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Jabsco RWP and Timing Set replacement |
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samudj01 
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 Topic: Jabsco RWP and Timing Set replacementPosted: March-22-2021 at 4:18pm |
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My jabsco 17410 gave up on me recently. It is cracking internally which I believe to have made it lose suction and then melt the impeller. Specifically the green plastic housing is the issue. Is there a replacement housing? I’m not worried about it looking the same...just fitting and not having to buy a new $400 pump. Or is there a source to replicate out of alum or other? Duane? I have two of these pumps and both green plastic housings are shot.
If not, is the Sherwood g21 the best replacement? Thanks, David |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
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Posted: March-22-2021 at 9:00pm |
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The G21 Sherwood has been used by a fair number of people, some have cut the bracket to make mounting the pump to the bracket easier if the bracket completely surrounds the pump.
Otherwise you have to take the pulley off and mount the pump, then install the pulley at least on a Commander 351 that I'm familiar with, not familiar with the bracket setup on your 302 Commander, but it may be the same or maybe this is your 302 Crusader, so it might be different. Some altering of the spacing of the bracket from the engine may be necessary too, for belt alignment. So, it could take some "rigging" but should be doable. If you're thinking about a new Sherwood, you should at least think about a cheap Korean knockoff from the DJ pump company that's more corrosion resistant because the bearing housing is made of bronze instead of cast iron like the Sherwood.. All the other parts interchange Here's a link to the pump on EBAY, I've bought a couple from the outfit in the link and they've worked well, with about 100 hours on each pump this past summer and no issues.. |
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samudj01
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Posted: March-25-2021 at 4:28pm |
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To follow up on my initial question...is this pump housing dead? My theoretical fix...I could chip out the gouged plastic (pic 1) and fill w epoxy and then smooth the entire inside (note the crack forming in pic 2 also). Would I need to heat or sand to remove the melted on black rubber (2nd pic)?
OR is this thing dead. Pics below. Please give me an opinion.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
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Posted: March-26-2021 at 2:36pm |
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I see that you've expanded your quest to FB for that one elusive person who's gonna say "sure glue it and give it a whirl"
Just to save you some time, I'll say it, but I'm a backyard hack who would have no problem trying it just to see what would happen  You'll probably have to figure out what the plastic is and what will bond to it. I'd guess it's a phenolic type material like carburetor spacers are made of. I'd probably get the trusty Swiss Army Knife out to get rid of the rubber. It looks like a bit of a "rig" to begin with since that looks like some clear plastic tubing on one of the ports so you could use 1 inch hose on one side and 1/1/4 inch hose on the other.(old backyard hack maneuver) What do you have to lose besides a little time, effort and cooling water? Or you could do a Google search for Jabsco 17410-0000 and find a place that has one in stock, there seem to be some out there. Lots of places say "out of stock" but not all of them. Disclaimer................ I never claimed to be smart or anything even remotely close It looks like this goes to your 78 Commander from the above pictures
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fanofccfan
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Joined: December-13-2009 Location: North Bend NE Status: Offline Points: 1721 |
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Posted: March-27-2021 at 11:42am |
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I did try to glue mine and it was an utter failure! I did not research anything about it though. Just tried JB weld. Then sought out a replacement pump and was back in business. Mine had the exact hose on the intake to accept a 1-1/4” inlet as that was the size of the cooler out hose. I thought mine was hacked together sometime in its life but that must have OEM!
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2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski
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fanofccfan
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Posted: March-27-2021 at 11:47am |
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I also must point out that Tim Morfoot answered the FB post with a reassuring “yes we can fix it” and I am certain he can but I could not. After having him piece together an air scoop of mine-I know he has the skills for said project! Thanks again Morfoot!
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2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski
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samudj01
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Posted: March-28-2021 at 3:48pm |
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Working with some older pumps we had in the parts bin. Our current setup has a 7” pulley. We may go back with a 6”. Will that affect the cooling? Replacement is a nice Sherwood.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: March-28-2021 at 4:02pm |
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David,
A smaller sheave will speed up the pump RPM's. How this affects the cooling is tough to answer. You would need to look at the original pump RPM/GPM specs and compare it to the replacement pump RPM/GPM specs. I would just try the 6" and see what happens. Typically our RWP systems are more than adequate and dump excess out the exhaust. Why the 6"? Clearance?
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samudj01
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Posted: March-28-2021 at 4:46pm |
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6” is on a Sherwood pump. Can’t get it off. Just tried a bearing puller. No luck. You know how it is on there. Our 7” pulleys have a key and set screws. Got them off.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
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Posted: March-28-2021 at 5:27pm |
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Are you taking the pulley off because you want to.... or do you need to do it to install the pump in the bracket that encircles the pump and the only way to install the pump to the bracket is with the pulley off unless you cut the bracket?
They're a pretty tight press fit on the later Sherwood pumps. Older ones like in the picture had a keyway, key and set screw. I've used a hydraulic press, supporting the hub near the shaft so you don't press against the pulley itself and bend it. Going back on was a case of heating the pulley for a while and slipping it on the shaft, pretty much like installing a coupler on a straight prop shaft, but somewhat less heat. 4th post down in the link below fanofccfan tells how he did his replacement Here's a picture of the bracket that encircles the pump, maybe yours is different  |
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samudj01
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Posted: March-28-2021 at 7:29pm |
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Yes. We were looking to take the pulley off to:
1) get the bracket on and 2) maybe put the larger pulley on. That said, it was on good. We felt the bearing puller was about to do damage. Heat would be the next try. We decided to mod the bracket a bit and just need a new hole in it. I’ll get it on the drill press tomorrow maybe. The 6” should spin it more and it doesn’t look to need shimming at all. Impeller is coming tomorrow with new o ring and gasket. Hoping to get it on the boat for Easter weekend. |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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samudj01
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Posted: April-06-2021 at 5:55pm |
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Done with one issue and caused another...
First: Cut our RWP bracket and drilled a new hole to accept an older Sherwood that we had on the parts table. Popped in a new impeller and gasket and we are back! Ran it and temp was nice. Yes, a little backyard hackery on the bracket but oh well. Second: We created an issue when we took the old RWP off. We sheared a bolt. Pics show which one as it is missing. Hadn't mentioned it bc we thought we would use an extractor to get out the ~1" that sheared off. We don't have a long enough extractor though. I will lead off with the fact that we want to fix this right and aren't running the boat other than our test until fixed. This bolt seems to be important as it seals the housing. It also provides extra support for the RWP/RWP bracket to reduce vibration. Any ideas on getting it out? It is deep. Our other thought is to drill and tap a new shallower bolt hole. The engine/block looks to have enough meat to move to a 7/16 or 1/2.    |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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Gary S
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Posted: April-06-2021 at 11:14pm |
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Are you talking about this bolt?
 If so here is what your up against - that bolt broke off in the block and you have the thickness of the timing cover and about 5/16" of the circulating water pump. Your probably going to have to pull the front of the engine off- dampner,water pump,bolts that go into the timing cover on the front edge of the oil pan,timing cover etc and go from there.  |
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KENO
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 6:56am |
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Dave
If it's the long bolt that Gary mentions, just convince yourself that you need a new timing set and when you're doing that job you'll have unobstructed access to the broken bolt when the timing cover is off. if you need any help in the "convincing" department, with a 78 engine, unless the timing set has been replaced sometime in the past, you have a good chance of having a cam gear that's aluminum with nylon coating on the teeth and it eventually starts losing the nylon, makes the timing erratic and leaves little chunks of nylon in the oil pan. Not a terribly hard job in the boat, you'll have a new timing set with all metal teeth and be able to get at the broken bolt remains. |
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samudj01
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 7:56am |
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This sounds awesome! And yes it is that bolt. I’ll look around for a timing set...any recommendations? Also are there gaskets we need to have on hand to replace. From some videos I see on a bronco we will need engine rebuild lube and spare oil to drench the timing set.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 8:41am |
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Here's an example of a timing chain gasket set, it has all the gaskets you need, including water pump and fuel pump gaskets. Your timing cover front seal is rotation specific so the one in an automotive set will be backwards, but you can get one separately. Here's an example of a good timing set, your year most likely has a 2 piece fuel pump eccentric, but you can do some reading about eccentrics and if you take the fuel pump off, you can use a long screwdriver to see if you have a 1 or 2 piece ( or take things apart and verify before going to the parts store. Your favorite local parts store should be good for everything but the timing cover RR seal. A harmonic balancer removal/installation tool comes in handy also, to prevent damaging the crankshaft threads.
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KENO
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 12:05pm |
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There a lots of pretty much universal harmonic balancer pullers that will work good and in the link is one example of a Ford harmonic balancer installation tool. With the puller, you want a good cone shaped piece on the end so you don't mess up the threads The installation tool in the link has the right threads for your crankshaft. |
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Gary S
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 12:57pm |
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No need to buy that tool though,O'Reilly's Auto parts etc rents them cheap
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samudj01
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 6:15pm |
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If we wanted to replace the bolts while we were at it, what would be the go to? Stainless? Zinc, grade 5 or regular? Also, any torque specs for the bolts or a good site with this info. I’ve watched a few YouTube’s and no mention of torque.
