You didn build that !

Isn't it the employers that pay the unemployment tax?

John, there's something like 1300 people that worked at the Hostess plant 3 towns away from me that are very much suffering a job loss. I think most of them, (at least those in the bakers union) are delusional in thinking they're going to get hired back if the plant re opens. The guys you got to feel bad for are the Teamsters whose union did not strike and they lost their jobs. Some of those guys were in their late fifties with only a year or two to go to retire, and now they're screwed as they can't get a union job to finish off their time.

So John and Joe, if I am understanding your posts correctly ,then the same should have been done with GM then correct? That's what SHOULD have happened but the govt stepped in and intervened. Why does the govt get to decide who should receive help and who shouldn't? They help GM but not my friend's business. They help Sally Mae and Freddy Mac but not Hostess. There doesn't seem to be any definitive boundaries.

john b wrote: Riley wrote: John, there's something like 1300 people that worked at the Hostess plant 3 towns away from me that are very much suffering a job loss. I think most of them, (at least those in the bakers union) are delusional in thinking they're going to get hired back if the plant re opens. The guys you got to feel bad for are the Teamsters whose union did not strike and they lost their jobs. Some of those guys were in their late fifties with only a year or two to go to retire, and now they're screwed as they can't get a union job to finish off their time. You made my point, the jobs were just displaced. Turano, a local bakery that employed just over 200 in the 90's now employs 1,831. We got your jobs! Tell the workers we have their jobs in Chicago. New Plant Addition to old plant

Until the next economic meltdown... Unfortunately, the common thread across the country is for local brands to be bought up and nationalized. Then they get relocated and leveraged to the point where they fail. Our "Hostess" plant was originally JJ Nissan which was around for decades in Portland. They still would be if the parent to Hostess didn't buy them. We're all losing our local brands and the jobs that go with them.

John, I applaud you for your time that you volunteer to help others not so fortunate. I don't do near as much as I could or should. But how dare you suggest that because I (or others like me) am a successful middle-class worker that I put myself on a pedestal or take away from the less fortunate. When I drive through the less desirable neighborhoods in my city and see people that live in government subsidized housing driving Escalades and checking out at the supermarket opening their Coach purse and pulling out food stamps, yes i have a ***************g problem with that. It has become more the norm than the exception and people like you that continue to believe that there is not a real problem with our governement "handouts" and the way they are being handed out are simply skating through life with blinders on. When I hear some thug on the radio flaunting to the DJ that he's living high on the hog eating steak on the state, yes I have a ***************g problem with that.   Especially when I have been working 55-65 hours a week since I graduated college to be the halfway successful person that I am. I have made difficult decisions in life and sacrificed things (like selling a $18k boat for a $5k boat so I could be closer to being debt free) so that I could be a better provider for my family. It sure is troublesome to me to know that the rewards and personal gains from working hard are becoming more and more difficult to see. I've seen it at my own company where things have gone from being razzed by your fellow associates for going home at 5:15pm and being called a "part-timer" to now being one of the only guys left after 5pm still grinding it out. The new youth want a paycheck. I want a career and success. And I'm about to get it and it's been 13 years in the making at the same company because I know success isn't made overnight and you have to earn it. Real emphasis on the "earning" part. Because over 50% of the bloodsucking maggots on government assistance programs haven't earned $h!t and this country is handing out money like it grows on trees.   So please excuse me if this came out wrong but I think I have a "right" to be upset that a lot of my hard earned money that gets taxed gets "given" to some a-hole that hasn't earned it. I did.

Brett, You misunderstand several things about my post.
First, I respect you for working hard and having good ethics. I don't believe you put yourself on a pedestal. If your post is true, I believe you are proud citizen.
I also tried to make it clear that I am pretty average and deserve no applause for the small the things I do. Honestly, there is a selfish motivation for doing it, I t makes ME happy. Enough on that.

That being said, I believe if you got out of your car and went into the "less desirable" neighborhoods you would find that your pre-concieved notions about the social structure in public housing do not reflect reality.
I spent a lot of time in public housing during my career, not only UC, but responding to calls during my days in patrol. My career ended working an overtime detail at night on a bicycle in an area of public housing.
First off, most of the people in these housing programs are good people, just like you and me, but in bad circumstances. Many are unmarried and have children they care for. Some of these unmarried mothers are that way because they were raped in their neighborhood. The vast majority of them work, and they pay to go to work each day, whether in their car, or on public transportation. I find it hard to accept that a mother would have to tell her child that there is nothing to eat this week because she smoked a little weed, something I'm sure you would find that for some here (not me however) goes with a day aboard a Correct Craft, barefooting and blasting the subs and tower speakers.

When you see a tricked out "Bubble" or Escalade, or something with 20s you can pretty much be sure they are not living on government programs. Normally those cars belong to the local gang members who demonstrate their gang status with their car. I am not familiar with Florida license plates, but here in Illinois it is pretty easy to tell what the gang affiliation is by the Escalade (or other car) license plates. Prevent Violence plates are common among the Gangster Disciples because they are blue and black. The Vice Lords use the Environmental plates because they are red with black on them. They believe it is good business to extort what little money and anything else they can get from residents forced to live in these complexes. They fund their exploits in ways that most people who don't spend time in the complexes never see. Some of the popular methods are charging residents $5 to $10 "safe passage" to keep their teeth in their mouths in the stairwells and parking lots. They force residents to stash drugs in their apartments and cars so their own cars are not subject to seizure by the police on drug charges. They intimidate the children of those who will not go along and dole out beatings as necessary. These gang members force residents to drive them to transport drugs, commit thefts, and at times, force residents to purchase guns for the gangs, since those with felony convictions cannot legally purchase guns in most jurisdictions. If you ever check Feebay you will find that you can purchase a "authentic" Coach purse for under $10.

I would like to suggest a book for those who don't care to walk into your local public housing complex and have coffee with the good citizens and gang members. It is a big step in understanding the culture. I find it to accurately portray life in "the projects" based on my experiences.

Gang Leader for a Day: A Rogue Sociologist Takes to the Streets
By Sudhir Venkatesh
Gang Leader For A Day

bhectus wrote: John, I will respectfully disagree with you.   Our society has abandoned this philosophy and it saddens me greatly.

Brett and Billy,
I know there is fraud, but it is still true that the vast majority of people receiving benefits need and have earned them. We all have a responsibility to report any abuses we observe. I believe the standards to qualify for most programs are clear and fair. Maybe the answer is to hire more people to screen the applications and more investigators.

As far as your neighbor is concerned, Brett, would you hire the guy? Your neighbor has very few options in a market teaming with qualified applicants without a murder conviction for every available job. At an average cost of $45,000 per year to incarcerate a person that cost is a necessary one to place him back into society. With no means of support and no prospects for employment how do you expect him to eat and live. There is a high rate of recidivism among Xs because of this. I don't know of anyone who will starve or freeze to death willingly. Next thing you know you will be reporting a crime at your house, hopeful not a violent one.

You quote one line from a great speech, but how long has it been since you read the speech in it's entirety?

I believe this speech is in the public domain so I posted it.
    
Vice-president Johnson, Mr Speaker, Mr Chief Justice, President Eisenhower, Vice-president Nixon, President Truman, reverend clergy, fellow citizens: We observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom - symbolising an end, as well as a beginning - signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three-quarters ago.
The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe - the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans - born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage, and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

This much we pledge - and more. To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do - for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder.

To those new states whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom - and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.
To those people in the huts and villages of half the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required - not because the communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
[/B
To our sister republics south of our border, we offer a special pledge: to convert our good words into good deeds, in a new alliance for progress, to assist free men and free governments in casting off the chains of poverty. But this peaceful revolution of hope cannot become the prey of hostile powers. Let all our neighbours know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house.

To that world assembly of sovereign states, the United Nations, our last best hope in an age where the instruments of war have far outpaced the instruments of peace, we renew our pledge of support - to prevent it from becoming merely a forum for invective, to strengthen its shield of the new and the weak, and to enlarge the area in which its writ may run.

Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction. We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.

But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course - both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.

So let us begin anew - remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate.

Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belabouring those problems which divide us. Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms, and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations. Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors.

Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce. Let both sides unite to heed, in all corners of the earth, the command of Isaiah - to "undo the heavy burdens, and [to] let the oppressed go free." And, if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavour - not a new balance of power, but a new world of law - where the strong are just, and the weak secure, and the peace preserved.

All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin.

In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe. Now the trumpet summons us again - not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are; but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation", a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself.
Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, north and south, east and west, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility - I welcome it.

I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it. And the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world, ask not what America will do for you, but what, together, we can do for the freedom of man.

Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth, God's work must truly be our own.]

Jr. will. E preaching to his cellies!

I like both hockey and cycling. Hockey is the official past time of LE guys. Let's all make a toast to the Chicago Blackhawks!

So lets recap from yesterday.
Concerning GM "They were wiped out. In what world should the government take on all the liabilities to the employees then sell the resources (designs, plants, tools, dealer network etc) to private equity for pennies on the dollar so they can sell it off in pieces and make 500% while destroying the American manufacturing sector- they would be getting paid simply for being rich, not for building, not for taking a risk, but for destroying something it took a century to build up.   Instead the government (us) kept it together greatly increased the value and is now selling stock off in chunks at a reasonable market driven price what could be more fair than that?"

and Hostess "they were not making a lot of money, if the management/owners couldnt make money with those brands, that distribution network, and that labor structure then they shouldnt be in business and their investment should be wiped out and the assets sold off to pay the creditors. Quite a few of those employees will end up working for the new owners, and likely at a better rate than what they were being offered."

and concerning labor "A free market fundamentally depends on the worker actively seeking to maximize thier return on their labor.", but business in a free market is supposed to fundamentally ignore actively seeking to maximize their return on their labor and make sure they pay a livable wage.

I guess I need to re-read my big book of Democrat double standards for dummies. The more I learn the more confusing it becomes.

Also Unemployment is not a benefit we pay into, it is insurance. The more it is used, the more it costs all of us and the bigger drag it becomes on the economy.

OverMyHead wrote: but business in a free market is supposed to fundamentally ignore actively seeking to maximize their return on their labor and make sure they pay a livable wage.

Who said that? I said if they maximized thier short term return by promising future benefits instead of higher salarys to begin with then didnt invest or save to be able to provide those benefits in the future then they deserve to fail and not be bailed out.

You look to hold leadership harmless for poor leadership, and the investors harmless for poor investment, but then hold the laborers responsible for not seeing in advance that the leaders and investors would destroy the company by how they were leading and investing? Not only is it rediculous, but even if the laborers were omnisicent and decided to take less pay for the future good of the enterprise there is no doubt in my mind that the excess profit would still have been squandered in even bigger management bonuses and dividends and the end result would have been the same.

you might want to skip rereading your double standard propganda book.. you have that down pat..

Anyone see that video of Biden telling someone to buy a shot gun to defend their home? Obama put Biden in charge of gun control and he's giving lame advice that is incredablyly stupid and irresponsible. And he gets a complete free ride from the press and all the Obama followers. I do not understand the blind loyalty this administration gets from so many people, especially educated people.

JoeinNY wrote: cute -not really anything to do with what I said and misses the more obvious parrallel of government and taxpayers Certainly not as funny as going back a few dozen pages on this thread and rereading all the predictions about what would happen by now if Obama was reelected. Just try and turn off the talk radio and live in the world of facts every now and then guys and maybe the republican party can get someone to run for office that isnt a complete tool.

Aww lighten up Joe, you know I was just playing around. xoxo

Riley wrote: Anyone see that video of Biden telling someone to buy a shot gun to defend their home? Obama put Biden in charge of gun control and he's giving lame advice that is incredablyly stupid and irresponsible. And he gets a complete free ride from the press and all the Obama followers. I do not understand the blind loyalty this administration gets from so many people, especially educated people.

Bruce I think he watched too many elmer fudd cartoons. he could have at least recommended a pump shotgun