Prop selection question
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47900
Printed Date: May-03-2024 at 4:18am
Topic: Prop selection question
Posted By: Crmaverick
Subject: Prop selection question
Date Posted: August-11-2019 at 3:04am
| I’m looking at ordering an Acme prop for my 454, it’s a LH motor. Dumb question does this mean I order a LH prop? I was looking at getting the Acme 541 |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-11-2019 at 7:39am
In your case you need a LH prop with your 1 to 1 transmission that turns the same direction as the engine. Not exactly knowing what you're using the boat for, I'd say you might want to do a little more research before getting a 541 with your 400 ish HP 454 in the boat  What's on it now as far as pitch and diameter? |
Crmaverick wrote:Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 1:14am
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I’m not sure I’ll have to take a measurement, but when I punch the throttle at 30 or so it cavitates. Out of the hole it doesn’t cavitate though, guessing whatever on there is wrong |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 8:26am
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It would be a lot easier to read what's stamped into the hub for diameter and pitch. You must have 4 thousand or so HP if it acts like you describe above, cavitating when you punch it at 30 |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:03am
Haha makes sense, how about a RH prop would that cause it? Print is hard to make out except for one code. Does this look like an RH prop? Also measures out to an 11” prop. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W9mwUGi4wbtHeQJ1y5_0twl2P8nAhnDN/view?usp=drivesdk" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W9mwUGi4wbtHeQJ1y5_0twl2P8nAhnDN/view?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qej4GlOPJpcaY5bv8g_PW0Z87VTT5yb0/view?usp=drivesdk" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qej4GlOPJpcaY5bv8g_PW0Z87VTT5yb0/view?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oYGUAEFVdVZuhp0gNQU1lbL0t7HPB-F-/view?usp=drivesdk" rel="nofollow - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oYGUAEFVdVZuhp0gNQU1lbL0t7HPB-F-/view?usp=drivesdk |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:10am
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What's up with the stop collar? And that's a LH prop, we determined that when you first arrived Should be 13x14 I see prop damage and wonder if the key is spun out ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:16am
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That engine should spin a 13x14 5200rpm abouts or higher You put a 451 on it it's going to frag the engine ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:22am
Right I was looking at 541 prop, one on mine measures out to 11” and makes me cavitate past 6000 rpm |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:23am
451 that must be a case of inverse, modified dyslexia or something You better turn the key off and hide it somewhere till you get something like Gotta Ski mentioned as a starting point to keep the RPM's down |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:36am
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Indeed, we advise against the 541 you are looking at! ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:40am
Sounds good thanks. How about the acme 425? It’s a 13x13. All the 13x14 are no longer available for some reason |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 9:47am
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Look on the end of your prop hub where the nut butts up against it, you might find the dimensions stamped right there. Some have it on the other end too. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 10:06am
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Mav You have a PM |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 10:23am
why the chub for an acme? What's your intent with the boat? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 10:56am
Haha I hear they’re good props. I’ll be pulling skis and tubing, probably mostly cruising though |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 4:01pm
Somethings very odd with that prop. Besides the key, I wonder about the taper in the bore. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 4:49pm
I see Well a great prop but wrong size will still leave you flat, or worse, broken, you understand. Something is amiss, continue to be patient with our inquiries, and we'll get you sorted out and undo what has been mismanaged prior to it getting to you. A run of the mill 13x14 federal should still pull 3 footers on that boat so its not like you should need to experiment with an unproven recipe to get similarly good, solid performance. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 4:59pm
I actually ordered a acme 425 this morning https://www.skidim.com/products.asp?dept=1130 Skidim recommends them on the barefoot 454, ordered from nettleprop.com for $345 |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:03pm
My next issue is how do I pull that old prop with that collar in the way? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:08pm
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That’ll come out of the hole well but you’re gonna need more prop up top... probably not the best all around choice. At least for an early hull with the HO. Delta is a site sponsor and $10 cheaper with free shipping FYI. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:10pm
You may need to disconnect the shaft coupling at the trans and pull the shaft aft so you have room for the puller between the collar and strut. Then pull the collar along with the prop. I recommend looking at the shaft very carefully and see why the collar is even on there. I suspect there's damage to the tapered bore of the prop. Don't forget to lap the new prop to the shaft. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:13pm
What’s lap the prop to the shaft, is that putting in the key way? |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:15pm
Maybe I’ll send this one back if I don’t like it, what do you recommend for a delta prop on a 454 2001? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:19pm
Let's hope somebody replaced that original 1 inch shaft with a 1 1/8 shaft somewhere along the way Otherwise it'll be a loose sloppy non fit Hopefully a prop puller is in the order too, no fair beating on the old one with a hammer. Good talking to you earlier today I guess you won't need my loaner prop to try |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:24pm
Thanks yeah I saw that they were used on the barefoot 454 so I figured safe to order. I did order the puller and hardware kit |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:29pm
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They're not used on many direct drive Barefoot 454's at all since forward would be reverse and vice versa. And .....................the direct drive Barefoot 454's had a one inch shaft. Hope you got it right
|
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:40pm
Hmm well the 425 I got is a LH 1 1/8 shaft. Would a 13x12 prop have more top end speed than a 13x13? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 5:40pm
Acme actually recommends the procedure. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 6:47pm
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We are talking about 400 hp at 5100 ish rpm LH engine in a 2001 - acme 431 is the correct prop. Unfortunately mine didn't survive more than a day or two before I destroyed it, but worked great while it was on. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 7:36pm
Joe, What happened to the prop? Did it flatten out? Throw blades? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 11:21pm
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Well, here's an update on Mav's prop story as of tonight. To start with some background info, the boat's a mid 80's 2001 hull with a LH rotating , 400ish HP 454 that he recently bought and has been working on. His issue is that the boat accelerates well, but if he punches it a 30 mph or so, it's slipping or cavitating or whatever. He could use a new prop and what he has on it right now is a 13 by 14 LH prop that's somewhat beat up. That's the stamping on the hub anyways And the key is in the keyway He verified that the shaft is 1 inch diameter, he mistakenly thought it was 1 1/8 inches and ordered an Acme 425 that'll be getting returned. His dilemma is ...........what to get He could get an Acme 431 13 by 13 .080 cup Or he could get an Acme 1459 13 by 14 .135 cup I figure either is gonna work, the 431 will act a lot like the original 13 by 14 and was Joe's recommendation based on some of his previous destructive testing Tim says a 13 by 13 Acme is not enough prop, which would lead to the 1459 choice So...................which one? He's gonna use it to pull skiers, cruise around and (don't read this part Pete), pull tubes I'm gonna be in his area at the end of the week and we'll get the old prop and goofy collar off, check the shaft taper, see if it's straight and depending on our mood maybe even do some lapping Then the new one can go on and see if his issue is resolved or maybe there's a transmission or coupling issue to deal with |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 11:47pm
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You are good man Ken. I have some lefties but all are 13 square and not enough to even try with all that ass under the hood. Thanks for helping him out. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 12:33am
If so, make sure you wear your white monogrammed dress shirt.  Chris, you are getting some first rate help! ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 12:53am
| 1459 minus some cup would be ideal. 1598 in lefty form (same prop but .080). The 431 would run closer to 1:1 at 5100rpm, the boat should be capable of 55 if the motor is healthy. |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 1:08am
Thanks for all the help everyone. Would this be the ideal prop you’re describing except 1”? http://www.nettleprops.com/store/p/440-Acme-1595-Propeller-3-Blade-13-x-14-LH-1-1/8-Bore-080-Cup.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.nettleprops.com/store/p/440-Acme-1595-Propeller-3-Blade-13-x-14-LH-1-1/8-Bore-080-Cup.aspx |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 8:17am
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Since Acme doesn't seem to make what he's describing which would be a 13 by 14 prop with .080 cup to fit a 1 inch shaft,you have the 2 choices mentioned earlier. The 1459 or 431. Don't even think about the 1595, get it out of your mind I'd figure if you not feeling adventurous you go for the 431 being a more equal replacement. Nobody really knows your engines health but if you're feeling a little frisky, then the 1459 will hold the rpm's down some and maybe give a little more speed. Then again, you mentioned earlier that the 13 by 14 props weren't available for some reason so the choice could be made for you already. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 8:33am
Dave I'm out of lapping compound, So I think I'll mix up some sandblasting grit with some toothpaste and give it a whirl I'm just not sure if I should use extra whitening or fluoride or maybe some herbal more natural type stuff. Crest, Colgate, Aim, and so many others to choose from Decisions, decisions A new shirt is on the agenda too. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 10:46am
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Mav, while we sort this out, whats the list number on the carb's air horn? should be -9022. Let us know if you find something different. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 10:48am
That’s it 9022, it codes out to an 800 cfm |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 10:55am
 ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 11:04am
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Mav, three decades ago with a similar boat (sister boat to yours) a wise man limited our boat speed with tubes to 22 mph, else it gets put away. Believe me, you can still cause both fun and carnage with those limitations and i still use that rule of thumb towing our guests (when the lake is clapped out on a weekend, of course) Your boat is capable of absolutely wrecking someone, so just wanted to pass on don't let your guard down ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 11:39am
Based on what boat? Am I forgetting a 2001 hull boat that has shown a legit 54 mph on a gps? A 431 for the win - 5250 at 53-54 gps mph on a good day would be my bet. My dynoed 403 hp - lighter engined LH version wasn't asking for more prop than a 431. I was down 10 percent cubic inches so likely down a bit of torque lower in the cure and therefore might have enjoyed a bit more prop but I doubt it would be worth lugging the motor all the time. I think the general rule of unless you increased displacement you should keep the same prop but expect to spin it faster applies. - My 431 met a very large rock at a very slow speed - one blade folded over badly - operator error for sure. Although I am going to blame the equipment operator that built the brand new pier with ladders and cleats and a pile of boulders all along the side 12 inches under the water. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Crmaverick
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 5:19pm
Ordered a 431 today and the other one was shipped back. I should have the 431 on Friday |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-13-2019 at 8:37pm
| My 430 runs 1:1 above 50 (50.5 at 5050rpm with a 330hp 454) and that’s on a slightly more efficient/faster hull. If this is a legit 54mph boat, then with the less efficient 2001 hull, I would expect closer to 5500rpm to get there (with a 430/431). A 1598 equivalent (1459 minus cup) would dial the rpm back by 300rpm closer to the 5200rpm goal. Now if the boat isn’t quite that fast maybe the 431 will get it closest to the power band. Kind of a crap shoot without a good set of baseline data. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-16-2019 at 6:05pm
|
Well, after a trip to Mav's this morning, he got the puller and was waiting on the prop to show up later in the day. The old prop was beat up but not terribly bad, we (or I should say he got the prop off while I helped) without much problem. Part of my "help" was checking out the rest of the boat, engine, drivetrain etc and letting him know what I found. Other than finding a big ol' 454 in there, he had replaced the original HEI automotive distributor with a Delco EST( that's for electronic spark timing) Marine distributor. No flyweights and no springs, the advance curve is programmed into the module. It was a good looking install Next I was looking at the transmission coupler and shaft couper and got to break the news to him that he has an ARE shaft in the boat Moved on to checking the runout on the shaft and it was straight and spun easily by hand even with a dry cutlass bearing. No excess play in the bearing either Took some pictures that will get posted later The boat itself, like mentioned in his other thread is an 84 that's had the Rustoleum stripes stripped off and the maroon on the sides is done in something that's as hard as nails and then OEM vinyl lettering put in place. The interior is kinda rough but that can be taken care of The pylon is a tall factory one that sticks up above the windshield slightly. He has the same rudder rash as Flyweed just posted about only not quite as bad. Since it's a Lefty, the rash is on the right side of the rudder We talked about installing the prop and I m mentioned a few other things also and had to disappear because of other stuff I had going on. I figured he could handle the prop install and a trial run tomorrow. Not quite though, he called a few hours later to say that the Acme 431 wouldn't go on the shaft and be able to rotate 360 degrees without hitting the prop guard. The old prop had probably an inch of clearance and I had a 13 by 14 oldie that I brought that also had the same inch or so clearance. Not the Acme though Funny thing about the rake on the prop So he's now into a little reengineering of the prop guard and measuring prop and rudder clearance from the pavement, gravel, grass etc in case he unbolts the guard. He did say that he doesn't have much clearance from the guard to the ground on a level surface. I think he already has the trailer a little nose down from level when towing to gain a little clearance. Maybe somebody can post a picture of a mid 80's SN with an Acme on the stock CC trailer for comparison And the shaft isn't too long since there's probably 5/8 -3/4 inch clearance from the strut with the old prop and I didn't see it with the new prop but I imagine it's about the same. Sometimes even a straightforward prop change isn't so easy Once he's past this speed bump, then he'll be able to see if the prop cures his issues or if maybe it's a transmission or coupler issue |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: August-16-2019 at 6:14pm
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My 86 trailer had ample propeller clearance. My 85 trailer did not. I ended up putting the back of a forklift over the middle of the prop guard and lifting the edges of the guard with a crane. Bent back into place nicely and squared up the rear parts of the trailer main beams. That said, this boat had a 3500 lb axle (Smaller tires) and the axle was mounted on the top side of the springs. This explains why the prop guard was bent up so much. I ran a 5-6" drop and it would still hit the ground a lot over small road changes etc. Take a look at how the axle is configured and I bet the prop guard is pretty bent up. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-17-2019 at 12:02pm
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A few pictures of Mav's boat The tall pylon  An aluminum intake with brass water passages. I think that's original on the high output engine and expensive  There's something not quite right about the dashboard  Also took a picture of the PCM tag on the engine, but didn't come out real good It's a PLN WR L10 or by PCM literature it's a 390 HP Left Hand Rotation 454 with a 1 to 1 Borg Warner transmission. and an 8.6 to 1 compression ratio. |