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this boat may drive me to drinking...

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    Posted: September-06-2020 at 6:22pm
1990 Ski Nautique that I neglected and left alone for six years.

In the past five weeks, I have been paying lots of attention to her:

installed new battery
cleared fuel tank pickup tube
replaced fuel line
replaced carburetor
installed 143F PCM thermostat
reattached coaming pads
replaced water strainer gasket
replaced raw water pump impeller
replaced water pump and alternator v-belts
replaced trailer tire; balanced spare and placed it into service
applied teak cleaner and restorer to swim platform
installed Bearing Buddy bras on trailer
replaced fuel pump sight tube
replaced spark plugs
replaced distributor cap and rotor
replaced exhaust riser gaskets
changed transmission fluid
set ignition timing at 10 degrees BTDC
replaced ignition wires
replaced ignition coil
replaced exhaust manifold gaskets and bolts
checked cylinder compression
changed oil and filter; added Rislone engine treatment
installed 6.5 power valve in carb
adjusted carb floats to level
reset timing to 10 BTDC
rebuilt 1995 carburetor and installed new floats
checked distributor weights and springs
installed 1995 carburetor w 5.0 power valve
rechecked timing and advance

Took her out on the river today and she ran great for about 90 minutes. While cruising back to the marina at about 30 mph, the engine just stopped - like the throttle had been completely cut and the ignition switch turned off.

Was thinking perhaps the fuel tank pickup tube had gotten clogged so, when I got home, I disconnected the fuel line from the tank and put it into a 5 gal. can of fuel and ran it on the hose. Ran fine once the fuel pump got fuel to the carb.

Reconnected the fuel line to the tank and it ran fine there, too, for about five minutes.

Am wondering if there's debris in the tank that got sucked up into the fuel tank pickup tube and fell out during the drive home. Or if the fuel filter cartridge got clogged somehow. Or if the anti-siphon valve malfunctioned. 

Any other ideas?

The boat is equipped with a Prestolite distributor and Pertronix electronic ignition conversion kit.

Thanks




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2020 at 7:14pm
Did you check for spark out on the river right after it quit or did you pump the throttle and see if the accelerator pump was squirting gas into the primary throats?

Don't know how long it was from when it quit till you ran it again on the hose buty ou could have an ignition system issue related to heat and after the component cools off again, you have spark again till it heats up again and quits. It could be the coil or the ignition module for example or a mismatched coil and module or an electrical connection that needs cleaning..

The Pertronix haters will now line up to tell you what they think Wink

I think I'd go for a ride with the temporary tank hooked up, the timing light in the boat so if it quits you can pretty much instantly check for spark and either rule out a spark issue or confirm one.

If it doesn't quit on the temporary tank during the ride, then you know where to look (somewhere upstream of the pump). Make sure the temporary tank is vented so the fuel pump doesn't suck a vacuum in the tank and quit pumping.

Make small circles not too far from the launch ramp to minimize any paddling that might be necessary, and go upstream Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:27pm
How old is the fuel in your gas tank, 6 year old gas will not work.  It plugs everything up.
I am currently fixing a boat with only 2-3 year old gas that plugged up the injectors.  I did see you installed mostly the entire new fuel system but I did not see Drained the old fuel on your list.  
Old fuel does usually show up slowly with a lot of sputtering, yours seemed to be an instant crash so maybe the fuel was not your issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Did you check for spark out on the river right after it quit or did you pump the throttle and see if the accelerator pump was squirting gas into the primary throats?

Don't know how long it was from when it quit till you ran it again on the hose buty ou could have an ignition system issue related to heat and after the component cools off again, you have spark again till it heats up again and quits. It could be the coil or the ignition module for example or a mismatched coil and module or an electrical connection that needs cleaning..

The Pertronix haters will now line up to tell you what they think Wink

I think I'd go for a ride with the temporary tank hooked up, the timing light in the boat so if it quits you can pretty much instantly check for spark and either rule out a spark issue or confirm one.

If it doesn't quit on the temporary tank during the ride, then you know where to look (somewhere upstream of the pump). Make sure the temporary tank is vented so the fuel pump doesn't suck a vacuum in the tank and quit pumping.

Make small circles not too far from the launch ramp to minimize any paddling that might be necessary, and go upstream Wink


I did not check for spark or pump the throttle. Took about 90 minutes to get home. The coil is new and correctly matched with the module, according to SKIDIM. But it could have failed. Will take a spare coil next time out.

Good idea to take a temporary tank out for the next ride.

How do you check for spark using the timing light?

Thanks


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

How old is the fuel in your gas tank, 6 year old gas will not work.  It plugs everything up.
I am currently fixing a boat with only 2-3 year old gas that plugged up the injectors.  I did see you installed mostly the entire new fuel system but I did not see Drained the old fuel on your list.  
Old fuel does usually show up slowly with a lot of sputtering, yours seemed to be an instant crash so maybe the fuel was not your issue.
I did drain the old fuel about six weeks ago.
The fuel in the boat tank is fresh.
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by uncle-buck uncle-buck wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Did you check for spark out on the river right after it quit or did you pump the throttle and see if the accelerator pump was squirting gas into the primary throats?

Don't know how long it was from when it quit till you ran it again on the hose buty ou could have an ignition system issue related to heat and after the component cools off again, you have spark again till it heats up again and quits. It could be the coil or the ignition module for example or a mismatched coil and module or an electrical connection that needs cleaning..

The Pertronix haters will now line up to tell you what they think Wink

I think I'd go for a ride with the temporary tank hooked up, the timing light in the boat so if it quits you can pretty much instantly check for spark and either rule out a spark issue or confirm one.

If it doesn't quit on the temporary tank during the ride, then you know where to look (somewhere upstream of the pump). Make sure the temporary tank is vented so the fuel pump doesn't suck a vacuum in the tank and quit pumping.

Make small circles not too far from the launch ramp to minimize any paddling that might be necessary, and go upstream Wink


I did not check for spark or pump the throttle. Took about 90 minutes to get home. The coil is new and correctly matched with the module, according to SKIDIM. But it could have failed. Will take a spare coil next time out.

Good idea to take a temporary tank out for the next ride.

How do you check for spark using the timing light?

Thanks



Just hook it up like you normally would and squeeze the trigger, push the button or whatever you have to do on yours to make the light flash.

Don't need to aim it at anything, crank the engine over and see if the light is flashing while the trigger is depressed..

It won't be flashing fast since the engine isn't running but if it's flashing while you're cranking then you have spark

No flash means no spark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cgerdz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:50pm
Check anti-siphon valve (right where fuel line comes out of the tank), didn’t see it on your list.

Had an old MC that sat for years and it would run fine until it picked up a tiny piece of funk or plastic that stopped up the valve, and it would act exactly as you describe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2020 at 12:44am
I was out on a 1983 Ski Nautique that had a very similar engine shut down. While pulling a skier, the engine went from running just fine at 34 miles an hour to dead...it felt like someone simply hit the kill switch. We had to be towed back to the marina. The coil was pretty hot to the touch. Once the engine and coil cool down it fired right back up.  My buddy now carries a spare coil as a backup. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2020 at 6:34am
Originally posted by cgerdz cgerdz wrote:

Check anti-siphon valve (right where fuel line comes out of the tank), didn’t see it on your list.

Had an old MC that sat for years and it would run fine until it picked up a tiny piece of funk or plastic that stopped up the valve, and it would act exactly as you describe.
Wasn't on the list, but I did check it about six weeks ago and will check it again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2020 at 6:41am
Originally posted by Jonny Quest Jonny Quest wrote:

I was out on a 1983 Ski Nautique that had a very similar engine shut down. While pulling a skier, the engine went from running just fine at 34 miles an hour to dead...it felt like someone simply hit the kill switch. We had to be towed back to the marina. The coil was pretty hot to the touch. Once the engine and coil cool down it fired right back up.  My buddy now carries a spare coil as a backup. 

JQ
The coil is brand new, but could be defective.
Will test primary and secondary resistance, and begin carrying a spare.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2020 at 12:32pm
OK, found this on the Pertronix website. Says the issue may be caused by a voltage issue to the distributor:




Instructions for ground and voltage checks:


Did a ground check and it was perfect. Zero resistance.

