Bad Alternator? Bad belt?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38712
Printed Date: May-06-2024 at 3:12am
Topic: Bad Alternator? Bad belt?
Posted By: bdillard
Subject: Bad Alternator? Bad belt?
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 2:55pm
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Had my 1990 sport Nautique out last night and on the drive back to the marina, the engine was squealing and wouldnt stop and eventually I heard a thump on the motor box and the alternator belt had broken off... A little back story, I bought this boat a couple months ago with 920 hours on it (now has 932). It started to squeak a little bit during idle on about our 2nd or 3rd time out, and I assumed the belt was possibly bad because the squealing stopped once I put the boat in gear and we were under throttle. Thought I could live with the noise until I had a chance to change the belt. The squeal had progressively started to last longer and longer and I guess I held off on the repair too long. After it broke last night, I'm curious if something might be also wrong with my alternator. After the belt broke off and I had it back at the dock, you could freely spin the alternator pulley. Any ideas? On the drive back, the engine temp remained at right about 150, which is where it's been ever since I've owned her. The volts dropped from about 13 down to about 9 or 10 though. Oil pressure was at 40 psi just in case that's applicable at all... I'm not mechanic and hoping to learn some basic engine care from the old girl. I'm fairly handy with most things, which is why I'd like to learn more about engines and be able to do some basic maintenance that I'm unable to do now. How easy/difficult is to put on a new belt? I've heard it's fairly simple, just curious if anyone has any instructions (pictures/videos even?). Thanks in advance and sorry if I missed this somewhere in the forum already. I did a search but didnt see anything. |
Replies:
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:13pm
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If your alternator spins freely when you check it may be OK but most likely it has a bad bearing and has locked up.. Running an engine with a squealing belt is a bad idea. When they are squealing they are slipping on the pulley, not turning the pulley as they are supposed to do. The slipping belt heats up the pulley and the heat can damage the bearing on the shaft that pulley is attached to. You have two water pumps, The pump mounted on the side of the motor pulls water from the lake into the engine. Your engine has a water pump mounted to the front of your engine that circulates coolant through your running engine. When the belt broke the external pump was pumping water in to the engine but the circulating pump was not turning on the front of the engine. Never having tried this I have no idea if your engine was able to stay cool or if the external pump was just moving enough water to the top of your engine to fool your temp sensor. Check the Water Pump and the Alternator for bad bearings. Either one could have broken your belt by locking up. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:24pm
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12 hours with a squealing belt. Well, good thing you're into boats and not planes. suspect its just the belt, start there. Yeah, there has to he some utube about old school fanbelt tensioning if one hasn't done that before. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:27pm
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Thanks! I'll look into both! I may just replace the alternator as it doesnt seem to be an expensive repair. I'll then know the alternator is working properly at least. I'm going to consult with someone around my area too about this, but wanted to see if I could get some feedback on here as well. How do I check the bearings? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:37pm
| Um, his circulation pump pulley should have 2 grooves. 1 for the RWP and 1 for the alternator. Both also go around the crankshaft. A missing alternator belt will not affect engine temperature. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:40pm
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Rather than replace why not take it off yourself and take it to an alternator repair shop? Have them check it out. Looking at a genuine PCM part they are 200 bucks ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:43pm
| Thanks HW. I was about to chime in. Two belts, one for each RwP and Alt. |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:48pm
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Don't just run out and buy a new alternator unless you have nothing else to do with your money. If you want to get rid of $200 for no particular reason, send it to me. Get the belt back on and see if its charging. My guess its fine and you were just experiencing an old loose belt. If not replacing it before, you could have at least loosened the alternator mounts and pulled the alternator tight. A normally functioning alternator will spin easily by hand, there is really no internal resistance. Not sure why Mark suggested it is locked up when you already stated it is spinning freely. Get a belt back on it. Check to see if its charging, if not, get it tested before running out an getting a new one. Rebuilding is a much more cost effective alternative. Understand that you are new at this and anxious to learn, that's great. But come here and ask first. You don't want to get in the habit of just throwing new parts at every little hiccup. That's a lot of peoples' way, but it sure can add up fast. EDIT: Ah...Gary said it much more succinctly than I while I was typing. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 4:56pm
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Brad, welcome to the site. I totally agree with Larry and Gary (sounds like a standup comedian act?). I'm guessing you are just a belt away from a perfectly running engine. Get both belts, the alternator belt and raw water pump belt. Both the alternator and raw water pump will have one attach point to their mounting arms that are fixed, the other can slide inward and outward when the bolt is loosened. Loosen, put the belt on, then use a large screwdriver or a pry bar to put tension on the belt while you tighten the bolts. Once all tightened up you want to only be able to push the center of the belt between the pulleys down 1/4" or so, in other words it needs to be pretty tight. Once back running, and with a fully charged battery, you should see about 12 volts when not running, just over 14 volts when running. You won't see 14 volts until the battery is charged, maybe charge it while you are doing this repair so the alternator doesn't have to do all the charging. You shouldn't hear any squeal at any speed once this is done. Good luck and hope this helps! ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 5:10pm
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Thanks for all the feedback here guys! I love this site so far. I read up a lot before buying my Nautique and I grew up playing on a 1979 Ski Nautique so I'm familiar with driving these, but not with working on them. I was about 17 when driving the '79 and have my wife and kids out now on the '90 so I want to know enough to keep us running or get us home should we encounter any issues. I have picked up a new belt so I'm going to work on getting that on and will then test to see if the squeal is present or not with the new belt in place. I'd read up some (and found a repair shop here in Mooresville NC (Melsons) that should be able to do alternator repairs. I called the local Nautique dealer and they recommneded Melsons should it need repaired. I drive a Jeep Wrangler and follow Wranglerforum and I feel like Correct Craft Fan is the same good group of people! Love being able to bounce things off people in my similar position that have been there and done that. Would you guys also recommend changing out the impeller anytime soon? I'm not sure how long it's been in use from when I purchased. Those seem to be about $20 or so, so that doesnt seem like a bad thing to just go ahead and replace so that I know how fresh it is. Hoping the new belt does the trick. I'll report back with what I find! |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 5:12pm
| Sounds like you're running cool, impeller is probably good but having a new spare on hand is even better. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 5:14pm
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Brad, Throwing my 2 cents in, don't become a "parts changer". Why spend the $$ on an alternator when it may not be needed. Always test first before running out and buying parts as recommended ^^^^ ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 5:41pm
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I like the feedback on not changing out parts just to change them out. I dont have $200 laying around to throw at a new alternator. I'll do as suggested and get the new belt on and take her for a spin to see if the squeal is present or not. I'm inclined to think the alternator is OK as it has had good battery charge since I've owner her - always around 13 volts when under power - whereas the squeal has gradually gotten more progressive over the past handful of trips on the lake until it finally broke. I'll test the new belt and see if that takes care of the squeal. I've also spent the majority of my day reading up on things to look for so I'll check some of the other items I've seen too. Mainly some other items about pulley alignment. thanks again guys - love the feedback |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 5:42pm
| I've read it's always good to have an impeller and a belt or two in your boat gear box. I'll pick one up to have on hand. is that something quick and easy to change on the water if I noticed the temps rising ever? |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 5:49pm
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Easy if you have a few tools with you. I carry a small tool box, has basic tools for small repairs like that. I carry both spare belts, impeller, spare drain plug, spare prop nut and key and cotter pin, spare kill switch lanyard. Maybe a few more things, would have to take a look, it kind of grows over the years. I like having the ability to do a 15 minute fix rather than being dead on the water and towed back to the ramp. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 6:34pm
| Also get yourself a straight edge and check alignment of all your accessory pullies. Make sure there is no side load on the belts. |
Posted By: 74Wind
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 10:06pm
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Someone correct me if wrong, but isn't the fan named Reid of race city marine on norman? If not, he would still be a good source of local help and reference. ------------- 1974 Southwind 18 1975 Century Mark II |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 11:04pm
Think he already did that ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
bdillard wrote:Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 1:34am
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Thanks HW. I was about to chime in. Two belts, one for each RwP and Alt. My 350 GM belt for the RW pump only went around the crank and RW pump. My alternator belt turned the water pump and alternator driven by the crank. Based on your comments the Ford is set up differently. I have changed RW impellers several times on my first Nautique and once on my newer Nautique but can't remember the belt lay out on the 351W Ford. If it was me and I did not know the history I would certainly change the impeller while in there right now. They are only good a couple years so do it now and take the next two years off. Make sure the cause of your belt breaking is not a failing Water Pump since it is driven by the exact same belt. Both the alternator and the Water pump should spin freely with no grinding felt as they rotate by hand. Also check movement in all directions. The pulley should not be loose or have any movement other than the ability to rotate. |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 11:47am
