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No spark / running out of ideas

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Jimscorpsewhale View Drop Down
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Utter failure. The engine speed will intermittently increase like it’s trying to start. I put gas down the primary jets three or four times. I am still getting a spark per the inline checker. I plugged the vacuum port.

Not too sure where to go from here. I ordered an adapter for the compression tester that looks like it will work with the gt40p heads. I’ll get some numbers if it works.

Any other ideas are welcome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 2:39am
Dang it...

If it were me, I'd remove the right side valve cover. (when looking at the engine from the rear of the boat).

Then remove the spark plug from cylinder #1.  Rotate the engine manually and watch cylinder #1 valve rockers operating. When the piston is at the top of the cylinder after watching the intake rocker close (the rocker comes back up) you are at Top Dead Center at the firing position. Verify TDC with your timing pointer and dampener markings. Then pop the distributor cap and verify the rotor is pointing toward cylinder #1. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 7:16am
Do you happen to know if on the gt40p if it’s the front or rear valve that’s the intake?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 10:16am
Intake is at the front of the head. The exhaust port will align with the exhaust valve (rocker arm).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 12:48pm
Makes sense. Should have been obvious....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slydog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 1:53pm
Many years ago a reputible marine shop in Florida sent me home with an incorrect starter for my 1988 SN. The '88 has a RH rotation engine as designated on the engine nameplate. I had limited tools and was working in a hotel parking lot. The boat would not run after the new starter was installed and it turns out I did not get the CCW starter I needed. I had similar syptoms to what you are describing here. "The engine speed will intermittently increase like it’s trying to start.".  My engine would intermittently fire on a cylinder but not run.

Having said that, it certainly sounds like a timing issue which could be caused by several situations. 
Incorrect starter
Distributor installation or not for a RH rotation engine.
...etc.....

These items have been discussed previously and just need to hammer out which.
Somewhere I think you also talked about a compression test. Did I miss the results?

You have fuel. You have spark. Need to ensure the spark is in time with compression and  BANG! 


Always looking for glass on the lake...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 4:24pm
Sly

He was asked about a compression test but hasn't done one because he needs the right adapter for his gt40 heads. so you didn't miss any results

He has a RH engine and it's turning the right direction which he verified by the distributor rotor going the right way when the engine is cranking over and he says he's using the right firing order and the wires are arranged the right way going around the cap and he knows how the cylinders are numbered. You can verify what he's written earlier in the thread.

He can't post a picture or video here for let's say technical reasons, but he sent me a super slo mo video of his timing light flashing with the timing at 6 degrees before TDC with the engine turning the right way, but that doesn't tell him it's on the compression stroke. People have been taking his word for that with his description of how he checked.

If he does what Mourning Wood said, at least it'll tell if he's at 6 degrees before TDC on the compression stroke or maybe he'll find he's 180 out which sounds like it might be the case but he said it's on the compression stroke a couple of times already with a good explanation of how it was done.

So for now the mystery continues 

At least he's fixed a few issues along the way

PS I guess you probably weren't real satisfied with that reputable marine shop Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 7:50pm
I am going to do what morning wood suggested this weekend as long as work doesn’t beat me to bad.

Just to be sure.

So pull the valve cover and spin the engine by hand.
The #1 intake should open and right as it finished closing I’ll make sure that the pointer is lined up with tdc on the balancer and pop the cap and confirm the rotor is pointed at the number one cylinder.

I drained the gas today.... I put some stabil in it when I got the boat but I’m not sure how long the previous owner had the fuel there. Also I drug it home six hours in the remnants of a hurricane so maybe it did get some water in it.

I got a new fuel filter on the way as well. Can’t hurt at this point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by Jimscorpsewhale Jimscorpsewhale wrote:


The #1 intake should open and right as it finished closing I’ll make sure that the pointer is lined up with tdc on the balancer and pop the cap and confirm the rotor is pointed at the number one cylinder.

Sounds like a plan...

Remember, when the intake rocker has finished closing, the piston will still be down somewhere near the bottom of the cylinder. You'll have to rotate the engine some more (the compression stroke) and bring the piston up to the top of the cylinder before the pointer aligns with TDC. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 9:04pm
Is there anyway to assess the height of the piston through the spark plug hole?

In theory the balancer could be off right? If it had moved then even if I am on the compression stroke then maybe I’m not actually at tdc when the mark says I am...

I wish I had confirmed it was spot on when I had the head off. Lessons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MechGaT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2021 at 9:08pm
And remember, the rotor should point to the post the #1 spark plug wire is then placed on. That post could be any physical direction. Sometimes that confuses folks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MourningWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2021 at 12:52am
Originally posted by Jimscorpsewhale Jimscorpsewhale wrote:

Is there anyway to assess the height of the piston through the spark plug hole?

With the spark plug out, of course, you can slide something into the hole and let the piston push it up and out as it comes up.

