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"Blown" Ford 351

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 6:28pm
By the way Bill, I'd say good to see ya back here, but it would probably be better if you were out boating Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 7:08pm
Look to see if this highlighted tab is out on both front corners. If you are missing one that is the side that is backwards


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 11:30pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

I'm back!! Ha! I received the short block from Texas, new rebuild. Some help from a friend and an Oak branch the front yard got it out of my minivan and into the boat. Assembled all the other engine parts, had a hell of a time indexing the distributor this time. Got it tho. Put the boat in the water and it started and ran and then began heating up, and up, and up. Went through timing thinking it was heating due to retarded timing, was wrong there. Now I'm thinking I installed the head gaskets wrong. By the way, I broke two intake manifold bolts of torqueing them to spec, and one of the water pump bolts. Modern bolts are crap? They were replaced prior to the restart. Anyway, now I'm thinking I may have blown up the last engine cuz I probably put the last head gaskets in wrong as well? Overheated it. BTW, I've named her "Perseverance" , it just came to me, from somewhere!! So attached is a photo of an old thread. Can someone confirm this is correct? Thanks, William. 

Here's a link to the thread you copied that picture from


Sometimes you just don't know who to believe PCM and a dealer  or SkiDim or Ford.who designed and built the engine

In your case it sounds like maybe you picked the wrong people to listen to. 

Here's a picture that's probably worth a thousand words to show the head gasket orientation the way it should be Wink

In the thread linked above Alan's (81 Nautique) answer is as good as it can get...............the word FRONT stamped into the end of the gasket that's missing the extra holes goes to the FRONT on both sides of the engine.

With them installed right the flow is as balanced through the cylinders and heads evenly, with all of the cylinders and heads getting roughly the same amount of cooling.

The other way, you have some cylinders running much hotter and some running much cooler.

The gaskets in the picture are FelPro 17060 and they have FRONT stamped in on the top and the bottom of each gasket so that the front always goes to the front when you read that and put them on with the front in the front.

I think I've said FRONT enough times for now Wink

One gasket installed backwards isn't the end of the world though. People have run cars and boats like this without any immediate overheating issues and a normal looking temperature on the gauge, but long term it'll have an effect on the engine life due to localized overheating of the rear cylinders on the side with the backwards gasket.

If you're overheating, you have other issues to take care of.

The first most obvious question would be if your raw water pump is oriented the right way.



Thanks guys, Ill check for the tabs sticking out this weekend when I return to the lake. About the raw water pump being oriented the right way? Doesn't it only fit on the boat one way?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-16-2020 at 11:47pm
I'm also a little confused when I compare the photos of Keno and Gary. In Gary's photo it looks like the tab is sticking out of the bottom of the head. In Keno's photo it looks like the tab would be sticking out of the top of the head, unless those gaskets in Keno's photos can be flipped to install? Or, my eyes are playing tricks on me again. I guess the main point is the front holes on both sides are blocked. One gasket bead up and the other bead down? Forgive me if I'm beating the dead horse.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2020 at 8:15am
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

I'm also a little confused when I compare the photos of Keno and Gary. In Gary's photo it looks like the tab is sticking out of the bottom of the head. In Keno's photo it looks like the tab would be sticking out of the top of the head, unless those gaskets in Keno's photos can be flipped to install? Or, my eyes are playing tricks on me again. I guess the main point is the front holes on both sides are blocked. One gasket bead up and the other bead down? Forgive me if I'm beating the dead horse.  

The horse is dead, it doesn't care how much it gets beat now Wink

Some gaskets you will have one bead up and one down and others look the same on both sides. 

Just have the FRONT in the FRONT That's the important part

Like you said, the main point is that the front holes on both sides are blocked.

Not all gaskets for a SBF have as much material at the front as what Gary's photo shows, but there should be at least a small amount sticking out at the front lower edge of the head.

The links below will show 2 FelPro gaskets to compare

One is the FelPro 17060 like I took pictures of, not much will stick out on the front when it's installed right

The other is a FelPro 8548PT2 and it'll have a bigger flap hanging out like Gary's picture shows



Look close and you'll see the difference Wink The way the pictures in the links are, look at the upper right hand corner of each picture

And depending on what you used for gaskets the amount sticking out will vary, but you should be able to see/feel a little flap if they're both on right whatever brand and part number they are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2020 at 8:30am
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:


About the raw water pump being oriented the right way? Doesn't it only fit on the boat one way?

I didn’t go back to confirm if we were talking about a PCM 351w, but assuming we are, the answer is definitely NO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-17-2020 at 8:30am
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

 
 About the raw water pump being oriented the right way? Doesn't it only fit on the boat one way?
 


I seem to think you have a Commander, so if you can tell what the pump brand is (Sherwood or Jabsco) that would help but the answer is NO Wink

Probably need a picture of your engine looking right at the water pump and need to know if what you have now is still reverse rotation or standard automotive rotation to give you a good answer. Probably still reverse since you used the same distributor from the sounds of things

Or, you could take the suction hose from the pump and stick it in a 5 gallon bucket of water and see if it pumps it out or doesn't move any water at all

Depending on the pump, it should empty the 5 gallons in under a minute at about 1000 rpm's. Those would be good representative Sherwood numbers but the Jabsco should be about the same 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-20-2020 at 12:42pm
Good morning all, and thanks as usual for the support! I'm heading up to the lake this eve. I do have a Commander and the pump is Sherwood, I remember that. One thing, Last week I tried my version of testing the water flow situation by removing the thermostat and inserting a hose there. Started the engine and the water drained out of the intake under the boat. It didn't appear to go into the engine. Don't know if that says anything to you guys. I called the engine builder and he confirmed I have the RR engine. He said the distr would not have meshed with the cam gear if otherwise. I'm keen on eliminating the raw pump before I have to tear the top down AGAIN. I'll do the uptake in a 5 gallon bucket prolly tomorrow morning.  And just now a crazy thought has occurred to me. I may have installed the wrong water pump. The previous block came from an old Mustang. It came with a water pump. I used it with the last rebuild, to my memory I didn't have a temp problem then but there was a little hole in the top passenger side of the pump in the rear that water was pumping out of. I JB Welded it and went on my way. On this rebuild I used the pump from my original engine because I was concerned about the JB Welded hole. No such hole exists on the pump I have installed now. The hole was not damage, I looked like it was drilled for some reason when the pump was manufactured. By the end of this drama, I will have exhausted every possibility of ***************g up an engine swap, I'm sure! Jeez. Are water pumps interchangeable between RR and SR engines? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-20-2020 at 12:44pm
Correction, driver's side, starboard, if looking at the engine from the belts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-20-2020 at 5:41pm
I imagine that little hole you plugged with epoxy was probably about 1/2 inch in diameter. It was also probably an automotive pump since that hole is where the heater return hose on a car goes. another hole pretty close to that one is for the thermostat bypass on a car application and usually has a pipe plug screwed into it on a marine Small Block Ford circulating water pump

Running the hose from the pump suction to a bucket will tell you if the pump is oriented right. If it doesn't pump, rotate the pump 180 degrees so that what was the suction is now the discharge and what was the discharge now has the suction hose hooked up to it and give it a try.

And by the way, you're a long ways from exhausting every possibility of ***************g up an engine swap Wink

Edit.................See the next post to tell if your pump is oriented right without doing the bucket test.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-20-2020 at 6:17pm


Here are a couple of pictures to help you know if your raw water pump is installed correctly for Reverse Rotation.

First picture shows the pump housing with the infamous screw that people use to tell them if the pump is installed correctly for their rotation.


Second picture is what you should see looking down at your pump when it's installed the right way for Reverse Rotation. The screw isn't visible because it's on the bottom part of the pump housing facing kinda down and inboard Since you have a Commander, I won't tell you where the pump is since you already know it's not where it is on a PCM. Wink 

If it was oriented for normal rotation, that screw would be staring right back at you if you were looking at  the pump.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 11:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 11:41am
If im not mistaken that's my raw pump on the right with the pulley. Seems to me it will only attach to the boat in that config. Doing the test later when it warms up a bit here. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

If im not mistaken that's my raw pump on the right with the pulley. Seems to me it will only attach to the boat in that config. . 

Yes, that's the RWP. Look on the side of the body of the RWP towards the circulation pump and you will see the screw that Ken mentions and pictured. That's where it should be for a RR engine. BTW, the screw is what holds the cam inside the pump. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 1:46pm
Looks like I can't see the screw so the pump is mounted for reverse rotation like it should be.

Some Commanders had the pump mounted a little differently but in the same spot, not quite as vertical, but yours looks right to me (and Pete)...........It's gotta be right Wink

Don't bother rotating it, but it could be rotated 180 by removing the hoses and the 2 bolts holding it to the bracket.

How's them head gaskets with the lip hanging out or maybe not hanging out on one of them?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:02pm
Thanks guys. I think this is good news....the tabs are sticking out on both sides on the head gaskets. It took a minute to get it started but finally it fired up. Have a hose in a bucket and there is 0 water being drawn from it. I remember a loud whining coming from the raw pump on the initial start two weeks ago. I thought it was because it was dry and when the water flowed it would stop. It did stop but maybe not for the reasons I assumed....I think its dead.  I'll be very happy if we've solved the overheating issue without having to remove the heads, please god. I'm going out to remove it now and see if I can get it open. Onwards.....this would be the next step?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

I remember a loud whining coming from the raw pump on the initial start two weeks ago. I thought it was because it was dry and when the water flowed it would stop.

Yes, open the RWP up and see what's going on inside. There is a possibility that the rubber impeller has sheared off it's hub. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 4:54pm
Going out on a limb here and assuming it should not look like this...how could this happen and can someone refer me a part number please? Thanks guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 5:47pm
Sounds like you have never taken it apart before so you really have no idea what shape it was in before. They can tear up from age,running engine without water hooked up or mounting the housing backward so that the water does not get sucked through it. The incoming water lubricates it. Now your going to have to find those pieces so that they don't clog and cooing system parts. They sometimes end up in the thermostat housing or by the trans cooler 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 6:00pm
 
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

Going out on a limb here and assuming it should not look like this...how could this happen and can someone refer me a part number please? Thanks guys.

Can't slip nuthin' past you  Bill  Wink

It probably takes a Sherwood 09959K impeller or something that cross references to it

Should be 5/8 shaft size and the width or depth of the piece in your hand should be about 1 1/4 inches. 

If the piece in your hand is about 1 5/8 inches deep then it's a 10615K impeller. They had 2 different Sherwood pumps on Commanders

And don't forget to find all the pieces that you can. You'll need to look in the thermostat housing and the inlets to the exhaust manifolds and drain the manifolds and maybe a piece or two will come out the drains. 

Then you need to look on the suction side of the pump right at the inlet and with the suction hose off look at that hose and the transmission oil cooler outlet because some of those chunks can drain backwards and make their way back to the cooler..

As far as the impeller, some people are convinced that you need a genuine Sherwood impeller or it'll overheat, some aren't so convinced about that and use aftermarket equivalents Wink.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote William777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 6:41pm
Measured it and it's the 10615K. Ordering it now. I'll scour for the pieces and drain the exhaust manifolds tomorrow. I'm thankful for your expert advice guys. Found a genuine Sherwood impeller on West Marine site,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-21-2020 at 10:51pm
While you are waiting for the new impeller to arrive, search "timmy tee" on this site and plumb in a tee in your raw water intake hose that you can use to feed raw water from a hose for running on the trailer.  It's the best and safest way to run on the trailer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2020 at 6:28am
Originally posted by William777 William777 wrote:

Measured it and it's the 10615K. Ordering it now. I'll scour for the pieces and drain the exhaust manifolds tomorrow. I'm thankful for your expert advice guys. Found a genuine Sherwood impeller on West Marine site,

In case you're wondering, Sherwood called that an L80 pump in your boat  It's obsolete now but you can still get parts for it through various places.

As compared to the G20 or G21 pumps used on PCM Fords, because of the bigger impeller it has a few GPM more flow at most operating speeds and has 1 1/4 inch inlet and outlet connections while the G20, G21 have 1 inch connections

The smaller Commander pump was a Sherwood J70 also obsolete but pretty much every part except the shaft is the same as the G20, G21 pumps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2020 at 8:35am


KENO,  Nothing is OBSOLETE.  Just takes a little time and some "backyard hackary skills"




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2020 at 8:42am
You can't fool me Duane

A real backyard hack does all his machine work with a 4 1/2 inch angle grinder. Wink

I guess if you add in your labor, that's a pretty expensive piece of hackery
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Duane in Indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2020 at 8:52am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

You can't fool me Duane  A real backyard hack does all his machine work with a 4 1/2 inch angle grinder. Wink  I guess if you add in your labor, that's a pretty expensive piece of hackery
  


Just glad I don't try to sell these given the time involved.LOLLOL
BTW   It did work great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2020 at 9:00am
Here's a link to my multi purpose machining tool Duane

I always keep a couple in the backyard Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2020 at 10:01am
Duane, if that's hackery I wish I was more of a hack.  Really impressive work!  Ken, that grinder is so 1990's, you have to have a cordless one now so you have another charger and 2 batteries that are always dead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-22-2020 at 10:12am
Originally posted by Duane in Indy Duane in Indy wrote:

 
BTW   It did work great.

Duane,
After all the work and time you put into making it, glad to hear. Did you have a hard coat threatment done to it to prevent wear of the softer aluminum? 


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