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alternator/no spark help |
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MI-nick 
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Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 809 |
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 Topic: alternator/no spark helpPosted: September-07-2020 at 8:42pm |
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frustrating weekend. '88 Ski Nautique, PCM 351 Ford, Prestolite distributor with EI (converted before I bought the boat...maybe Pertronix?). This boat lives about 250 miles from me on a lift on a lake in northern MI. it used to be in my back yard at ford lake, but has been replaced with a '99 SAN so I see the '88 roughly every other weekend. Boat has run fine all summer and ran fin the last time I was up there a few weeks ago. I went to get it ready for wakeboarding saturday morning and opened the doghouse to find water a bit over the oil pan (bungee cord failure on the cover let some water in). I ran the bilge to pump it out. so far, so good. When I pushed the ignition breaker and turned the key, smoke started coming out of the alternator. I tried to start it anyway, which probably was a bad idea...anyway, it didn't start. I re-set the ignition breaker, removed the alternator, and went on a quest to find a new one. My first stop was the local car quest. They were really nice and told me my alternator was no longer available but was interchangeable with a Mando unit. They gave me a printout of said Mando and a phone # for a marina about 45 minutes away. The guy at the marina said he had a rebuilt unit from a mercruiser that seemed to match the printout from car quest (i emailed him many photos) and also what ski dim sells as a replacement. $200 later I was on my way back to the lake. i stopped where I had cell service for a bit more research and I was satisfied that the Mando unit would work IF I added a jumper wire form S to + which I made from 8Ga. copper. I replaced the alternator and boat just cranked. I verified ~10.5V at + side of coil and ~2.5V at - and also NO SPARK while cranking with a plug grounded to the block. It was getting late in the day so I went pontooning. The next morning I replaced the coil (i have a lot of spare parts up there and a wiring diagram but no internet...please forgive me for being a parts changer). Still nothing, but same voltage readings. Next I replaced coil/ignition module and added ballast resister (per new module instructions) with spares i bought in 2013 that I thought were correct. Anyway, still no spark. I should also say that when replacing the EI module, the paper gasket b/w cap and distributor was destroyed and I didn't have a spare...so there is no paper gasket there now. Below are photos of old/new alternator and EI setup. At least questions for you guys:
1) Is the rebuilt Alt + jumper wire OK? 2) Is my replacement EI compatable with my Prestolite distributor? 3) If the new EI is no good, what EI module/coil/resister combo do I need? 4) If the new EI is good, what is going on here? Sorry for the long read and THANKS!! Old Alt  New Alt with homemade jumper wire  1st coil replacement + old EI  Old EI module  New EI module and rotor  New EI setup  new EI wiring w/resistor  |
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10639 |
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 7:10am |
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Nick
Some people might call you a "parts changer", .......myself, I'd call you well prepared  I think your jumper on the alternator is just fine. That lets the alternator sense output voltage at the output of the alternator and lots of Mandos come with that jumper already installed. As far as the distributor, if the original module (it's a Prestolite module) was working, the voltage at the coil negative should have been fluctuating between around zero and 12 ish as you turned the engine over. You just had a steady reading so I think the module bit the dust. Your picture of the E Spark module with the kinda blurry rotor/shutter wheel in the background looks like you have the wrong rotor/shutter wheel for your distributor. You have a screw down cap Prestolite with a rotor that has a spring steel center contact and a fixed button at the coil terminal inside the cap. They contact each other to transmit the voltage and current The E Spark looks like the rotor is correct for an earlier clip down cap, where the rotor button in the center of the cap is spring loaded and contacts the flat metal piece at the center of the rotor. So what you end up with in your situation is a big air gap between the rotor and the center button and no spark will be making it to the plugs. Those Mallory rotor/shutter wheels are pretty much non existent for Prestolite distributors these days so finding the right one would be tough. The module is probably just fine, but the cap/ rotor mismatch is the issue. If you have a better picture of the rotor/shutter wheel that would help  It might be tough to visualize what I'm saying but I can post a few pictures later if needed to show what I mean about the mismatch |
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MI-nick
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Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 809 |
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 7:52am |
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Ken,
Thanks for the reply. Just as a point of clarification, the voltage I reported at the coil was only with key on...i didn't check while cranking as I didn't know what to look for. Sorry I don't have a better photo of the e spark rotor, but I can tell you the spring steel tab in the center is "flat" as opposed to the "angled up" tab on the old rotor. I'm almost certain I saw a witness mark on the e spark rotor after the initial trial...which would indicate contact...but i can't be certain that mark wasn't there initially...and it was a pretty faint mark if i remember correctly... Is that paper distributor cap gasket critical for this operation? Any idea what EI module/coil combo I need for this boat? I've researched quite a bit and am honestly more confused haha... |
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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KENO
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 7:58am |
If you decide you need a new electronic module to fit your distributor in the picture with the reluctor wheel and no points cam, the Pertronix part number is 1589 for the Ignitor kit or 91589 for the Ignitor2 kit. |
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KENO
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 9:15am |
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The paper gasket isn't necessary for proper operation.
It's there for marine spark proofing though so it's good to have one. If you're good, you can cut one out of thin gasket material
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MI-nick
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Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 809 |
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 9:58am |
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thanks a lot ken. regarding the EI module, I can find the part #'s you referenced easy enough...summit, jegs, etc...but, I also checked ski dim and see 2 options listed on the below page
skidim part # 100414 mentions "not for prestolite distributors with the original equipment conversion kits. These kits have a purple and black wire from the module with a trigger wheel pickup. use item # 60217" skidim item #60217 has no information other than "for Prestolite distributor with the OEM electronic conversion modules" confused because the old one did indeed have purple/black wires, but I don't think it's "OEM"? thoughts?