Where to get the ccw seal and what are we looking for in regards to two part eccentric? I want to have the parts to fix next time I go to the lake. Would summit have these too? If so I can do one large order. Or should we take apart one weekend and then buy parts and put together the next weekend? This prob won’t be fun but I’m looking forward to learning. Once back together I assume we will have to time as the new timing chain will be tight? |
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 7:25pm |
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Here's a link to the seal at SkiDim Here's a picture of the one piece and 2 piece eccentrics. 2 on the left 1 on the right  If you want to find out before disassembling everything, take the fuel pump off and with a long screwdriver push up on the bottom of the eccentric. If there's no play..............it's one piece If there's some play........it's a two piece If you want to gamble, you figure it's a 2 piece eccentric because Ford went to the 2 piece in the early 70's on the car engines. it was a money saving deal or a friction saving improvement depending on who you talk to. As far as the bolts, there are a whole bunch of different lengths, so keep track of what goes where and I've had good luck with Grade 8 and don't forget the anti seize. You'll have to check the timing and maybe reset it. Torque values............buried in the chart in the link, you may find other values in different places, but they should be relatively close Or click the below link and go to page 8-07 of the Ford manual from the CCF reference section |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: April-13-2021 at 6:11am |
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As I will also be pulling and reinstalling my harmonic balancer shortly: this installation tool is very reasonably priced on Amazon. Looks like it should work for a Ford 351 as well, or am I missing something?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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KENO
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Posted: April-13-2021 at 7:26am |
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I think you're missing nothing In the description in the link below, it says it has 5/8-18 threads on one end and 3/4-16 on the other end, making it a pretty clever "multi purpose goes both ways" tool You'd thread in the 5/8-18 end for your engine |
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samudj01
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Posted: April-18-2021 at 9:41pm |
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Got the timing cover loose. Ken, a few hits with a hammer and wood block and then back to the pry bar and the timing cover broke loose. Ordered a timing chain and gasket kit today. Also picked up some permetex 2. Ordered the RH seal from ski dim yesterday. Is a new eccentric necessary. Looks like a part that would last? Also, is engine assembly lube needed or is oil fine for this install? Hoping to have it all and install next weekend.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
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Posted: April-18-2021 at 10:10pm |
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No need for a new eccentric and as far as assembly lube, you don't really need that either, engine oil is just fine.
2 piece eccentric in there?
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samudj01
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Posted: April-18-2021 at 11:12pm |
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We shall see. I got the timing cover loose but didn’t take it off. Just wanted to make sure it would come off for next weekend.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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samudj01
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 4:28pm |
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It is a 2 piece eccentric. Worked a bit today. The sheared bolt proved to be tougher than we hoped. Tried an extractor and couldn’t get it out. Then drilled most out and used. Tap to get the rest and clean out the old threads. Put the timing chain and eccentric on. Next week we will button it all up. Thanks for the help so far!
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 5:48pm |
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David,
Getting broken bolts out sure can be a problem. You probably lost some threads by resorting to drilling and tapping so is there enough depth to get a longer bolt in there?
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samudj01
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 9:42pm |
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I’ll take the next length bolt too and see how it works.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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samudj01
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Posted: May-02-2021 at 4:47pm |
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Well. Good and bad. Put it all back together and the engine fired up. Used permetex 2 and fel pro gaskets and it leaks bad. Think the water is leaking out of the small gap on on the bottom of the circ pump casting. The gap looks to be original. Any thoughts. Our thoughts are to take the circ pump housing off and try to clean the surfaces better. They are pretty clean. All bolts on the pump are new and torqued to 13.5ft lbs. We went ahead and timed it even though it was leaking. Was off a bit bc the new chain is nice and tight. Timed it and she seemed to run well but with the leak we didn’t go over idle at the dock.
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78 Ski Tique, 72 Skier w/302's, 93 SN w/351 & 17 GS22 w/zr409
Previous - 99 Sport Nautique w/GT40 and 87 Martinique w/351 |
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KENO
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Posted: May-02-2021 at 8:44pm |
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The gap is on the timing cover to tell you that you're leaking water from the back cover of the pump or from the pump discharge port(s) to the timing cover.
Maybe bad surfaces where the pump back cover contacts the timing cover at those ports
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KENO wrote: