1979 Fish Natique Help please
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47568
Printed Date: April-28-2024 at 5:11pm
Topic: 1979 Fish Natique Help please
Posted By: TJ59
Subject: 1979 Fish Natique Help please
Date Posted: June-09-2019 at 10:23pm
| 454 marine . Ran perfect I have Marine starter, marine.alternator marine fuel and Marine Edelbrock 1410 , my distributor wasnt a marine so I ordered a petronix d200800... a friend of mine decided to stab it , when he's finished he tells me oh I think I got it close..now I need to check the timing however there are no marks on my timing cover and number one spark plug is very very hard to get to... However it runs perfect on the trailer with water hooked to it..don't know what it was you with a load put on it. What's the best way to check the timing or even should I ? |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-09-2019 at 10:38pm
Perfect on the trailer doesn't mean much  One way or another you really should check the timing. What did your friend do to get it close? This may sound silly but how hard is it to get to #6 spark plug? |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-09-2019 at 11:06pm
| Number 6 is very easy to get to. my friend said he took off the cap and the old rotor was pointing at number seven and he got it close to 7. He is a mechanic so I know that I'm trying. Usually I do things myself.. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-10-2019 at 7:59am
Sounds like just what he said, he got it close Then if you had timing marks you could do the final timing check/adjustment. Since #6 is easy to get to, if you were to read about using a piston stop to find TDC on #1 you could do the same procedure on #6 and mark the damper and timing cover at TDC. With an advance type timing light, that's all you would need to check the timing With an older type light and some timing tape for the damper, you could then do the timing check. #6 is always at TDC on the exhaust stroke when #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke since it's the fifth piston/cylinder in the firing order, meaning the TDC markings are the same on those two cylinders. A little tough to explain on the computer, but if your friend can do the check with a mechanical stop this will work. With this or any other 90 degree firing V8 you can check the timing with the light hooked to #1 plug wire or to the fifth wire in the firing order and the light sees the same timing marks. Sorta' magic but not really
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TJ59 wrote:Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-10-2019 at 11:06am
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Thanks so much , this is big help when i put my finger over #6 plug hole it will push it back , i just gotta make sure its the correct stroke--- i assume it will be the stroke that has rotors pointing in the general direction of #1 since the engine starts and runs well? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-10-2019 at 12:31pm
If it's pushing back that means 6 is approaching TDC and the rotor would be pointed at #6 not #1. This won't give you any more accuracy than the install job did. If you want to accurately mark the damper and timing cover you'll need to use the piston stop method which is a lot more involved. You know it's close already because it starts and runs, you just won't have any real idea where it's set though (other than close) Somebody is bound to jump in and say something like "I set my timing by ear" or "I set it by adjusting for max RPM's at full throttle and back it off a little" and start a discussion or 2 They may work for those people but it's not exactly precise |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-10-2019 at 12:39pm
| Thank you so much .. this has been very educational |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-10-2019 at 12:40pm
And probably confusing too
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Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 1:22pm
| ok all done-- pulled #1 plug ( got to it) -- anyway my friend was a little off-- i got rotor ro point to # 1 starts and runs perfect--- i ordered a big block timing tab so i can set as close to perfect as possible-- only problem i see now is that i see timing tabs mounted on diff locations of timing cover--some on drivers side, some on pass side, some on top welded to cover--- at the end of the day does the tab location matter? |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 2:59pm
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TJ59, Keno gave you the best advice possible but you did not do it. You need to buy a Piston Stop, you install the piston stop in your Spark Plug hole, #1 or #6 will work as Ken already told you. With the piston stop in place you rotate the engine slowly using a wrench on your crankshaft where the harmonic balancer mounts. (the big pulley at the bottom of your engine) I say turn slowly and by hand because you will rotate till the piston hits the piston stop and won't rotate any more. If you do this with a starter you will break the piston and piston stop. Do it slowly by hand. Piston stops I have used are adjustable. You can turn the stop down or up to work with many engines. Start with the piston stop adjusted down. With the piston up against the piston stop back off the stop, raise the stop up as you slowly advance the piston up against it. If you back off too far the piston will rotate past and you will need to reverse your piston and lower the stop a little so you find a spot where you stop the piston close to Top Dead Center. Now you lock the stop in place and mark your timing cover and Harmonic Balancer, use tape at this point for your mark. Mark it in a place where you can use it to check timing in the future. Step one is done. Next reverse rotation with your wrench and rotate the engine backwards till the piston hits the piston stop again. Once again use your tape and make the mark on your timing cover and on the harmonic balancer/crankshaft pulley. Now you will see a gap between your two marks. The Center of this gap is TDC or Top Dead Center. Measure carefully as TDC is very important for proper timing. Mark your Top Dead Center clearly now that you know where it is. You might use a dremel tool and leave a permanant scratch for future use. Obviously if you use the dremel tool don't bore a hole into your engine, just leave a clear scratch or mark for future use. This method allows you to find exact TDC quickly in an engine like yours that has no markings. You can later add the timing tab and mount it matching your TDC marks. As far as I know ALL harmonic balancers will have a Timing line on them. Last as Ken already advised you use a Set Back Timing Light. With one of these you can run the engine and adjust timing very accurately. These lights have a dial on the light that help you set your timing. Dial in 10 degrees on the light and run the engine. The light is advanced 10 degrees now so it will flash at your TDC mark. Last step to verify your Advance is working proper you can dial in 34 degrees or any number you choose and run the engine up to 3,000 -4,000 RPM and see if you reach 34 degrees total advance. Playing with this light you can watch your advance and make sure the distributor advance works smoothly and gives you the mechanical advance desired. So at idle if you set the timing to say 10 degrees and now run up the RPMs you should find the mechanical advance moving your timing as the RPMs climb and it should max somewhere between 33 and 36 degrees advance with the engine spinning 3,000 to 4,000 RPM. Most are fully advanced by 3,300 RPM but you need to check.. Do some reading on what advance works in your 454 without problems. If you run 2 degrees too much in a loaded boat you might burn a piston or head gasket. This procedure is what you have to do to make sure your engine not only SOUNDS good but actually RUNS good and can work at wide open throttle without burning itself up.. Hope this helps. ------------- |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 3:07pm
thank you so much . you guys are so very nice and helpful.  loaded pic of my baby-- if i loaded it right |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 3:12pm
| i ended up getting help from a GM tech this Am and we got it spot on without timing light..my tab comes in morrow and then will check |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 3:25pm
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Can you share what technique your GM Tech used to set the timing Spot On. ------------- |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 3:27pm
| the exact procedure you stated above by pulling the #1 and using stopper |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 3:52pm
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Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 5:25pm
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Hey Tico, nice to see that you got some great advice from a couple of guys with a huge amount of knowledge and you took their advice. Glad to see you get it done right! Your boat looks like it is in very nice shape, curious to hear how it performs with the 454. Is it new to you? There are not all that many of these around but the people that own them seem to really like them. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 5:34pm
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I've been running this boat for 8 years since my dad gave it to me with the 454 in it. Runs awesome.. I'll load up more pics so you can see the rest of it looks great.. I'm using a 13 x 11 3 blade prop. My cruising speed is 29 miles per hour at 3200 RPMs I didn't have a marine distributor and decided to put one, which brought all this on and had somebody do it for me and I wasn't comfortable with it.. I live in Louisiana and go offshore fishing quite often |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 6:06pm
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Surprised at the 13x11 prop. What is your top speed and WOT rpm? Not that top speed is a priority in that boat, but wonder if you could be turning fewer rpm at that same cruise speed and have a bit more low speed handling with more pitch. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 6:14pm
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I used to have a bigger prop and still have it I forget the size. With with that prop I couldnt build any more speed... The most I've ever opened it up his 4300 RPMs For maybe one minute and it got up to 33 miles per hour and that is it... To tell you the truth I don't even know what the highest cruising RPMs is I should be doing, I read that some people run at 4000 all the time but to me that seems dangerous...but other people that have a boat like mine always seem to have trouble getting higher speed than in the lower to mid thirties... The boat seems to run beautiful and like that 29 mile an hour range |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 6:57pm
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454's are very forgiving engines, could run them at higher rpm with no oiling problems, but I agree continuous at 4,000 isn't something I would do, particularly on the ocean. I've run my 454 jet boat at 4,000 for quite a while with no issues, but I'm not exactly far from shore or help at any time. Cruising rpm, beyond the obvious question of how quick you want to get there and how the boat is handling in the conditions, is about fuel economy. I don't know if, on a boat that big and heavy, you can be at mid 20's cruise speed and stay out of the secondaries, but it might be worth a look. The difference in fuel burn at 25 or 29 or 32 might be quite a bit different. Sounds like you've really enjoyed the boat! If you are happy with it no need to experiment, but it might be interesting to put the other prop on, see what the rpm is at 29 mph and whether you find it runs quieter at the same speed, and do a full trip guess at fuel burn vs. the prop you have now. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 7:15pm
| Man, I am so excited I joined this form. You guys are incredible. yeah I need to tinker a little bit just to see what happens. Thank You |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 9:56pm
| My timing tab came in today and I installed it. Seems to be spot-on...only problem is the line is jumping around about an inch Every now and then. However it seems to run perfect, never seen it idol this smooth and my life.. haven't put it under a load yet. Is the light jumping around anything to be concerned with? Forgot to mention this 454 only has about 80 hours on it . You harmonic balancer. New pulley. I have a freshwater setup. Even with all motor and this one I've always noticed a slight wobble with the fresh water pump. But it is never given us problems |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 10:11pm
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Are you saying that it's idling and the timing changes without you giving it any gas? Is the speed changing when this is happening? |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 10:12pm
| Smooth idle ... 650 rpms ...when the timing light is flashing the white mark on the harmonic balancer moves back and forth about an inch....at idle |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 10:28pm
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It seems that if it was really changing that much your engine would be changing speed as the timing changed. That would be a 15 or so degree timing change on your 454 and there would be some big speed changes. I think I'd try the timing light on your car/truck or some other engine to see how it acts. |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-11-2019 at 11:07pm
| I think the Timing light might be bad. I actually dropped it today LOL. Engine is running too darn good...I noticed there's a little bit of play in the distributor hole where it goes into the intake side to side movement whenever the clamp pulldown is loose.. nothing excessive just a little bit.... |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 4:15am
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As Ken said, no way it would idle smooth at 650 with your timing jumping 15 degrees. If you move timing 5 degrees advanced you would pick up 100-200 RPM right away. Time for a new light. ------------- |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 9:09am
| I hope that the case . This is a digital light . Ad a matter a fact I can watch rpms on light hold between 640-650 while the white line is moving back and fourth.. again , I did drop light earlier in day..Bosch light from AutoZone..gonna get another light today |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 12:00pm
| freakin HAPPY - went get new timing light- checked it this AM and no longer bouncing around !!!! i am at about +3 degrees-- i can play with it from here with Dizzy ( lol - learing the lingo) -- thank you guys for all the help-- very educated , nice group |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 12:44pm
Hang around for a while, you'll find out most people here are stupid and mean.  Glad you found the site, looking forward to more pictures when you get a chance. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 10:33pm
| Okay wanted to run one more thing by y'all. After everything is said and done o my timing at idle is actually 12 degrees.. this is a raw water system so of course the garden hose is hooked up to it... It seems if I mess with the dizzy and try to get the degrees any lower than that it feels tight... From what I'm reading 12 degrees is okay? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 10:56pm
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Your instruction sheet for that distributor should say it has 24 degrees of mechanical advance on top of the initial advance So............24 plus 12 equals 36 degrees total at high RPM Probably right on the ragged edge of being too high in a big heavy boat. That's assuming you got TDC correctly figured out and marked by MrMcD's directions, It might be worth checking your TDC mark , and also that you have the right degree scale #1 or 6 at TDC the mark on the damper should be at the zero on the degree scale |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 10:59pm
| Just thought I'd mention that if you're turning the timing down, the idle will want to slow down and you'll have to adjust the idle speed to compensate |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 11:06pm
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Thank you again guys yeah idle to compensate make sense. I'm not a 9.9% sure I am on TDC... I think the idle drop and make me think it was going to kill and I was doing the wrong thing. So knowing it is TDC I will back it off and play with it some more |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: June-12-2019 at 11:31pm
| Well boys timing is down to 8 degrees and idle.. The RPMs at idle at 600. Start smoothly. No backfires etc ....the exhaust sounds deeper than it ever has. Which leads me to believe my timing has always been off since it has never been set with a light.. |
Posted By: jblocal
Date Posted: June-27-2019 at 11:03pm
| Nice rig! I have a 87 with 351w. Awesome for wahoo fishing. This site is awesome and people on here have helped me out a lot over the years. |
Posted By: TJ59
Date Posted: July-28-2019 at 6:02pm
 Been trying to figure out a send a picture thank I got it. |