'll have to take the front bowl and the metering block off and make sure all those tiny passages associated with the idle system and it's air bleeds in the metering block and carburetor body are clean and blown out.

Having rebuilt it last year, I don't know if you might have blown out the air bleeds or not. Lots of people never go near them

Somebody is bound to jump in and say that isn't a marine Holley 4160, but that OK, the pictures are only to show where the air bleeds are located. Wink

As far as the guys thoughts on ethanol, everybody has thoughts, not all the same.

link

You could have other issues but this is a cheap easy start.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion, I can definitely manage this. I did go through each hole when I was rebuilding mine and made sure I had some flow through each, but I understand how this stuff goes sometimes. Things can easily be missed. When I took the primary bowl off, there was what I could only describe as very fine sand and buildup inside of it. I can only imagine how this affects the internals of the carb after so long to have anything other than fuel blasting through the little holes and orifices.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huckelfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-16-2021 at 10:36pm
So I took a short video looking down the carb today while I simulated a slalom run.  The video kind of sucks, its hard to see anything but maybe someone can recognize something blatantly incorrect, as I really don't know what things look like when everything is working perfectly. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km6YzmenaWg
Hind sight, I should have done a second pull while recording of full throttle no speed control target speed.  But honestly, I rarely do this & the main concern by far is the slalom run.

One thing I noticed was that the operation of the secondaries is way less than I had imagined, they basically cracked open about 1/2 way near the end of the pull before it reached the target boat speed. When they opened, you can't see from the video, but the boosters struggled to have a nice completely atomized spray pattern like the mains.  It was slightly atomized, but it was also just dumping fuel during that time.

The other big thing I noticed was that when the driver returned to 0 throttle, the mains went from spraying nicely, to dumping fuel for a brief moment. I understand it's not fuel injection so I would imagine this just happens when you go from a lot of throttle to none instantly. However, I could see that as being the reason it smells so rich after the boat stops.  The tops of the butterflies soaking wet, and definitely wet on the secondaries.

Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks. Also I should add that I sprayed carb cleaner down the 8 air bleed orifices and they all seemed to be free of blockage.
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Huck

Why don't you disconnect the secondary linkage and wire them shut and take the boat for a ride?

Make sure they're wired so they can't randomly flop around.

That'll help you determine how much of your issue is caused by the secondaries.

You might be surprised how good it runs on the primaries.

PS the video made me dizzy Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2021 at 9:39am
Don't look that bad to me

What's your base timing at?
Not enough can make it stanky
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Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Huck

Why don't you disconnect the secondary linkage and wire them shut and take the boat for a ride?

Make sure they're wired so they can't randomly flop around.

That'll help you determine how much of your issue is caused by the secondaries.

You might be surprised how good it runs on the primaries.

PS the video made me dizzy Wink 

Shoot I totally forgot to do this today.  Oh well, hopefully this weekend.



Anyway guys, I wanted to relay that I discovered I am running 67 main jets... After doing some research, this seems unusually fat for a stock 351w. It seems that 65's are more common, I even see some 64, and also people talk about 66's on teamtalk. In any event, I am not running at elevation, could this be the source of my woes? I feel like I'm not getting anywhere with this. From my background in other motorsports that involve water, I know that a single jet size move can make a big difference on how an engine runs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-02-2021 at 5:53am
What's the list number on your carburetor?

Here's an example 50419-1



Knowing that, you can see what it had in it when Holley built it.

I think you have this elevation thing backwards. At elevation you'd want leaner jetting but as you say, you're not at elevation.

This big 4 stroke hunk of engine isn't nearly as sensitive to jetting as something like a small 2 stroke jet ski engine for example.
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It was the jetting. After comparing the 65's to the 67's that were installed, I think someone may have even drilled the 67's out because the orifices were MUCH bigger. It runs so much better now. Before while skiing at 34.5mph, the boat would have a hard time reacting to pulls from a strong skier, and sometimes it required so much extra throttle input that the secondaries would open randomly and it just did not seem like it was completely correct, resulting in a fairly squishy pull & what seemed like a dead spot in the throttle right at skiing speed. I chaulked this up to being a characteristic of my budget speed control system (steadypass), but with the leaner jets, this does not occur anymore. It reacts SO much quicker to the pull of the skier and much more accurately. I think overall with the 67's it was just straight up running too fat and it was loading up at all times, hence the seemingly dead spot in the throttle. I think it is also worth mentioning that I could NEVER get it to run correctly with 1.5 turns out on the air bleed screws, that always resulted in way too much fuel. The engine was happier at 0.75 turns out, which has always been a small red flag to me. Setting the carb with he 1.5 turns out now runs fine.

EIther way, no more gas in the water, no more smoky smelly startups.. I am so much happier going into winter like this as I was extremely close to breaking down and buying a new carb. Thanks for the help everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2021 at 11:32am
Yay!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2021 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Huckelfin Huckelfin wrote:

I think it is also worth mentioning that I could NEVER get it to run correctly with 1.5 turns out on the air bleed screws, that always resulted in way too much fuel. The engine was happier at 0.75 turns out, which has always been a small red flag to me. Setting the carb with he 1.5 turns out now runs fine.



Huck

Quit calling them things air bleed screws, somebody on Teamtalk told you they controlled the air, but they don't, they control idle fuel flow,  Wink

And.......good job
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Huckelfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2021 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by Huckelfin Huckelfin wrote:

I think it is also worth mentioning that I could NEVER get it to run correctly with 1.5 turns out on the air bleed screws, that always resulted in way too much fuel. The engine was happier at 0.75 turns out, which has always been a small red flag to me. Setting the carb with he 1.5 turns out now runs fine.



Huck

Quit calling them things air bleed screws, somebody on Teamtalk told you they controlled the air, but they don't, they control idle fuel flow Wink

And.......good job

I think this is just a nomenclature issue on my end, I never thought they had anything to do with airflow. I think I just saw them called that somewhere by accident.
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Grand Poobah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-08-2021 at 12:43pm
What's your list number, just out of curiosity?

Just to avoid confusion,  It's an emulsified air/fuel mix flowing past the idle mixture screws by the time the fuel and air get there, .
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