62 Classic needs a new Velvet Drive
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Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38440
Printed Date: April-29-2024 at 12:58am
Topic: 62 Classic needs a new Velvet Drive
Posted By: RainDog
Subject: 62 Classic needs a new Velvet Drive
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 8:35pm
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My transmission saga looks like it will be getting a little longer, so I opened a new thread. Background: Due to slipping under load, dirty neutral, oil leakage and bad oders, I knew my AS1-71C transmission needed to be rebuilt. After speaking to Jim (the owner) at length, I took it to Federal Marine Transmission in Countryside IL. Upon arrival, I was impressed. He has a small shop but it was neat and orderly with racks and racks of gear sets, cases, service parts, repurposed parts, etc. Jim also has a long history with marine transmissions and specializes in their repair. He warned me that the orange seals tended to ruin input and output shafts and if that is the case, parts were in short supply. I also learned that all 71C transmissions are not equal. Mine was a very early one and likely original to the boat. It has a shorter input shaft and this part is no longer available. Turns out luck was not in my favor because my input shaft was seriously ground away where the seal runs on the shaft. We took the trans down further. The pump was very worn with scoring on all mating surfaces. We pulled all the remaining parts that would come out of the front of the transmission. Everything had been well used and needed replacing. Jim estimates the trans was never rebuilt based on the seals, thin paper gaskets and some internal parts that would have been changed to different materials during a later rebuild. He estimates the trans had about 3000 hours of use. So, my transmission is beyond reasonable repair. I have three options - New, used rebuilt or used. New, we are looking at $2000+ with shipping. Both used rebuilt and used makes me very nervous unless I can verify the history. I really don't want to do this again in 5 years. I throw this open to suggestions from the group. I really didn't expect a $2K repair on the old Classic this year. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Replies:
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 8:41pm
Here is the input shaft. You can see the damage the seal did to it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 8:46pm
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Time for a Speedi sleeve! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 8:53pm
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But, the fun continues. My engine is a Grey Marine Fireball 225. It is based on the AMC/Ambassador/Rambler 327 block. It is a flywheel aft, reverse rotation engine. I need a replacement damper plate. The hole pattern is 6 holes, 11.625" across. The triangular damper will work well with its tips cut off but.... The problem is I have a splined hub that is 1.2" deep. With the deep splined hub, the splined input shaft sits in it about 0.75". Using the readily available replacement would not engage the shaft properly. Jim at Federal is looking into a custom unit. Does anyone else have any ideas?  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 8:56pm
Backside of the damper plate. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 11:12pm
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A little better than $2k new at SkiDIM (subtract 10%) if you go new. Shipping should be $100ish. http://www.skidim.com/mobile/VELVET-DRIVE-11-RATIO-71C-NEW/productinfo/RA157001/ Talk to Joe, he had a 71c or 2 that he had rebuilt at one point. I would not worry too much about a good used or rebuilt tranny. Most larger trans shops I've worked with will require a core but won't fault you if yours isn't worth saving. Tough spot now that you know your internals are in poor shape but perhaps there are still some useable parts where it wouldn't be a total loss for the shop. I'm sure they win some and lose some on the core exchange. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 11:30pm
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Current price on their web site is 1744.00,current catalog says 2937.00,might be worth a call. I'm now thinking the new one I saw on the Shamrock site with 50 hours on it for 400 was a steal--- ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: fanofccfan
Date Posted: April-17-2016 at 11:39pm
| I bought a new one in the early 90's and it was $1750 plus shipping. Inflation considered I was expecting your quote to be more. With that being said, it is still bunches of money to spend. I remember my dad telling me at that time to just make it a true direct drive......eliminate the trans all together and extend the prop shaft to the flywheel........that is one time in my life I am glad I did not listen to his advice. To my knowledge that 81 ski that it went in is still cruising the water.. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 6:21am
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Steve, http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/search_2/show.php?q=drive+plate" rel="nofollow - Check this drive plate (damper) out I think you could use your old adapter that bolts to the flywheel and then bolt the new drive plate to it.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 9:12am
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Pete, thank for the idea. The damper you showed has a mounting bolt diameter of 6.58". The recess in my flywheel is right around 6" so it wouldn't fit even if I could get it accurately centered and mounted to the backing plate. Besides, while the specs didn't specifically state it, I don't think the splined hub is deep enough. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 9:13am
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Steve, I have one more thought. The springs in a damper are off the shelf "die" springs. You may consider just replacing them. The color denotes the spring rate. http://www.mcmaster.com/#die-springs/=121884r" rel="nofollow - See the red springs at McMaster ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 9:20am