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I need to keep my on board tools/parts box growing. always good to hear what others have on board. So I picked up two new belts last night from the local Nautique dealer which is Race City Marine here in Mooresville NC. I'm thinking I have an idea of what the issue was but wont know for certain until I get the new belt on and get her in the water for a test. The belt that broke was not a PCM belt and the part number on the belt that broke was much different than that of the PCM belt I picked up. The broken belt is a bit more narrow than the PCM model and the broken belt also had what I'd call teeth on the bottom of it whereas the PCM is smooth. I'm wondering if the belt that broke was just something close to the PCM that the previous owner picked up (maybe from an auto part store or something??) and threw on there. I also noticed that the tension adjustment bar connected to the alternator is maxed out so again, I'm wondering if the belt that broke was not the correct fit. My dad works at a Marina in Northern VA where I grew and luckily for me was out with me when the belt broke so he had the idea to spin the pulleys by hand and he said they all spun free as they could go so hopefully it was just the wrong belt/bad belt that was causing the squeal and ultimately the break. Would an incorrect belt be a culprit here potentially? Maybe it was squealing from improper alignment because it was too narrow of a belt and therefore had some play on the pulleys? Maybe something finally gave way from the improper fit? |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 12:23pm
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Seems like too much calculus. Just replace the belt. Might be wise to get both, then they don't work against each other, and be good for a another decade. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 1:44pm
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Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 8:13pm
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I buy gates belts for mine 1/4 the price of PCM belts haven't failed me yet. The "teeth" are to help in cooling the belt. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 8:44pm
Not really. From the experts: "More flexible than smooth V-belts, these have notches that allow them to bend around small-diameter pulleys"  I use them whenever possible. The only application they can't be used on is a clutching V belt. This is when an idler sheave removes the tension on the belt causing it to slip on the drive or driven sheave. A typical application is a less expensive riding lawn mower. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 9:24pm
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The major belt builders of quality belts are Gates, Goodyear or Dayco. I would run any of the three. Dayco does offer a belt with notches on TOP, the Top Cog belt. Those are for cooling. The bottom cogs are for increased flex as pointed out. Even Ford, GM and Chrysler do not build belts, they will contract with one of the big three to build them. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 11:04am
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Cut and paste from Nrel.gov A notched belt has grooves or notches that run perpendicular to the belt’s length, which reduces the bending resistance of the belt. Notched belts can use the same pulleys as cross-section standard V-belts. They run cooler, last longer, and are about 2% more efficient than standard V-belts Pete all the new snowmobile CVT belts are notched and the belts for the higher HP sleds are ribbed top and bottom for extra cooling |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 11:33am
| Seems like the primary function is still bending resistance though. The increased surface area gives other beneficial side effects |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 1:32pm
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I'm going to try to tackle the belt installation tonight. Do I need to just loosen the bolt on the tension rod that attaches to the alternator or do I also need to losen all of the bolts that attach the alternator to the engine to give it some play to be able to tighten the belt once installed? Hope my question makes sense. |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 1:50pm
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Undo the adjustment one. There may or not be play in the position of the alternator at that point. If it doesn't move, loosen the lower one too. Slide alternator in as far as it will go. Slip new belt on around the pulleys. As mentioned above, get a large screw driver or something similar to pry the alternator out to tighten the belt. Maybe to the point of 1/2 inch play in the belt, hold the alternator there, tighten bolts. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 1:54pm
Awesome - thanks for the input! Fingers crossed this solves my problem and there's no issues with the alternator itself. |
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: May-31-2016 at 6:53pm
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Happy to report that the new belt install went quite smooth (to my surprise somewhat). I feel like I generally have high hopes that a project, regardless of how large or small, will go quickly and as planned and they never do. This one though, went very well. Loosened the tension rod as instructed and had to loosen the bolt on the bottom of the alternator and it allowed me to swivel the alternator enough to get the new belt on and re-tighten. I mentioned in an earlier post that with the old belt in place, there was ZERO room left to tighten, but with the new belt on, I've got probably 2.5" left on the rod. I'm quite convinced now that the old belt was not the correct belt and thereforce caused the issues. I guess if I'm wrong though, I'll know in a few more trips out. Once I got the new belt on, I took her to the lake and tested her out and she purred along like she was brand new. Took her out the following day and not one squeal or squeak even. Not sure if you can upload a video but I took one on my cell phone. Hope this solved the problem! Before adding on the new belt, I manually turned the alternator pulley and it spun as freely and cleanly as it could. No grinding feelings or noises. Smooth as could be. Hope it was just a bad belt. |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: May-31-2016 at 9:29pm
| I think a 1/4" play is what most engines call for. 1/2" might slip and squeal like a boat friend. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-31-2016 at 10:14pm
Sounds like you solved it 
|
Posted By: bdillard
Date Posted: June-01-2016 at 6:13pm
| We'll see! Like I said, just seems to easy. But I've seen some videos on belts and where if you've got the wrong belt and the alignment is off, it can squeal. So I'm hoping that's all the problem was. |