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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KENO
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 11:21am |
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Your old one is a Prestolite distributor with an OEM conversion kit from Prestolite that PCM sold, that's no longer available or alternately the whole distributor could have been replaced, PCM had a kit for that too. In either case, that's why you have the black and purple wires right now From SkiDim what you want is the 60217 kit also known as a Pertronix Ignitor 2 91589 kit. 60217 is just SkiDim's part number for the 91589 kit. You'll notice that the photos for the 60217 and 100414 kits look exactly alike, I'd say that SkiDIm has the wrong photo of the 60217 since the magnet ring is wrong. It's a good photo of a 100414 kit which is a Pertronix 91582 and not what you need. So 60217 from SkiDim or 91589 elsewhere gets you the same thing and is what you need I won't make any comments on pricing |
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MI-nick
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Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 809 |
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 1:57pm |
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ordered an ignitor II module (91589) and flamethrower II coil from Summit at lunch. unfortunately I have to wait a few weeks to confirm if it will work.
a couple more thoughts/questions 1) is it possible to install the module 180 deg "off" inside the distributor or does orientation not matter? 2) could the alternator failure and EI module failure be related...eg one caused the other? i think not and I think the only relation is that the factors which caused one (moisture, corrosion, short, bad luck) caused both? thanks again!
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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KENO
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Posted: September-08-2020 at 8:54pm |
The module and plate could be mounted 180 off, but I think when it's in your hands you'll see that the big sorta half circle cutout in the mounting plate lines up with the spot where the wires exit the housing. There's a good chance you'll have to adjust the timing to get it started, but I'd install it, try to start it, it might fire right up and adjust if necessary. I think the alternator failure could have caused the module failure. A voltage transient like a high voltage spike could have fried the electronics
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uncle-buck
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Joined: June-14-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 318 |
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Posted: September-09-2020 at 12:06am |
Not to rain on your parade or contradict Keno, but you may want to consider calling Pertronix tech support with the model number on your distributor and asking which kit will work best with it.
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KENO
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Posted: September-09-2020 at 5:30am |
That all sounds good in theory, but if his distributor originally had points in it and they were replaced with the PCM kit (which replaced the point cam with a reluctor wheel as part of the conversion), like mentioned earlier, giving them the model number would get him the wrong Ignitor 2 kit If the whole distributor was replaced at some point with the later one that had the Prestolite module as standard equipment, then the phone call would probably get him the right kit. The difference is the magnet assembly, one kit has an assembly that fits over the 8 legged reluctor wheel and the other has a magnet assembly that fits over a points cam..........and one won't fit in place of the other.
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KENO
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Posted: September-11-2020 at 7:50am |
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[QUOTE=MI-nick
Here's a picture of an old Mando that just came off a boat for comparison purposes. Same jumper setup  |
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MI-nick
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Joined: January-12-2009 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Status: Offline Points: 809 |
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Posted: September-12-2020 at 3:40am |
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thanks again ken.
ignitor II and flame thrower II arrived yesterday. the magnet ring has 8 "notches" that look like they are supposed to fit over the reluctor wheel so I think i got the right kit. unfortunately i have to wait two weeks before i can try it out. i'll be sure to post about how it all worked out.
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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MI-nick
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Posted: September-28-2020 at 6:28am |
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fired right up and ran great all weekend. thanks again Ken!
now looking into several related/secondary issues...i'll do a thorough search before posting a new topic... 1) i think the alternator pulley is wrong. belt was slipping/smoking at initial start up. i increased the tension and the slipping went away and seemed to be working fin (14.4V at battery while running)...but it looks wrong...belt looks too "deep" in the pulley 2) fuel gauge is not working. needle moves a tiny bit when the key is on, but basically reads empty (it's not) all the time 3) running temp was ~135-140 (temp at sender was same measured with laser thermometer). water was COLD for sure, but had been (and I think should be) running at 155 4) water is leaking into the boat. i see a small stream running along the outboard side of the starboard stringer and into the bilge. i'll look into that when I pull the boat in 2 weeks (exhaust hose, muffler, speedo balance tube?). not a ton of water, but fills up to the top of the bilge pump over night. 1 problem fixed and 4 new ones to work on...i don't think i'm doing this right...
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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KENO
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Posted: September-28-2020 at 6:43am |
I told ya' .............Uncle Buck got the bad coil and/or module. If you have an impact wrench you could swap pulleys from one alternator to the other. You could do it without the impact wrench but it's a lot easier with one. I'd probably check the ground back at the sender as a starting point to figure out the gauge problem. A bad ground will make it read low/empty. Could be other things, but start there
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MI-nick
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Posted: September-28-2020 at 8:02am |
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it ran better than it ever has, actually. there had been a very intermittent "miss" ever since I got the boat...went through just about everything except the ignition module and basically wrote it off as "whatever, boat basically runs fine"...looks like it was the module...which i didn't suspect because everything i've read about them says they usually don't intermittently fail, they just flat out fail...well...
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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uncle-buck
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Posted: September-28-2020 at 9:28am |
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Glad the new Pertronix module and coil worked for you.
Good luck getting the other issues resolved. |
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MrMcD
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Posted: September-28-2020 at 12:29pm |
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The carbureted boats run a 140 thermostat so that part is good. Congrats on fixing the engine.
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MI-nick
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Posted: September-28-2020 at 12:42pm |
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its a 143
...all summer (and the entire time i've owned the boat), the gauge has shown ~155...so not sure If I have a gauge issue now or maybe t-stat issue. i'm most concerned about the leak...at least it's a small leak...i'll come back for help if I can't get it figured out
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As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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MI-nick wrote: