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Ticking noise from front of engine |
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Wilhelm Hertzog 
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 Topic: Ticking noise from front of enginePosted: March-28-2021 at 4:30am |
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I recently picked up a ticking noise from the front of my boat's engine. Sounds like it is coming from the water pump area, but I'm not 100% sure (have yet to put the screwdriver stethoscope to work). I was thinking of removing the belt from the water pump pulley and briefly running the motor to see if the noise disappears, but have yet to do that check.
Sound can be heard in this video: link. Any ideas as to what may be causing this noise?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: March-28-2021 at 7:19am |
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Sounds reasonable to take the belt off and see if the noise goes away. I'd take the belt off the alternator too.
Sorta maybe sounds like it could be a ball bearing that's not in the best shape. I'd spin the circulating pump by hand with the belts off and see if it "ticks" a little. There's always the chance of an exhaust manifold gasket leak which can sound like a variety of things while attempting to drive you out of your mind
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: March-31-2021 at 1:49am |
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No noise when I spin either the circulation pump or the alternator by hand with the belts off. I'll have to investigate further.
Exhaust manifold gasket leak is definitely a possibility, given the customisation that went into fitting my manifolds to the heads. Is there a better way to check for a gasket leak other than looking for some exhaust smoke leaking out when the engine is running?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: March-31-2021 at 6:24am |
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You could spin the raw water pump by hand but that would involve taking it off and pulling the housing and impeller off.
I suppose you have twice as many chances for an exhaust gasket leak with your spacers/adapters but after listening to the noise till it drove me half out of my mind, I'd probably look at the raw water pump first The remaining part of my mind says small exhaust leaks are tough. Have you checked that all of your mounting bolts are tight?
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SNobsessed
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Posted: March-31-2021 at 7:07am |
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Wouldn't an exhaust leak be consistent? The click sounds random. Sounds like bad bearing in RWP to me.
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td_in_nc
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Posted: March-31-2021 at 12:41pm |
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I had a ticking noise from the front of my engine that would increase in frequency with RPM. I took off the alternator and replaced the bearings as they were slightly worn. When I reinstalled the alternator, I still had the ticking sound. I ended up replacing the belts and the noise was eliminated. It was just a worn belt in my case.
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: April-01-2021 at 1:52am |
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The raw water pump pulley does have some 'free play' before it engages and starts spinning the impeller: link. Does that suggest the bearing is bad? The pulley spins smoothly without the impeller. I did notice a slight 'wobble' in the pulley while the engine was last running though.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: April-01-2021 at 5:22am |
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I'd say your "free play" is normal with a flexible impeller pump like that..
If the pulley is tight on the shaft and the key is a good fit in the keyway and the impeller is a good fit on the key, then that movement is the flexible impeller vanes. I don't think you ever mentioned whether the noise went away when you ran it for a quick check with the belts removed
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: April-01-2021 at 5:56am |
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I did not in fact run it for a quick check with the belts removed. I just spun the circulation pump by hand. I'll report back.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: April-05-2021 at 2:32pm |
This will have to wait for a while. I've already pulled the transmission from the boat, and running the motor without the exhaust hoses connected to the risers is so loud there's little hope of listening carefully for presence/absence of the ticking noise. I'll get back to this when I have my transmission back in the boat.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: April-11-2021 at 4:46pm |
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I did in fact run the engine briefly again today, and could not hear the ticking noise with none of the accessories (raw water pump, circulation pump, alternator) connected. Which makes the circulation pump the prime suspect. I pulled off the pump (which I was intending to do in any case, as I need to fit a fuel pump eccentric to the camshaft - as per my thread here). Here are some pictures.
   The front of the timing cover looks pretty nasty to me. So: 1. Does the corrosion on the front of the timing cover and back of the water pump cover plate suggest that the water pump has been leaking? Any way to check/confirm? 2. The circulation pump spins reasonably easily by hand when removed from the block, and there is no obvious free play in the bearing. But there is definitely a slight whining noise when the pump is rotated clockwise (i.e. the opposite direction of rotation to which it will normally be spinning on my reverse rotation engine). Does that noise suggest the bearing is bad, and potentially the source of the yet to be identified ticking noise? Any further tests/checks I can do on the pump bearing to confirm? 3. Anything else that looks odd or in need of attention in the water pump from the pictures? As always, thanks a lot for any help!
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: April-11-2021 at 7:45pm |
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That's an automotive circulating pump with a stamped steel impeller that you're also turning the opposite way it would turn in a car.
Since you have a closed cooling system, presumably with anti freeze in it, it would probably be a good idea to replace it since it's pretty ugly looking. Looks like a lot of years without anti freeze to me The typical PCM pump sold these days is bi directional and has a much beefier cast bronze impeller and a stainless steel backing plate. Here's a picture of a well aged marine pump with the backing plate off. If what you have is working and you don't have cooling issues, it would be your choice of what to do.  |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: April-12-2021 at 2:33am |
Well, now that you've mentioned it... I have of course been having cooling issues. Have been monitoring the situation carefully, and after doing more research on some of the car forums I concluded that my engine temps are probably on the upper limit of acceptable. But they have certainly been hotter than I was expecting with a 170 degree thermostat. Maybe this water pump is the root cause of that. I'll definitely be replacing. This one from Skidim is obviously the right one: link. Any other suppliers worth checking for the right pump at a good price? Nautiqueparts.com seems more expensive. I have a local reseller who can usually supply me with parts from Summit Racing at a decent price. This Sierra Marine pump looks like it is the same pump as the one Skidim sells, but at a slightly lower price: link. Any reason not to go with the Sierra Marine pump from Summit?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: April-12-2021 at 6:13am |
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The Summit ad does mention that it has a bi directional impeller so I think you'll be fine with that pump.
It's probably the same pump that SkiDim is selling I knew you had cooling issues in the past, didn't know if they had all been resolved though. Like you said, maybe this will help.
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OldSchoolBlue84
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Joined: December-02-2012 Location: Valparaiso, IN Status: Offline Points: 814 |
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Posted: April-13-2021 at 12:44am |
Just replaced mine last week and purchased at www.myinboardmarine.com since they had it in stock and shipped it quick. $119 plus shipping. They have 1 remaining. SKIDIM was on back order at the time. Good luck. |
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Kostas
1984 Ski Nautique 2001 |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: May-01-2021 at 5:04pm |
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Question on installing the timing cover: are the cork corner gaskets supposed to fit in between the block and the oil pan at their back edge, or do they just snug up against the block? If they have to go in between the block and oil pan it seems to require lowering the pan some. If they just snug up against the block, then they require some trimming to align with the oil pan to timing cover bolt holes.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-01-2021 at 6:12pm |
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They just snug up to the block and may take a little trimming to be just right, like you said.
Use your favorite sealer on the gaskets. Put it on heavy where the little pan corner gaskets butt up to the block and where they meet the neoprene seal. When it's time to put bolts in, put the 4 bolts from the oil pan to the bottom of the timing cover in just snug first, so that the pan's front neoprene seal goes in place correctly then put the rest in from the front, then tighten things up.. It's not as easy as doing it on an engine stand with the pan off, but it's not terrible either
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: May-02-2021 at 5:37pm |
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Below are pictures of the timing cover water passages (before any cleaning up), as well as the front of the timing cover after a bit of cleaning up. The area circled in red has definitely had some repair done to it: it seems there was some epoxy or similar used to rebuild material that had corroded away. The hole in the red circle has a helicoil inside it, and there was a mounting bolt screwed into it (which is not really required, as per this thread). This suggests to me there was a leak/corrosion problem in that area in the past.
   Questions: 1. Is the timing cover still serviceable, or should I replace? 2. Is a helicoil and mounting bolt in the other non-threaded hole a good idea to help avoid a leak, or is that just unnecessary effort?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-02-2021 at 8:39pm |
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Considering that a new one probably isn't available and they cost 800 bucks years ago, I think it's serviceable as long as the gasket surfaces are good They look a little rough but workable in the pictures.
The helicoil............not required but couldn't hurt.
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Gary S
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Posted: May-02-2021 at 9:09pm |
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Michigan Motors has them new for 300,which is still to much for me and then shipping and customs yikes! They come up used every so often if you decide yours is unserviceable.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352101911892?hash=item51fae8cd54:g:VE8AAOSwd4tTrc8f
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KENO
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Posted: May-03-2021 at 7:44am |
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I guess the 800 bucks in their price list must have included the obligatory PCM markup on the original Ford price
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: May-03-2021 at 5:21pm |
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I intended to fit the speedi sleeve included in the Fel-Pro gasket kit I'm using to the harmonic balancer, but I'm not sure if there is already a sleeve fitted to the balancer which should be removed first. The shiny snout (with black wear lines from the seal lip) certainly looks much newer than the rest of the balancer, and the new sleeve doesn't look like it will fit over the snout without a serious amount of heat and/or coaxing. Pictures of the balancer:
  So can anyione advise me as to whether: 1. That is indeed an existing sleeve on the snout of the balancer, and 2. If it is, whether it should be removed before installing the new sleeve, or whether the new sleeve should be fitted over the old one. Thanks as always for any guidance! |
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-03-2021 at 8:02pm |
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If you measure the diameter, you should know if it's the original shaft or has a speedi sleeve over it.
The original diameter is about 1.875 inches and with a National brand speedi sleeve, it's about 1.900 inches. I don't think it's a sleeve, but that's just me thinkin' If it is a sleeve, you'll have to take it off before putting a new one on. |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 3:23am |
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Another little hiccup: getting the new timing set sprockets on to the camshaft and crankshaft. The old sprockets came off easily enough (cam sprocket needed a bit of prying to get it sliding off, crank sprocket I could slide off by hand), but the new ones are very tight. The crank sprocket I can only get on by hand to this point (and yes, I did apply assembly lube to the sprocket and crank):
 The cam sprocket I reckon I'll be able to draw in by tightening down the cap screw that holds everything in place on the camshaft. I can't imagine that this will require so much force as to risk damaging the camshaft's internal threads. But it seems the crank sprocket will require either heat to expand it and allow it to slide all the way in, or some gentle tapping with a suitably sized piece of pipe to drive it all the way in. Any suggestions as to the best route to follow?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 6:13am |
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Have you taken the key out to see if the sprocket will slide all the way on?
You might need to clean up the key and the shaft a bit to let it go on easily
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 5:05pm |
Make that exactly 1.900 inches - at least in my case. So best way to remove the old sleeve? Heat it up an hope it slides off with some prying? Carefully cut through it with a hacksaw blade? Seeing that the balancer snout will again be sleeved, I don't imagine a few scuff marks on the snout itself from a wayward saw tooth or two will be the end of the world? |
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 5:38pm |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: May-05-2021 at 5:37pm |
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Combination of heat, peening and wire cutters got the old sleeve off. Balancer is sleeping in the freezer in preparation for installation of the new sleeve.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: May-07-2021 at 4:46pm |
Said key doesn't want to come out without a fight. The parts manual diagram suggests it is a semi-circular woodruff key, so if I hit down on one end with a punch or such like, the other end should pop up and out, right? Or is there a better way to get the key out?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: May-07-2021 at 5:08pm |
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Don't try to "seesaw" the key. Using a punch, just tap it on one end parallel to the shaft and it should come out.
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Wilhelm Hertzog wrote: