It should be true

Hold now. I asserted no opinions here.

Waterdog said our country was founded on a belief in god. The Declaration of Independence does seem to support this with its reference to Nature's God.

You asked Waterdog to support his opinion, and I threw up the support for him.

However, as you have pointed out, 12 years later, the leaders of the country at that time went to some lengths to pronounce separations of church and state in our Constitution.

I'll give you some relevant facts as well. The fastest growing "religious associated category" in the United States is atheists and agnostics. Some polls show numbers now as high as 16%. The numbers are higher in correspondence with the number of years of education, and they are much higher in the west than in the South or Midwest.   

The only opinion I'm going to state is that it really doesn't matter to me if someone believes in a god of any form (Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Islamic, etc . etc.) or of they believe in no god. It matters to me how they conduct themselves and how they treat other people. Most religions I've observed provide a decent framework to lead one's life. If followed I think folks from most any religion would be conducting themselves properly in my eye. Others don't have a religious framework, and conduct themselves just fine as well.

For now what I believe is that I'm going to grab another Beer and go back into the garage.

BKH

Phil, you are no different than the obnoxious johova witness, just a different view point. I don't doubt at all that athiest are growing as the political progressive group is growing also.    

This whole discussion has me intrigued.

Phil,

I'm still curious about how you look at a couple things. Let me throw a scenario at ya.

Let's go back to our moon landing discussion for a second. Now, let's pretend there wasn't all the pictures and video and samples from the first moon landing. All we know is NASA said they went there.

I would assume that you would question it at the least, right?

Now let's say in 1999 we sent another expedition to the moon. This time we have all the photo and video evidence of it truly happening. In addition the expedition goes to the same point on the moon the first one supposedly did. While there, they found evidence of that first expedition. Things like a flag stuck in the ground, footprints, tire tracks.

Would that be enough evidence for you to believe the first expedition did actually take place?

Phil, I was just funnin' with you. Just enjoying the thread and interjecting some humor from someone who isn't such a deep thinker. I respect everyones opinion even if they are wrong . Again just a joke to lighten up things a bit. I totally respect your opinion and your right to speak your mind. Now, how about a cold one.

phospher wrote: I would assume that you would question it at the least, right? I certainly would. Would that be enough evidence for you to believe the first expedition did actually take place? Probably, but I would have to look at at all the details. This is very different than believing in God. Saying that there is a magical invisible man who lives in the sky who is all powerful and all good demands more evidence than a foot print and a flag pole. These are prosperous claims. we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different.

Thanks for the answers. That kind of confirms what I thought about what it takes for you to believe in something. You're definitely a hard proof kind of guy.

You sound very intelligent and educated and I'm sure you've studied a lot of different religions. With that assumption, I'm sure you know the Bible fairly well.

If you know Revelations well, maybe you can answer this for me.

If Jesus were to return in our lifetime and all the Christians were swept away, as the Bible prophecies state, what would your reaction be?

If the prophecies continued to come true (Seven seals and Tribulation stuff), would your reaction be different or your belief change?

In other words, would you believe in what the Bible has to say and the possibility God exists if you were seeing those type of things with your own eyes?

Okie Boarder,

My comment about attacking me personally was directed to Riley.

I just pulled up Yahoo to go to my email and saw this story...thought it was a little applicable to the discussion...

News Story

All in all it takes more faith to believe that God does not exist as opposed to beleiving that everything in this universe did not just all of a sudden happen.

davee40 wrote: All in all it takes more faith to believe that God does not exist as opposed to beleiving that everything in this universe did not just all of a sudden happen.

Couldn't disagree more. And all of the sudden? More like millions of years.

phospher wrote: Titus 2:9...you posted that one and I would assume that you have a problem with the idea of someone being a slave, is that correct? Of course, don't you?

Nope.

We're all slaves to something (someone).

You might be missing the point of that verse and taking the single sentence out of context. Many times the Bible talks about slaves and/ or servants and teaches us to obey our masters. That portion of it explains to us how we are to have humility and ultimately gets put into full context with respect to what Jesus did. Jesus lived His life in service to others as an example. He GAVE his life as a service to mankind. The other part of the context of those types of verse talks directly to the masters and how they should treat their slaves / servants. Many times you will see that the Bible instructs masters to treat slaves / servants in a humane way. When taken in full context, the Bible instructs masters to treat servants / slaves as you would treat a member of your family, with love and respect to a certain degree.