A long soda straw works very well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2021 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by MourningWood MourningWood wrote:

Originally posted by Jimscorpsewhale Jimscorpsewhale wrote:

Is there anyway to assess the height of the piston through the spark plug hole?

With the spark plug out, of course, you can slide something into the hole and let the piston push it up and out as it comes up.

A long soda straw works very well.

With the plug hole pretty much horizontal, you're not gonna get anything in there that will rise and fall with the piston. it's easier to look in the plug hole with a little flashlight and you can see the top of the piston as it's getting to TDC.

Logically if the boat ran OK before the work, the harmonic balancer didn't suddenly decide to fail while it was sitting there doing nothing, so if your finger over the hole method says you're at TDC on the compression stroke, pulling the valve cover and watching the #1 valves won't really tell you much else but it'll be good verification..

Like M/W said the intake is closed a long ways before TDC, so if you do pull the valve cover, start with the harmonic balancer about 180 degrees before TDC and slowly turn it, with your finger over the plug hole, you'll see the intake valve go shut pretty quickly, then you'll feel the pressure on your finger since both the intake and exhaust are now shut and the piston is rising and then stop rotating when the pointer says you're at TDC

Now if you continue to turn the engine over and watch the #1 intake and exhaust, you'll see nothing happen with either valve for a long time and then eventually the exhaust valve will start to open after maybe 135 degrees or so of additional movement on the harmonic balancer.

A combination of looking at the piston through the plug hole to see that it's fully up, the pointer saying you're at TDC and both valves being shut, followed by observing the exhaust valve motion described above says you were at TDC on the compression stroke.

BTW, If the intake starts opening very shortly after passing TDC, then you were at TDC on the exhaust stroke, but if you felt the puff with your finger while doing the rotation, this shouldn't be the case.

Hope this doesn't confuse you.

Also it's a lot easier to get the valve cover off and back on again if you take the exhaust manifold off because of one pesky bolt on the valve cover (the middle lower one) that's hard to access (but not impossible)

Some people have done it with weird combinations of universals, extensions etc but since you just put the exhaust manifold on, it should come off pretty easily
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wetskier2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2021 at 5:17pm
compression tester screwed into the #1 plug hole works as good as a thumb...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2021 at 5:37pm
Keno

That all makes sense thanks.

I guess it wasn’t that I thought the balancer failed while it was sitting there. I was just think that if it had been rotated or something previously that the marks would be inaccurate. Or is that not possible? When I had the head off if I had looked at the balancer I could have confirmed the tdc Mark was in line with the pointer while I was sure the piston was up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2021 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by wetskier2000 wetskier2000 wrote:

compression tester screwed into the #1 plug hole works as good as a thumb...

But, but, but thumbs and fingers are much more readily available and Jim doesn't have an adapter to screw his gauge into the spark plug hole.Wink

Jim 

If you look into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, you'll be able to see when the piston is at the top of it's stroke and then look at the harmonic balancer and see if the timing marks say you're at TDC.

If you have gt40P heads the angle of the plug hole makes it easier to look in than if you have gt40 heads

Super precise.............no, but it'll tell you if the balancer has any issues like the outer ring being rotated..

It might take a little practice looking in to see the piston and know when it reaches the top of it's stroke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2021 at 1:15pm
Well I found chocolate milk under the valve cover. I’ll pull it back apart and find where the leak is. Anything specific way I need to clean up the heads?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2021 at 3:23pm
I pulled the intake and heads off. I didn’t see the obvious point of failure.

So I hope the reason there was water in the oil is that I did a bad job with the gaskets.

I drained the block prior to the freeze. I guess my biggest concern is that the block cracked in the freeze. I don’t see anything obvious but I’m not sure that just a visual means anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 7:21am
What's that old saying about a silver lining in every dark cloud?

At least now you can see the #1 piston at TDC and look at your timing marks. Whether it's at TDC on compression or exhaust doesn't matter, the marks should say you're at zero degrees.

Since all the oil in the engine must be "chocolate milk", you'll have some flushing to do with multiple oil changes when things are back together and running.

I'd drain the oil now and change the oil filter, then put in some cheap oil, pouring it all over the lifter valley area since the manifold and heads are off.

Knowing if you have a bunch of extra "oil" draining out would help quantify the size of the leak. (Like if you drain out 7 or 8 quarts for example, it's a good sized leak)

Since the heads are off, kerosene/diesel fuel and a brush will do a good job of getting rid of the emulsion on the heads. When clean, blow  dry with compressed air.

Not knowing the history of the heads, were they from a rebuilder or from a junkyard?

Did you use some RTV around the water ports on the intake manifold gaskets? Some instructions say not to, but it doesn't hurt to do it and a lot of times prevents a leak from the cooling system right into the lifter valley area.

Did you drain the exhaust manifolds too when you drained the engine  block?