It can't have a mounting bolt diameter of 6.58 because the OD stated is 6.18. Also, my idea is to just use the center section with the springs and spline hub bolted to your old adapter plate. You would discard the adapter plate that comes with it. I'd call Ebasic and get some more info. Maybe they have a full drawing they could send? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
RainDog wrote:Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 9:33am
This is weird, Pete. You are right, ebasicpower states 6.18" dia. The Barr web site says differently: It says it is a BW part that is a replacement for the Barr part. I couldn't find info on the BW part yet. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 9:45am
This is an interesting thought. How would I remove the mounting rivets and how would I reassemble the damper? Better stated, what kind of shop would be able to disassemble and reassemble it using new permanent rivets? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 9:50am
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Steve, The easy part is drilling out the rivets. A good metal fabricator or metal stamper should have the capacity to stake new rivets in the assembly. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 10:08am
I'm thinking I have nothing to lose if I try this. Would a hydraulic press do the trick to fit in the new rivets? If so, Pete, can you point me to a source where I can find new rivets? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 10:16am
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Steve, A hydraulic press will work but the top and bottom staking tooling may be a problem. Notice the dimple in the middle? That's there to get some expansion to the ID's of the plates. Let's go back to the replacing of the springs only. I can't fully see how they are retained. Does it look like the plates would need to be taken apart for removal? Or,could the R&R of the springs be done simply by compressing them? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 10:24am
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Be careful with ebasicpower Steve. I suspect they do a lot of drop shipping. If they could provide you with a spec drawing that would be great. I ordered PCM Ford cooling parts from them knowing they were discontinued even though they showed them available. Took a month to get my account credited after they found out they were NLA ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 10:37am
The width of the slot in the backing plate and the top plate is smaller than the width of the spring. This keeps the springs from falling out. I can't see a way to compress the width of the spring to remove it through the top or bottom slots. As far as I can see, disassembly is the only option.  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 10:40am
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Got it! Yup, ether way, it's got to come apart. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 10:54am
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So Pete, do you have any sources for the rivets? Are they a special type with a special name to them? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 11:23am
I get mine from McMaster Carr edit: I don't see why you could not just use a punch and a hammer. You only have 4 to do. Perhaps a concave punch. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 11:58am
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Duane, if you have a moment, could you please link to the correct page at McMaster Carr for the rivets you've used (or just a part number would be fine). ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 1:28pm
Duane, Notice the "cheese head" that's formed on the rivet. I feel they do not what any movement between the plates so they really beefed up the head. They really wacked those rivets!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 1:38pm
Looks like a "Solid Rivet" is what you need. Just figure out the diameter, length, and head shape you need. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 1:40pm
Get a bigger hammer  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 93/70 ccpb
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 2:34pm
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hello raindog i have a complete engine and trans from a 62 or 63 correct craft classic all part are there but engine is stuck..it has been in dry storege for 5 yrs in my garage..750.00 call me if interested.dan 330-524-6983.ill try to get some numbars off it for you.engine block/trans ------------- what you dont want to hear from jbear and bill.you cant get in the boat till you get your minute,and they throw you back in water! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-18-2016 at 2:39pm
 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-19-2016 at 10:40am
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pardon, don't yet understand the scenario... If your replacement trans will likely not have the short input shaft, Why the bother to retain a deep hub dampner til you are certain it it needed with the longer iinput shaft of the new trans? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-19-2016 at 3:01pm
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Tom, I understand your confusion as I had the same question. The distance from the tip of the splined input shaft to the face of the transmission mounting surface is the same. The input shaft mounting plate is different and consumes the additional input shaft length. The net net is the length of the exposed shaft is the same. Also, this is why a new velvet drive is a direct replacement for a very old one. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-19-2016 at 3:25pm
Dan, is this a Gray Marine Fireball 327 engine with a flywheel aft mounted velvet drive? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: 93/70 ccpb
Date Posted: April-19-2016 at 9:15pm
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gray 327 aft bellhousing and velvet drive trans.whole engine but is stuck. call me 330-524-6983 ------------- what you dont want to hear from jbear and bill.you cant get in the boat till you get your minute,and they throw you back in water! |
Posted By: 70CC
Date Posted: April-21-2016 at 11:34pm
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Hi Steve, If you just need a velvet drive, I have spares, 71B and 71C, early to mid 60's vintage. I sent you a PM with more info. -Phil |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-27-2016 at 6:33pm
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So a plan has been formulated and put into action. Several CCFers have offered assistance with my dilemmas. A sincere thank you goes out for your concern and generosity. In the end, a new transmission is making its way from SkiDim to my home. My core could not be rebuilt. Even with a different core, the cost of rebuilding by Federal Marine Transmission is within a few hundred of a brand new unit with a 1 year warrantee. My conclusion is FMT is good and very experienced but pretty pricey. If my original transmission could have been overhauled, I would have used him to do the job. But since I was replacing with a later version of velvet drive as a core anyhow, new started to make more sense. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-27-2016 at 6:40pm
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As far as the damper, all feelers for a new or NOS part came up empty. There just are no replacement options for the deep splined hub. Upon closer inspection, the hard parts of the damper look to be in good shape. Only the springs needed to be replaced. I found a truck parts refurbisher in town who sent it out to have new springs installed. $150 later, my problem should be solved. All parts should be arriving next week. If everything goes smoothly, the Classic will be ready to roar long before the water temp becomes inviting. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-27-2016 at 6:50pm
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Steve did Skidim tell you that you need a new cooler to have the warranty in effect? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: April-27-2016 at 7:22pm
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I am aware. I purchased a new cooler from FMT. I had to give the guy some business after all the time he spent on my project. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: May-02-2016 at 6:12pm
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I was able to solve the hardest riddle of this endeavor. I found a place that could rebuild my damper plate. $150 with a 4 day turn-around time was pretty sweet considering I was stuck and had no other options. The rivets and spacer are new and look exactly like what was taken off. They cleaned it up and it looks great. Trans from SkiDim should be here on Friday.   ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-02-2016 at 6:49pm
| Sweet. Might want to post the info on the damper rebuild shop in case others need those services? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-02-2016 at 6:55pm
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Steve, Fantastic you found the place on the damper rebuild. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: May-03-2016 at 11:07am
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Good point Tim. I dealt with a local shop who sent it out to a place in Missouri. I think I figured out where it went but they may not deal directly with consumers. Local shop: http://www.abcgparts.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.abcgparts.com/ Rebuilder: http://www.uniqueclutches.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.uniqueclutches.com/ ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: June-01-2016 at 12:02pm
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The Classic was reassembled this weekend with the new trans from SkiDim, rebuilt damper, freshly tuned prop installed, new trans cooler, water tested, aligned to 0.002" and run for about 6 hours. The old one must have been slipping quite a bit the last year or so. With the new trans, the boat really hooks up well and is very smooth. My preferred cruising RPM (just enough to be on plane and bring the bow down to see over it) dropped from 2600 to about 2300. The nasty burning smell of trans fluid is now gone and the bilge remains nice and clean. In the end, I'm a very happy camper. One difference I noticed is when shifting into reverse with the new trans, it seems more "sudden" with a noticeable "thud". Is this a characteristic of a newer velvet drive design or just a brand new tight velvet drive? Not worried just curious. Thanks to all that helped me sort out this riddle. She should be good to go for several more decades. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: June-01-2016 at 1:44pm
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Nice work! Now lets see some pics! The "thud" should be an adjustment in the linkage at the transmission shifter. Basically, the trans is engaging too fast thus slamming into gear. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-01-2016 at 2:39pm
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Steve, Great news.  Regarding the "thud", if it's shifting into reverse after the throttle is starting to rev the engine, then it is a linkage adjustment. If it shifts into reverse first and then the revs increase, then it's just new. or the idle RPM is high. What is the engine idling at? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: RainDog
Date Posted: June-01-2016 at 2:48pm
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Great advise boys if I had a Morse! I have a column shift and foot throttle on the Classic. She idles at 650 RPM, nice and smooth with out the tic-tic-tic of the worn out damper. I'm sure it just because the trans is new and the friction bits are still tight. I"ll keep an ear tuned to it to see if it lessens during the summer. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1868&sort=&pagenum=1 - 62 Classic http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5242&sort=&pagenum=1 - 2002 Super Air |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: June-01-2016 at 4:10pm
Those two things are foreign to me but I'm guessing you're right then....just needs more run time! ------------- |