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Starter and ring gear replacement?

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Wilhelm Hertzog View Drop Down
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    Posted: August-02-2021 at 3:34am
With the transmission pulled from my boat I've been able to take a good look at the ring gear and starter. If either (especially the ring gear) is due for replacement, now would be a perfect time. I have had the odd problem with the starter pinion gear not engaging the ring gear properly, causing that cringe-inducing 'metal gear grinding on metal gear' noise. This usually happens once or twice on a weekend's boating, but has never left me stranded - the gears usually engage perfectly fine on the second attempt at starting (after grinding on the first).

However, I'm all for preventative maintenance, and have no desire to push my luck with the starter and ring gear as far as it will go. Hence my question: is it time for replacement, based on my experience and the pictures below? The ring gear and pinion both look to me like they have been worn down somewhat (see the rounded front edges/tips of the gears where they engage each other), but based on the wear pattern on the rest of the pinion gear it seems the two gears engage reasonably well (the black wear pattern on the pinion gear teeth seems to extend reasonably far into and down each tooth). Should I replace either, or maybe both? Or is the starter plunger perhaps just occasionally not extending fully and hence causing the gears not to engage properly, resulting in the grinding? Which can be solved with a starter rebuild, and not gear replacement?

Thanks a lot for any opinions and help!

Ring gear close up:


Starter:


Pinion close up:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 7:50am
Wilhelm,
The starter sure could use a clean up. Clean it up and bench test it to see if the bendix gear will extend all the way.  I'd even bolt the starter up to the bell housing, apply power and check the engagement. 

On the ring gear, if you find it hard to get a new one over there, you could just flip the old one and give it a try. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 9:44am
Thanks Pete. Am I right that the ring gear teeth are indeed worn on one side - they're not meant to be asymmetrical to make engagement with the bendix easier or smoother or something to that effect?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 10:07am
Originally posted by Wilhelm Hertzog Wilhelm Hertzog wrote:

Thanks Pete. Am I right that the ring gear teeth are indeed worn on one side - they're not meant to be asymmetrical to make engagement with the bendix easier or smoother or something to that effect?

You are correct the teeth are asymmetrical so, my idea of flipping the ring gear is wrong. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 10:15am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

You are correct the teeth are asymmetrical so, my idea of flipping the ring gear is wrong. 

Okay, thanks, so they're not just worn like I first assumed. I'll get stuck into cleaning and testing the starter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 10:17am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by Wilhelm Hertzog Wilhelm Hertzog wrote:

Thanks Pete. Am I right that the ring gear teeth are indeed worn on one side - they're not meant to be asymmetrical to make engagement with the bendix easier or smoother or something to that effect?

You are correct the teeth are asymmetrical so, my idea of flipping the ring gear is wrong. 

It's not often that Pete says he wrong but he's really right Wink

The teeth are symmetrical when it's new, tours are worn down, but you could flip it over on the flywheel if you can't easily get a new one.

I'd also consider an Arco 70201 starter or an equivalent that cross references to it.

It's for a RR engine and it's the newer, smaller, better performing PMGR starter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 10:23am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

The teeth are symmetrical when it's new, tours are worn down, but you could flip it over on the flywheel if you can't easily get a new one.

I'd also consider an Arco 70201 starter or an equivalent that cross references to it.

It's for a RR engine and it's the newer, smaller, better performing PMGR starter.

Thanks Ken. 'Worn down' as in should be replaced, or 'worn down' as in should be good for another couple of hundred hours of boating?

If I pay up for shipping via Fedex or the like I should be able to get a new ring gear easily enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67 ski nat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 12:51pm
Pretty sharp Pete.
And ken with the assist
Like Koby and Shaquille
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 2:07pm
So............ I think me and Pete took turns being right and wrong a couple of times maybe Wink 

After looking at a new 157 tooth ring gear there is no difference in the bevel of the teeth from one side to the other.

However.........there is a bevel on the ID of the gear on one side, so if you try to flip it, the gear won't sit in the same spot on the flywheel and will give you problems

First picture is the teeth and the second is the bevel on one side of the ID.

I'd probably get a new ring gear since everything is apart right now and not have to worry about how long the present one will last.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 2:17pm
Thanks again Ken. I never cease to be amazed at how you manage to whip out the exact part (or a link to a picture of it) to show exactly what something should look like or what is required to solve a problem. Jaw dropping stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 2:36pm
Sometimes I amaze myself Wink

I have lotsa parts hanging around. And.......I've uh broken lots of stuff too.

Some day I might achieve the "supreme hoarder" status of Gary S...........maybe

BTW  A part number you could cross reference is Pioneer FRG-157N or ATP ZA-503
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-02-2021 at 4:18pm
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Taking the “supreme hoarder” crown off of Gary would be a monumental task LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-04-2021 at 5:58pm

I'm increasingly leaning towards replacing the starter as well while I'm at it. Below is another close up of the pinion gear - which to me looks rather like it is worn as described on page 5-05 (p.98 of the PDF) of this service manual, and should be replaced (according to the service manual). My phone's camera struggled to focus at such close range, but I trust the rounding/milling on the 'nose' of the gear teeth is evident.


I disassembled the starter last night, and it is a corroded mess inside - especially the field coils.

So, as to a replacement starter: Arco 70201 seems to be the way to go, as that is the one that Skidim and Nautiqueparts.com carry (in addition to the old style one carried by Nautiqueparts.com - AC Delco I believe). Any other suggestions?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-04-2021 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Some day I might achieve the "supreme hoarder" status of Gary S...........maybe

Tough job- but someone has to do it. 


As to the Arco starters they seem pretty good.I have not had the one very long but it has had alot of use. The GT40 I picked up already has one on it. They are light and easy to install.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote woodyelc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-10-2021 at 2:55pm
We have the ring gear in stock. part number r139006.  Can be ordered from nautiqueparts.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2021 at 4:25am
Originally posted by woodyelc woodyelc wrote:

We have the ring gear in stock. part number r139006.  Can be ordered from nautiqueparts.com

Thanks - I placed my order for a new starter and ring gear from Nautiqueparts.com on Monday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2021 at 6:31am
As I'm going to be replacing my ring gear soon, can someone perhaps give me guidance on the following? Page 1-34 of the service manual says to coat the flywheel attaching bolts with 'oil-resistant sealer' when re-installing the flywheel. I read that to mean something like Permatex No.2, not Loctite Red or Blue. Yet I see some comments on forums (including CCF, if I'm not mistaken) that one should apply thread locker to these bolts.

What is the right way to do this?

Thanks for any guidance!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2021 at 8:08am
Its not that aerospace-critical. most anything will do. I opt for blue
Torque is more important, go over it two passes
and really shouldn't be oil slinging around anyway, else there is bigger problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2021 at 5:06pm
I'd use the Loctite before the Permatex.

The bolts go into blind holes so there's no worry about oil seeping out through the threads

Your internet research probably also found lots of instances of just torqueing the bolts and using no sealer of any kind.

I don' think there's one real "right way" 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2021 at 5:43pm
I’m backyard so take with a grain of salt, I would blow out holes with compressed air, then brake clean, air again, blue loctite and torque to spec in star pattern. Done
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2021 at 3:45am
While I have everything disassembled: is there any benefit to painting the flywheel and starter locating/block plate? Or is it not advisable? They both have a lot of rust on them, which I'd like to avoid in future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2021 at 6:39am
Can't hurt to paint them Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2021 at 3:28am
Quick update here: I painted the flywheel, fit the new ring gear (which was surprisingly easy - flywheel in the freezer overnight, ring gear in the oven at its hottest setting, slipped right over and pulled tight as it cooled down), and bolted the flywheel back on to the crankshaft.

However: I am now second guessing whether I fit the ring gear the right way around. I followed the guidance in this video (link), which says to place the larger bevel down on the flywheel (around the 3:50 mark in the video). Contrary to Ken's observations above that the ring gear teeth are symmetrical, my ring gear's teeth seem to be square on one side, and ever so slightly beveled on the other side. With the ring gear fitted the way it is (i.e. large bevel down), the starter will now engage with the square side of the ring gear teeth. My gut (and this post on another automotive forum) says the ring gear teeth are beveled on one side to allow for smoother starter engagement, and that the starter should be engaging with the beveled side of the gear teeth, not the square side.

So, before I ruin a new ring gear and starter: should I flip the ring gear around?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2021 at 6:35am
I'd leave it alone  Wink

Large bevel down .in this picture from earlier n the thread is how it fits properly on the flywheel.

I can post another picture or 2 later that might help.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2021 at 9:03am
Thanks Ken. As far as I can tell, the two sides of the ring gear are parallel to each other, so I'm not sure why the ring gear would fit differently on the flywheel depending on which way around it is fitted?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-21-2021 at 10:21am
Don't say thanks yet

After a couple of hours of playing with flywheels and ring gears, it seems that the stock ring gear doesn't have that big pronounced bevel on it.

Both sides are the same on the stock one..

The aftermarket one that's in the picture has the bevel, but I put it on a flywheel and did some measuring and it sat at the same depth whether it was put on bevel first or bevel facing out.

I'd imagine some aftermarket ones have the bevel and some don't.

It looks like the bevel is there to make installation a little easier. With my swapping it helped to center things compared to the no bevel side going on first.

Pictures still to come if you need more

Since you can see what you have, maybe going with your gut would be a good thing.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wilhelm Hertzog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-31-2021 at 10:27am
Update/wrap up: I second-guessed my gut and decided to keep the ring gear installed the way I did it initially (i.e. large bevel side down). This was after concluding that the chamfer on the ring gear teeth will have little effect on how the bendix engages with the ring gear, as the bendix itself is chamfered, and the bendix will be facing a square edge as it moves into the ring gear regardless of the chamfer on the ring gear teeth it is engaging with. This is because the bendix engages from the front, not the top of the ring gear. The image below may help to clarify what I mean. In addition, in my mind there may be less 'tooth' to engage with if the chamfered bendix engages with the chamfered side of the ring gear tooth. All of this may just be me trying to rationalize doing less work though.

So far so good however: new starter is working great, and engagement with the ring gear seems smooth.




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