Are all of your freeze/core/casting plugs in place in the block?. There are 6 in the block, 3 on each side and the one right above the starter has some water behind it even when you drain the engine. If a plug is popped, you may also have freeze damage internally. A good inspection of the lifter valley area when all the emulsified oil is gone may show a crack.

Let's hope it was a bad job on the gaskets like you said Wink

There could be more questions as you look at things 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 7:50am
Yeah I did get to see that the mark is dead on at tdc...

I drained everything yesterday. Not a ton more volume. I filled a gallon jug and had less than half in second one. I left it open to drain overnight and I’ll look again today.

I cleaned the heads up pretty well yesterday. I took the lifters out an wiped everything down. The lifter valley is pretty clean. I’ll give it close look.

I’ll go ahead an put oil in it again today. I did look at the plugs yesterday and didn’t see any popped but I’ll double check today. There was definitely water in the jacket back by the starter. I thought that was my fault.   

I didn’t drain the exhaust manifolds.

I used the felpro marine gaskets with rtv at around the water ports. I used the corks with rtv at the front and rear seals.

The heads are from bishop engine out of Dallas.

Cheap oil of choice? Would you base the number of changes on how the oil looks after a short use?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 8:14am
Sounds like you're making progress

The exhaust manifold(s) could have cracked from freezing

An easy test would be to support the manifold in it's normal position with a garden hose hooked to the inlet and let the water flow out the normal exit. While you're doing this look for water leaking out of the 4 exhaust inlets (any obvious leaks externally will show up too)

Wal Mart Supertech  15w40 diesel oil would be a good choice. Change till it looks good after a short use when everything is running..

It's cheap in price only Wink

A big bead of RTV in place of the corks works good

Was that a gallon and a half of oil that you drained? If so, you have a pretty good sized leak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 9:53am
Yeah it’s probably a little less than a gallon and a half in total drained from the oil pan.

There isn’t any oil fouling the water in the block... is that a hopeful sign?

I’ve been thinking about it. I think after the freeze I have had the hose plugged in but not on. I was just going to turn it on if it started to run.

I think the only time I put water pressure on it was prior to the freeze so maybe that’s when it failed.

I’ll check the exhaust manifolds to be sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 12:09pm
I hooked the manifolds to the eater hose with an extra piece of 1” hose I had. I ran it up to full blast and nothing from the exhaust ports or anywhere else water shouldn’t come out. Maybe I dodged that problem.

Second bit. At the back of the manifolds there are plugs. They don’t look like they have been pulled in a long time. Is that the best place to drain from or do you pull the inlet hose? My other boat has small hose at the back where the plugs are on this one. That’s how I draw those.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 1:02pm
James,
At the manifolds aft end bottom is the drain plug you want to pull. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tryathlete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 1:04pm
I’d like to think the manifolds were the problem. That water had to get in there somehow. Leaking head gasket will be discovered by examining each cylinder which I think you may have done already. Intake manifold leak could be it given you replaced the heads. You’ll figure it all out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Jimscorpsewhale Jimscorpsewhale wrote:

I hooked the manifolds to the eater hose with an extra piece of 1” hose I had. I ran it up to full blast and nothing from the exhaust ports or anywhere else water shouldn’t come out. Maybe I dodged that problem.

Second bit. At the back of the manifolds there are plugs. They don’t look like they have been pulled in a long time. Is that the best place to drain from or do you pull the inlet hose? My other boat has small hose at the back where the plugs are on this one. That’s how I draw those.

You should pull those plugs now while the manifolds are off, and replace them with some brass ones if the ones in there are steel.

If you have oxy-acetylene torches hit the area around the plug with some heat and they'll come out a lot easier if they're being stubborn.

A Mapp gas torch works pretty good too. Or a friend or local shop with torches will do also.

You might find a bunch of corn flake sized rust chips inside the hole, so pick them out with a screwdriver, awl etc.

Some people will say to put a petcock drain in there, some won't because you'll never get those corn flakes out without pulling the petcock, so you might as well just use a plug. It's a 3/4 inch pipe plug that goes in the hole.

You'll get some flakes every year when you drain and probe them

That's the only spot that will empty the manifolds since they sit at about a 15 degree angle in your boat  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-07-2021 at 5:46pm
You might want to run a tap through the threads, if they are pitted.  3/4 pipe thread I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-12-2021 at 8:50pm
I going to start putting things back together tomorrow.

Thoughts on gaskets....

I have the felpros or I could use the ones that came with the edelbrock performer for the intake.

For the intake front and rear seal...

Corks + rtv or just rtv?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2021 at 7:51am
Pretty much your choice on the gaskets

Here's a link to an old thread with some info that might help


And here's a link to the Edelbrock instructions for your Performer manifold saying to use RTV and no cork


Generally RTV gets used without the cork on Aluminum manifolds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimscorpsewhale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-13-2021 at 8:53am
Yeah I saw the instructions for the manifold were rtv with no corks but I was just curious about people’s experiences on here.

I check the link thx.
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