Did a voltage check and got a reading of only 7.25 volts with both cold and warm engine, which is low.

What's the best way to proceed from here?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2020 at 2:33pm
  
 I'd look at this TRB diagram and verify that you have about 12 volts at the following places

going to your ignition breaker (if you don't have 12 here, work backwards to you 8 plug connector and check the voltage at pin #5)

coming out of the ignition breaker

going to the ignition switch

coming out of the ignition switch with the key in the RUN position

and that should get you about 12 volts to the coil assuming you got rid of or bypassed the ballast resistor. It may be a little lower since you're also supplying the electric choke element and excitation to the alternator with the key in RUN.

The best check would be with the supply to the coil disconnected because if the electronic module is grounding the coil (same as having a set of points and they're closed) then you'll see low voltage like you're seeing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2020 at 6:18pm
Does your distributor have a ground wire?  If not, maybe corrosion is not giving you a good ground for the EI module.
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-07-2020 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

Does your distributor have a ground wire?  If not, maybe corrosion is not giving you a good ground for the EI module.
I did the ground test described above and found zero net resistance. Isn't that indicating a good ground?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-08-2020 at 5:45am
Originally posted by uncle-buck uncle-buck wrote:

Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

Does your distributor have a ground wire?  If not, maybe corrosion is not giving you a good ground for the EI module.
I did the ground test described above and found zero net resistance. Isn't that indicating a good ground?

Yes


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

  
 I'd look at this TRB diagram and verify that you have about 12 volts at the following places

going to your ignition breaker (if you don't have 12 here, work backwards to you 8 plug connector and check the voltage at pin #5)

coming out of the ignition breaker

going to the ignition switch

coming out of the ignition switch with the key in the RUN position

and that should get you about 12 volts to the coil assuming you got rid of or bypassed the ballast resistor. It may be a little lower since you're also supplying the electric choke element and excitation to the alternator with the key in RUN.

The best check would be with the supply to the coil disconnected because if the electronic module is grounding the coil (same as having a set of points and they're closed) then you'll see low voltage like you're seeing.
Ken,

Followed your advice and checked voltage to/from the locations you suggested.
Have approx. 12 volts going into and coming out of the ignition breaker, into and out of the ignition switch and to the ignition coil (after disconnecting the power supply to the coil).

Also, the EI is apparently a PCM conversion module, not Pertronix.

So I'm leaning towards a diagnosis of either overheated/faulty ignition coil or a faulty EI module.

What say you?

Thanks.

P.S. Your expertise on these boats is pretty impressive.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 1:08pm
Just to make sure we know which one you have, since it gets confusing, here are a couple of pictures  Wink

First one is Prestolite electronic module with the rotor removed

Second one is a Pertronix module





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 1:44pm
It's the Prestolite shown below:



I think the replacement module would be the Pertronix Ignitor II 91589 with a Flame Thrower II coil.

But how do I know if they are needed?

BTW, I have the original distributor cam, plate, points and condenser - and could reinstall the cam and plate if a different Ignitor II kit would be better.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MI-nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 1:54pm
that photo looks familiar Wink
As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 4:32pm
Here are a couple of photos of the male plug on the wiring harness.
How do they look to you?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by uncle-buck uncle-buck wrote:

Here are a couple of photos of the male plug on the wiring harness.
How do they look to you?


Hey that thing is always referred to as the 8 pin connector, but don't let anybody tell you that one pin is broken off. Wink

Pin 4 is what appears to be missing, that would be a 10 gauge Orange wire that doesn't exist on your boats "boat side" wiring harness because you have a boat with a voltmeter.

If you had an ammeter, the boat side harness would have that Orange wire running up to the ammeter.

Your engine side harness probably has all 8 wires going to it if you were to take a picture of it. That's so the same engine side harness could be used on an ammeter equipped boat or a voltmeter equipped boat.

The plugs look reasonable but you could clean them some and put some dielectric grease on before putting it back together

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by MI-nick MI-nick wrote:

that photo looks familiar Wink

Can spot his own distributor photo..............good job Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by uncle-buck uncle-buck wrote:

It's the Prestolite shown below:



I think the replacement module would be the Pertronix Ignitor II 91589 with a Flame Thrower II coil.

But how do I know if they are needed?

BTW, I have the original distributor cam, plate, points and condenser - and could reinstall the cam and plate if a different Ignitor II kit would be better.

Have you figured out yet if it's a fuel problem or an ignition problem? I'd figure that out first.

The 91589 kit you mention is as good as any other Pertronix kit.

If you were to install the original cam for the points, you'd need kit number 91582 but there's no difference in performance.

You mentioned that you have the original points stuff, now Pete's gonna get all hot and bothered and say to put them back in. Wink

You could do that and see how it runs for troubleshooting purposes.

You have to be careful that the points cam doesn't get installed 180 degrees out if you were to reinstall it. There's a little clip under that felt pad in the center of the shaft that will drive you to drinking, swearing and throwing things all at the same time. You have to get the clip off to remove the reluctor wheel and put the points cam in it's place........and then you have to get it back on all without destroying or losing the clip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2020 at 9:34pm
I really don't want to wrangle with that little cam shaft clip again and am going to take a timing light and a known good ignition coil with us the next time we use the boat. If it dies again, I'll check for fuel and spark and go from there.

Right now, I'm thinking the issue was caused by a defective coil which was recently purchased. But we will see.

Thanks again for all of your help on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2020 at 5:49am
Originally posted by uncle-buck uncle-buck wrote:

I really don't want to wrangle with that little cam shaft clip again and am going to take a timing light and a known good ignition coil with us the next time we use the boat. If it dies again, I'll check for fuel and spark and go from there.

Right now, I'm thinking the issue was caused by a defective coil which was recently purchased. But we will see.

Thanks again for all of your help on this.

Sounds like a reasonable plan Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2020 at 11:39pm
Haven't taken the boat back out yet, but did install a Pertronix Ignitor II EI module and a Flamethrower II coil.

The engine did not run well at all and my timing light wasn't even picking up enough spark to illuminate. Reinstalled the Prestolite EI module and it ran fine.

Now I am really perplexed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2020 at 6:02am
I should have mentioned it days ago - put the point set back in. Big smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2020 at 6:45am
Here's a quote from 10 days ago Pete

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

You mentioned that you have the original points stuff, now Pete's gonna get all hot and bothered and say to put them back in. Wink

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

I should have mentioned it days ago - put the point set back in. Big smile 



BTW This would be the perfect time for you to do a tutorial on replacing your Prestolite EI module in the Tique with a set of points.

I seem to think you have all the parts necessary Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2020 at 7:02am
Originally posted by uncle-buck uncle-buck wrote:

Haven't taken the boat back out yet, but did install a Pertronix Ignitor II EI module and a Flamethrower II coil.

The engine did not run well at all and my timing light wasn't even picking up enough spark to illuminate. Reinstalled the Prestolite EI module and it ran fine.

Now I am really perplexed.

Put down the bottle Buck Wink

You don't say whether you've adjusted the timing at all, but since the light doesn't light up, I doubt it.

Having installed "a few" Pertronix units, I've most always had to adjust the timing some on the Prestolite distributors.

If you make a mark down where the distributor seats on the block so you know it's original starting point, you will probably have to rotate the distributor a little at a time and see if it starts and runs any better.

I'd start by advancing it a little (turning housing clockwise).

Keep in mind that if you move the distributor 10 degrees, that gives you 20 degrees of engine timing advance, so small adjustments are better than big ones

If no luck, go back to the original marks you made and go counter clockwise.

If nothing works you at least have the marks you made to get back to the original distributor location and put the Prestolite module back in.and recheck your timing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncle-buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2020 at 2:43pm
Ken,

I followed your instructions on adjusting the timing and it did not run any better.

Also, following Pertronix tech support's advice, I sanded the distributor hold down bracket along with contact surfaces on the distributor and engine block to make sure the module was well grounded. 

In addition, I ran a jumper wire from the + side of the battery to the + side of the ignition coil to make sure the coil was getting 12 volts. No difference.

If the Pertronix module isn't facilitating the distribution of enough energy to light up a timing light, it certainly isn't going to run the engine very well.

Am reinstalling the Prestolite EI module and coil.

If you have any other suggestions, they would be welcomed.

Thanks
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