<sigh> I'm not sure why I just took the time to type that all out. I'm sure you probably don't see it the same way. I don't know though, maybe you'll read what I wrote and look at it a little differently than you used to.

Okie Boarder wrote: <sigh> I'm not sure why I just took the time to type that all out. I'm sure you probably don't see it the same way. I don't know though, maybe you'll read what I wrote and look at it a little differently than you used to.

LOL. I'm not sure why either of you bother. You are no more likely to make phospher believe in a god than he is to convince you that there is no god. You'd both have better odds of winning the lottery.

Whether Atheist or Missionary, I guess you have to admire someone whose convictions are so strong that he or she will talk to hundreds or thousands hoping to convert just one.

Me, I'd rather buy a lottery ticket and spend my time asking people to help with worthwhile causes like helping veterans, kids, schools etc. I guess I just like a little better odds.

BKH

Certainly people convert and/or change there opinions. But, in my opinion, the ones that do are already searching for a reason to believe or not believe. When someone is already steadfast in his or her convictions around this matter, there is almost no chance you will change his or her mind, regardless of which side of the fence you are on. BKH

God doesnt believe in Athiests....you need something to believe in, something whether it be what we know as god himself or a higher being, someone you can talk too besides your other personality lol, really though its the faith that comes from within your soul that there is good in this world, im sure you guys have been in the worst drunk of your life throwing up everywhere and im sure your first thoughts were God, I'll never ever drink again...that is a hidden faith that deep down is instilled in your being.Faith has been questioned because technology caught up with us, imagine in the 1800's when the world shook as it just did in Chile, people ran to thier churches, Mayans sacrificed people because of thunderstorms and those were the thoughts of those days but that has slowy left as technology could explain why things happen and the result was a lack of faith. you have to believe in something, I know there is an in between to where ever we end up, maybe a place where the aches and pains are no longer, no wheel chairs, a place of peace, but beyond that i dont know...thats faith, and if your wrong and you dont believe in something, well i guess you will find out

Okie,

I'm not sure what kind of slave your talking about and I don't understand when you say "the things that consume our being". Like Fast Food? In any case, I'm talking about human slaves. One person owning another. The bible is pro-slavery and it's also clear that women were put on earth to serve men, to keep their homes in order, and to be incubators of sons. Have you ever studied Deuteronomy 22? Check out Deuteronomy 22:28-29 GNB.

Phil,

You and I are looking at it from two different perspectives, in a sense. It is still possible for people to be slaves to people in this day and age and it happens quite frequently. It happens in a way that is less obvious than what you are thinking. However, that wasn't what I was talking about, per se. My point is more on the comment you quoted..."the things that consume our being".

I'll throw out an extreme example...an alcoholic. An alcoholic worships alcohol...it is his god, so to speak. Alcohol consumes his being and he is a slave to it. It controls his life.

We all have vices and we all have something(s) that hold great importance in our lives. Those things (or sometimes people) are our gods. They are what we worship and what we are slaves to.

Here's something to think about. Would you rather worship or be a slave to something in this world that offers you nothing but instant gratification, or would you rather worship and be a slave to God, who IS love and provided you a path to everlasting life shared with Him?

That's the way I look at it. You might not see it the same way, and that's fine. In the end, the choice is yours.

Like I said earlier, if you think you do not worship anything and you are not a slave, you are kidding yourself IMO.

Chuck did a pretty good job of comparing OT to NT and the New Covenant and what it means. It is important to understand the history and culture of the OT and it is important to understand what God commanded the people to do back then. It frames a context as to why Jesus came an what the overall purpose is. Many people like yourself interpret that as how we should live our lives today, which leads to the type of thoughts and comments you have shared with us. It is understandable to have those types of thoughts and comments when the entire context isn't taken into account. Like Chuck said, thanks for the thoughts. Every time thoughts like that are shared, it challenges people to look deep into the belief and into the Bible's teachings to understand them even better than before.

*(One side note that Chuck elluded to is that slavery was common back then and different like he noted. However, God was commanding his people to treat the slaves better and to take good care of them, also providing them with guidance and discipline. When fully understood, this shows you how God was instructing his people to do better...to be better, than common society at the time)