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carburation problem after winterize |
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rwittmer 
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 Topic: carburation problem after winterizePosted: June-13-2021 at 10:00am |
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Hello,
Once again I would like some assistance in diagnosing a problem with my 92 Nautique. Here is what happened. Had my dealer "winterize" my Nautique and having it water ready for relaunch. Have had good dealer servicing for the last 17 years. Last winter I inadvertently forgot to put fuel into the tank. (totally my fault). The tank was almost empty but during the winterization the dealer added a can of "fuel conditioner" to the tank. I put my Nautique back into the water yesterday and started the engine as I have done for many years, but it was running very rough and very rich with lots of smoke. Usually it cleared within a minute or so but this time just wouldn't run properly. I looked at the fuel gauge and it was EMPTY. Again I didn't add fuel since the winterization so I figured the engine was trying to run on engine conditioner instead of fuel. Totally my mistake so I pulled out the Nautique and filled the tank with fresh gas and tried again. This time it started up , engine sounded normal but won't hold idle and engine RPM varies heavely below 2500 RPM. High speed is good but even there there is some hesitation or fluctuation in RPM. At idle I can smell fresh gas. I am assuming that something got clogged up in the fuel system, filter, carburator etc. Anyone have an idea what this could be? Thanks to all, |
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Rene Wittmer
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah 
Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2840 |
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 11:20am |
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It certainly sounds like you have carburetor problems.
1. Fuel in tank at layup -- Many experts agree that you should fill the tank to 7/8 full prior to layup. This helps mitigate condensation while allowing for some fuel expansion with the changing temperatures.
2. Fuel Stabilizer -- You mentioned "fuel conditioner". Do you know what the product was? Fuel conditioner can be applied to many products, but you want a fuel stabilizer that can mitigate gasoline oxidation and degradation over the layup period. Gasoline is a blend of a number of different chemicals. Over time, it begins to break down, as it’s exposed to both oxygen and moisture from the air around it. Even if you store your boat with an almost full tank of gas to keep as much air out as possible, oxidation will still occur. If your fuel contains a percentage of ethanol, which is hygroscopic, meaning it does a very good job of attracting and absorbing water. This only accelerates the breakdown of fuel. Usually around the 3 to 6 month mark, the oxidation process will start to degrade gasoline to the point where it becomes a nasty, varnish-like mess that can clog your fuel lines and gum up your tank, pump and carburetor (or injectors). What to do now? 1. Change your fuel/water separator filter unit. 2. This is a good time to "rebuild" the carburetor. Carbs really need a good rebuild after so many hours of use to restore them back to peak performance and efficiency. A carb rebuild is not ultra technical, so unless you have frying-pan hands, you can do this at home. It is likely that you have a marine version of the Holley 4160 carb. You can do a search on YouTube and see tutorials on how to rebuild that carb. To get the specific rebuild kit for your carb, you need to find the carb number. Your carburetor ID number should be hand-stamped on the front of the choke tower on most typical Holley carbs. The list number typically is digits long and may or may not have a suffix number behind it. The date code will be right below it. With that ID number, you can reach out to www.skidim.com or NautiqueParts.com and get the correct rebuild kit. I'm betting that will solve your engine idle and rough running problems. One last note...As your boat is a 1992, does your engine have the ProTec engine management system? One quick way to determine yes or no to ProTec: Is there a traditional looking distributor with spark plug wires at the front of the engine? Or do the spark plug wires run to the back of the engine to 4 square looking blocks? JQ
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 12:38pm |
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Thanks for your info. Since it’s a 92 I will bring it to my dealer tomorrow morning. Will have carb rebuilt. I will post when work is done.
Thanks |
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Rene Wittmer
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 12:44pm |
Rene, JQ mentioned the Pro Tec becuse it could be the problem and not the carb. Check to see if it does have it.
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 1:29pm |
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Just checked, it say Pro Tec on the cover. I took a few pics as the carb I don't see a visable number,
Thanks How can I upload my pics?
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Rene Wittmer
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 2:01pm |
Rene, Here's how: |
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KENO
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 3:26pm |
In case you're having trouble figuring out the picture posting, here's a picture showing where to find the list number.  The one in the picture is 50419-1.
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 4:50pm |
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Rene Wittmer
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 4:53pm |
  Sorry everyone, but keep getting error trying to upload ima  |
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Rene Wittmer
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 4:55pm |
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Having browser issues, I did mention the smell of fresh gas and also the Nautique in the rear at DECK level has become blackish color due to fumes which seems to be over rich.
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Rene Wittmer
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 4:59pm |
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Here's one more
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Rene Wittmer
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Jonny Quest
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 6:34pm |
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Rene:
Thanks for the pictures. As indicated in the metal engine tag, the engine is a PLP-PR-R12PT. That is super-secret Correct Craft speak for: Pleasure Craft Engine Left Hand Rotation P "engine" or Ford-based 351 W High Output Pleasure Craft Transmission RR reverse rotation transmission 12 means 1.23:1 transmission ration PT is ProTec engine management system Your troubles could be caused from the carburetor, ProTec, or a combination of both. I discussed (above) the potential carb issues. A carb rebuild is not a big deal and may fix the symptoms. So, you have ProTec... ProTec was an engine management system developed by PCM. It was a reasonably good system for its day, but now there are no longer any repair parts available if the system starts to fail. There are many happy ProTec owners out there whose ProTec continues to perform as designed. Sadly, there are also many owners out there whose ProTec has failed. ProTec EMS, or Engine Management System, was designed to manage the spark distribution and timing of the engine. The system was designed to optimize the timing advance for performance and to provide some type of protection in the event of a serious engine malfunction. If ProTec senses a significant loss in oil pressure or a high engine temperature, the system goes into "Limp Mode" which shuts down most of the cylinders and limits RPM to just above 2,000. The idea behind this was to allow the boat to "limp home" in the event of an engine malfunction, without totally destroying the engine in the process. A ProTec system that is failing can exhibit several symptoms, i.e. hard-to-start cold; hard-to-start hot; intermittent engine shut-down; limp mode when all systems are fine, etc. My old 1994 Ski Nautique came from the factory with ProTec and throttle-body fuel injection. I was experiencing intermittent hard-to-star problems when the engine was warm. Then the system completely failed -- in the middle of Lake Powell, Utah. That was painful. If ProTec is, indeed, failing then you may want to consider retro-fitting the engine back to the "old school" distributor and coil. Many former ProTec owners have done this and it is well documented here on CCF. There are kits that you can purchase from SkiDim.com and NautiqueParts.com, or you can simply do it yourself and purchase the required parts as the retrofit is fairly simple. Before you start getting all ProTec worried, I would tackle the carb rebuild. If that solves the problem, then you may be able to get a few more seasons out of ProTec. If the engine gremlins persist after the carb rebuild, then you may want to look at a ProTec conversion. JQ |
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 6:54pm |
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Great advice and much appreciated. I am leaning towards a carburator issue as my Nautique still runs to 4300 RPM. You can feel slight variations in RPM. The variations in RPM are much greater at lower RPM. I’ll go with the Carb first and then ProTec as the next step. I can tell you that my dealer is exclusive for Eastern Canada and has 2 stores in the province of Quebec. So I think I’m in good hands. But I will definitely post back when my issues are resolved.
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Rene Wittmer
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desertskier
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 6:58pm |
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That's a Holley 4010. I think CC only used them for a short time. My '92 came with one also. I rebuilt mine a few times over the years but for some reason it had a problem with floats cracking. After replacing the floats a few times I decided to swap it out for a Holley 4160. Most CCs came with the 4160 rather than a 4010. If you are going to keep the boat I suggest just buying a new or rebuilt 4160 or as JQ will probably recommend the Quickfuel equivalent. The only difference is the fuel line from the fuel pump to the carb which can be purchased from SKIDIM https://skidim.com/fuel-line-pcm-302-351-ford.html.
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92 SN - Owned since 93
99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
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desertskier
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 7:07pm |
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I wouldn't waste the money having a dealer rebuild that carb. You can buy a new one for probably close to what your dealer is going to charge to rebuild that one. Even if your not mechanically inclined it is extremely easy to swap out the carb. Just four bolts, the linkage and the fuel line.
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92 SN - Owned since 93
99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
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Jonny Quest
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Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2840 |
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 7:20pm |
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+1 what Desert said.
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 7:31pm |
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Yes that’s very good advice.
Appreciated |
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Rene Wittmer
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Faceplant
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Joined: July-27-2013 Location: Otter Lake , Mi Status: Offline Points: 403 |
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 9:27pm |
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I swapped to a Quickfuel and my carburetor problems were solved. Like mentioned earlier- very easy swap.
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Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6.
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 9:29pm |
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May I ask, what is quick fuel?
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Rene Wittmer
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Faceplant
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 9:33pm |
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Quickfuel is a brand of carburetor that many use to replace Holly carbs. Very user friendly.
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Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6.
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Hysteria
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 9:33pm |
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Quick Fuel is a line of Holley carbs
Edit: beat me to the punch |
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 9:37pm |
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Got it.
Big thanks |
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Rene Wittmer
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Jonny Quest
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Posted: June-13-2021 at 11:39pm |
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For your viewing pleasure: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/carburetors/marine_carburetors/parts/M-600
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-14-2021 at 7:47am |
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Thank you. Pricing looks very good too.
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Rene Wittmer
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: June-14-2021 at 9:45am |
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Why are the Quick Fuel carbs so much cheaper than the standard Holleys?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Jonny Quest
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Posted: June-14-2021 at 9:55am |
William: Interesting question. Here is my "take" on the situation... QuickFuel Technologies (QFT) was started by ex-Holley engineer, Marvin Benoit, who wanted to build a better carburetor. It is my understanding that Marvin went to Holley management about upgrading certain Holley products with the many useful upgrades now found on the QFT line. It appears that Holley management said "NO", so Marvin left Holley in 1997 and started QFT. The QFT designs are based on tried-and-true Holley models but with some nice improvements, enhancements and innovations. Because QFT didn't have the same corporate structure as Holley, they were able to offer a better product at equal-to or better-than pricing. Holley eventually realized their mistake and High Performance Industries (Holley) purchased QFT in 2012. Now that Holley owns the QFT brand it would make for some awkward questions and answers for customers who have purchased either brand to see Holley start moving prices around. I believe that, eventually, QFT prices will start to climb and eventually equal or exceed the Holley equivalent. That's just my 2 cents... JQ
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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KENO
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Posted: June-14-2021 at 1:34pm |
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It might have something to do with who has more parts sourced from and machined in that big country across the Pacific
They may be headquartered in Kentucky, but................do all those parts come from here in the US for either outfit?
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-17-2021 at 10:03pm |
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First and foremost,
Thank you all for your insight and knowledge. So I brought my Nautique to my dealer (has done my servicing for the last 17 years) and to be frank , the dealer is not too keen to diagnose the old 92. Basically gave me the speech, "Well you know it's an old boat and could be this, could be that ......" So I have decided to do it myself with a very good friend of mine who has a lot of knowledge who is a retired Auto Mechanic who worked on Camaro's with Holley Carbs etc. So I want to make sure I order the right parts and if someone could just respond if what I am purchasing would work. I would puchase the Quick Fuel M-Series 600CFM Marine Carburator -4160 I also am going to get rid of the Pro-Tec and purchase the DUI Marine Distributor Red for Ford 351 Windsor 314-M35820RD. I picked this instead of the PROTEC RETRO FORD 351 Distributor KIT LH as there are fewer parts and looks a lot simpler to install. Is there anything I need to puchase? Spark plug cables? etc. Your opinion is really apprecited. Thank you |
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Rene Wittmer
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KENO
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Posted: June-18-2021 at 6:07am |
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The carburetor and distributor you mention work
You'll need a new fuel line since the old one won't reach the new, different bowl fitting location.
Here's a quote from a recent thread
You'll also most likely need to either get a new flame arrestor for the carburetor or space your old one up a little or dimple the bottom to clear the external float adjusters on the QF carburetor. As far as plug wires, most people get new ones, some use pre made and some get a kit that lets you trim to your preferred length and then crimp the ends on one end. The distributor number you gave is from the Jeg's catalog(with the 314 in front of the DUI part number) and has a wait of 4 to 6 weeks before shipping, but so does most every other place selling one right now it seems. You might be waiting for about half a Canadian summer for the distributor.
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rwittmer
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Posted: June-18-2021 at 7:43am |
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Thank you very much. I checked on the HOLLEY website and they have the distributor in stock.
"MSD FORD 351C-460 READY-TO-RUN MARINE DISTRIBUTORReady-to-run distributors include a built-in ignition module. No MSD Ignition control required" I'm now wondering if this model will work? If so I will order it today. |
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Rene Wittmer
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rwittmer wrote: