New guy, Newish Boat
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34721
Printed Date: April-28-2024 at 11:00am
Topic: New guy, Newish Boat
Posted By: Treybizttu
Subject: New guy, Newish Boat
Date Posted: October-02-2014 at 2:03pm
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Howdy, Picked up a 2000 Pro Air Nautique last week to start a full resto. Boat was/is in sad sad shape. http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/library/Nautique Copy and paste in your browser for pictures Story goes it was owned by a camp (so 492148098 hours on it probably) and they didn't winterize in 2012 or so. Had milky oil so they replaced head gaskets but found "the motor was bad". I haven't torn into the motor yet to see what's what but, it's all there with the exception of the FCC (which sucks since they are $$$). The distributor was out and laying on the floor and everything is disconnected including the driveshaft. So, the motor is a mystery currently. A buddy that I grew up with is coming by next week with his dad to help me inspect and tear down. Buddy runs a local race shop for legend cars and other stuff, His dad works for him but used to run a boat repair shop so I'm in good hands. Both of them have plenty of experience with 351s and inboards as well. Well, when the motor was determined to be "bad" they brought it to Buxton as a trade that never materialized so it just sat in the back lot with no cover for the better part of 2 years. Gel coat is faded and seriously oxidized. Some of the interior is salvageable and cleaned up decent. Other parts like the back sun deck are toast. Game Plan: Get it cleaned up and pretty- It's pretty clean as of today after a week worth of late nights after the kiddo went to bed.. I just want it to look decent while I'm working so my neighbors don't murder me since it won't fit in the garage with my wife's ride + all our junk. I bought a cover that is supposed to deliver today. Clean up as much as possible with the existing interior for now. Remove all the decals. Wet Sand, Buff, Glaze, Wax. Next Step: Motor and Electronics. -I snagged a battery this morning so I can put some power to it and see what is working.. (At some point some of the stock failure prone gauges were replaced with Faria units.) I'm pretty handy with 12v so I will make sure everything has juice. -I think regardless of the extent of motor being good/bad it's going to come out. The ballast plumbing is falling apart and the floor of the motor compartment is filthy from the elements. -Drain the gas. It's old and stinky and almost full  - Motor is going to be a big question mark. I will just have to update there as I can. Oddly enough the oil in it looks good. -The transmission isn't black painted anymore so the guys at Buxton said it was probably rebuilt/replaced. It has fluid in it currently that doesn't look brand new but it's still nice and cherry red. -The Prop has a bent blade. Shaft appears to spin straight and true but I can verify that. -One of the Tower Bolts that joins the halves is stripped. Need to heli-coil or fill weld and drill/tap. Once the mechanics are worked out: -Get it on the water and see what the Wife Thinks.. We have an I/O currently that she loves but I've wanted a direct drive and a nautique for a while so I'm working on her. Once it's funcitional and pretty she will more than likely change her tune. -Once I have her stamp of approval I will redo the interior, stereo, and spruce up the trailer. If the gel coat sand/buff doesn't satisfy me the same buddy that runs the race shop is partners in a wrap company. |
Replies:
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-02-2014 at 2:11pm
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welcome to the club and congratulations on your purchase :) lots of information here, so have fun getting it back on the water! |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-02-2014 at 2:21pm
Thanks! I've been reading everything I can with my limited spare time but decided I needed to register today. I'm sure I will have lots of questions going forward and this board seems to be a great wealth of knowledge. Good things I've got going: -We have a boat and a couple jet fleas currently so I don't have a deadline to get it "complete" to enjoy the water. -I got into it very cheap so I have budgetary room to work. - I like projects and "winter" (It's Texas, we don't have a real winter) is looming so I will have time to piddle. |
Dreaming wrote:Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-02-2014 at 2:33pm
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I would recommend troubleshooting the engine as much as possible while it's still in the boat. Having it hooked up to the battery, key, fuel pumps and full compliment of gauges is valuable. Definitely don't disassemble until you have done all the troubleshooting you can. Break down in minimal stages as required (I would not pull the engine if a compression test comes back good and the exh manifolds fail a pressure test, for instance). If it's not too late, make sure the battery you bought fits in the box (group 65 is what you want) and that it is NOT a (deep cycle) marine battery. A regular starting battery works well or a dual purpose if you're looking to spend $$. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-02-2014 at 2:43pm
Battery I bought is a regular starting battery and identical to what came out of the box.. Just not dead as a door nail. I won't pull the motor until we test everything we can as it sits. I'd be happy as a clam if I didn't have to build/buy a short or long block. Only thing that really temps me to pull it regardless is that I have access to an over head hoist and every single thing is disconnected at this point. Wiring harness, fuel lines, you name it... Even the motor mounts are hand tight with just one bolt in each. Motor and trans are literally just sitting there. |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: October-05-2014 at 12:40pm
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This post needs pictures... ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-05-2014 at 3:16pm
My photo bucket URL is in the 1st post. I'll attach some when I'm back at my laptop. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 11:18am
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Day #1: http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4587.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Outside Day #2: (This is after a power wash) http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4677-1.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  My assistant: http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4705.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 11:23am
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Interior cleaned up decent after a lot of scrubbing... (Pictures make it look nicer than it is.. Lots of stains and little cuts). http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4702.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Another of the interior: http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4703.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  The Mystery Motor: http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4696.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 11:26am
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Got a cover: http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4738.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  The wife helped: (i was shocked) http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4741.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Removed the "Air" followed by 1000,1500,3000. Need to compound, glaze, and wax http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4745.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 12:21pm
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And also a question... So my variable buffer is in vegas right now (long story) but I want to start wet sanding. Is there any harm in wet sanding from 1000/1500 to 3000/5000 grit and leaving the boat outside for a week or two before I get my buffer back and start compounding,glaze, wax? |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 1:54pm
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I think I would wait until your buffer was close by. The point of polishing is to remove the oxidation, so if you remove the oxidation and then don't buff/protect the surface, you may cause more sanding for yourself. that said, I am pretty OCD about shininess on my vehicles, and a week or 2 to oxidize is really probably nothing in the grand scheme of things. wax once you polish so that the fresh finish is not exposed to the elements |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 2:33pm
I'm pretty OCD myself so i will probably wait. I wish I could pull the stupid thing into the garage but our Monday through Friday house was built in the 80s so even with no swim platform and the tongue detached I'm touching the entry door to the house. Luckily once this thing is done I'll move it to the lakehouse. My barn down there is 35' long. |
Posted By: IAughtNaut
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 4:23pm
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Congrats on the purchase, and welcome to the Pro Air club. The upholstery is not original, but whoever did it did a nice job...well, the pieces you have at least. That rear sundeck goes bad quick. If you replace it, take the seams out, they are not your friend. If you're looking to replace decals, N3 and Nautiqueparts will have them. Some people don't like the graphics package on these years, I love them. Good news on the gauge replacement, that's a big cost savings for you. My only question is, is it gps, paddle wheel, or pidot? If its a paddle wheel, check where it was installed, there's not a great place to put that on this hull, and if it was done hastily, could be blocking your water pickup, which would definitely lead to a motor going "bad". Good luck, can't wait for more updates. Should be an easy sell for the misses to get out of the I/O. ------------- bring the ruckus http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5347" rel="nofollow - 2000 Pro Air |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 4:58pm
Gelcoat is extremely hart and it took years for it to oxidize to the point it's at now. A couple of weeks won't hurt it in the least. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 5:23pm
She is already coming around it was just tough at first for her to visualize a nice boat since it was so filthy and the day I brought it home; our other boat was also in the driveway all polished up and pretty. |
Posted By: IAughtNaut
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 6:22pm
------------- bring the ruckus http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5347" rel="nofollow - 2000 Pro Air |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-06-2014 at 6:32pm
As far as the vinyl goes, we can park the boat in the warehouse and experiment a little. If we can't make it look like I want I will just order some of the "OE" graphics. And now I'm curious if those pitots are in fact hooked up to anything. I don't remember seeing a paddle wheel in addition to the other items but I will again if I make it home before dark tonight. |
Posted By: kelly3carr
Date Posted: October-07-2014 at 11:27am
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Hello .. Congratulation :) I am new here and very happy to join such a group which is soo fond of boats. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: October-07-2014 at 11:43am
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There are compounds that will remove 1000 grit scratches. I find buffing easier on the arms than sanding. No sense sanding much past 1200. Even 1500 is overkill. ------------- |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-07-2014 at 4:03pm
Interesting, The last boat I did I started with just a compound after 1000 and felt like I could never get it the way I wanted. Following a friend's advise I went all the way up to 3000 grit wet sanding and then just used a finishing compound followed by glaze and wax. It was much easier for me and the end result is still looking great a few seasons and waxes later. But, that's just my (very limited) experience so I could just be making more work for myself.  Did make some progress on other items last night. Sanded the swim platform and started putting a few coats of oil on it. http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4752.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4754.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-07-2014 at 4:25pm
| Not every compound will remove 1000 grit scratches, but some will... It's all about using the right products and pads. I agree with HW, sanding sucks, ha. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-07-2014 at 5:30pm
I ordered some new 3M stuff and I'm just trying things in small sections at this point so I'll give 1000 and compound a whirl again too. |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 12:28am
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pictures of your 'little helper'...very cool. pictures of the wife buffing the boat after dark......even cooler! I may be in the minority but I have always liked the swoosh graphics. john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 12:50am
Thanks! The Wife is quickly taking a liking to it and that's just with it taking up space at the house. Once it's a runner she will be on board... The boy was sold from day one.... The wife called me at the office earlier today with him on speaker and he kept telling me, "boat clean please". Made me smile after a craptastic day at the office. He loves the lake and it's hard to peel him off of his seat in our I/O and he loves jet ski rides. I like the swoosh personally.. I think the year correct "AIR" graphic wasn't all that great but one of my designers has some replacement ideas drawn up. I'll post those once I have a few I like in PDF form Trey |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 1:30am
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I like them too and after seeing a couple of decals of mine peeling off, understand completely why they went to them ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 11:44am
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So with no belts on and no spark plugs in the motor I can't spin it by hand at the crank pulley. That was about all I did last night as my old lab decided he wanted to lose his dinner on the only carpet we have in the whole house....
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Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 1:46pm
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I had to put some acetone/atf mix in mine, and it freed up after sitting for a couple of days. I had to use a 3' breaker bar on the front pulley nut to make it spin for the first several rounds. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 1:50pm
Breaker bar was my next thought... I was curious what would work to pour in the cylinders. I thought about fogging oil. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 2:08pm
atf to acetone (50/50) or Marvel mystery oil are both good choices. when you use the starter the first time, make sure you cover EVERYTHING, as the oil is sprayed out through the spark plug holes. (yes, I know from experience, and had to clean the carpet afterwards)  fogging oil is not going to give the penetrating action you need to unseat the stuck rings. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 2:14pm
Made that mistake with a jet ski in my garage..... ONCE  I've got some painters plastic and green tape im going to make the interior look like a scene from Dexter before I start in on anything further motor related. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 3:48pm
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One thing, as far as putting a lot or torque on the crank bolt... I made that suggestion a while back in another thread, I'll see if I can find it. Anyway, I was told that's not the best way to break free a stuck engine. The logic being, that if you break that bolt, then you've got some problems on your hands. I'll see if I can find the thread because it had some better suggestions, but in the mean time, just go about it carefully. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 4:12pm
| Indeed, Brian. Pry bar on the flywheel is much preferred. Crank bolt works fine for an engine that isn't locked up. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-08-2014 at 5:08pm
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Ah ha... Last thing I want to do is make this thing worse and the leverage on a single bolt makes sense. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-10-2014 at 1:34am
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Stuck a battery in it tonight and the starting key pad lit up. Put in my code a few times and was rewarded with a steadyy green light. Bildge light came on when pressed as well. None of the motor wiring is hooked up so I couldn't try the start obviously. The horn worked a couple times but then just clicked. Part of that could be attributed to the battery just being one random one I had from who knows what that had not been moved in the warehouse for a few years. I stuck it on the charger for a few hours but I don't know how good it actually was.. Also finally crawled back under since I didn't Remember seeing a paddle wheel for the updated speedo but sure enough there is one about mid way down the keel dead center. It's behind the plug and the farthest forward water intlet. It's in front of the back water inlet but offset from it somewhat. Haven't had much time this week to tinker but I should be able to spend a good amount of Sunday messing with it after chasing Bambi with stick and string this weekend. Wooowooo for little bits of progress and figuring out what everything does on this pile. :) |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 12:27pm
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Pulled the battery out of my tahoe in stuck it in the boat. Horn Works, Got Two Green Lights on the key pad, Bilge light on the key pad lights up but the bilge doesn't run. Still nothing on the accessory pad. Is there somewhen that can test those? Annnnnnd... http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4812.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">   2 of the pistons have some gouges in them. And the rear most port side piston picture is beat to a pulp. So two starboard side pistons with dings and then the port side pictured. Cylinder wall might be salvageable. The head is also beat to crap and one of the valve seats is out and wedged against the valve itself. (I didn't get a picture). I'll pull in the next week or two and take it to a machine shop to see if the block can be salvaged. At least I had good help. http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4795.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: IAughtNaut
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 12:52pm
------------- bring the ruckus http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5347" rel="nofollow - 2000 Pro Air |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 1:00pm
I'll snap a picture one the driveway dries out from the rain... Hoooray rain. |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 1:14pm
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That dropped valve seat screams overheat so make sure you check the cooling system before running the new motor. Also how do the spark plugs look, are the electrodes disintigrated or intact? Another cause of extreme damaging heat is low fuel pressure and the FCC being missing points to a problem there. High rpms (full throttle) and low fuel pressure can melt a GT40 pretty quickly. Sounds like you probably won't reuse the heads but just for forensic measures put a straight edge across the valve stems(rocker end) and see if they are all the same height. Extreme heat will get those valves so hot they will Tulip into the head, you'll think the valves are all different lengths. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 1:41pm
Well, the spark plugs were MIA so I can't check those sadly. As far as the cooling system I'm going to replace pretty much everything as I don't want to put together a motor and skimp on keeping it cool. From the way this boat appears i would guess it has a ton of hours. The gauge decided to work last night and showed 536 hours but, they were replaced at some point. So, pretty much anything that could be considered a wear item will be replaced. As far as the heads I'd like to reuse them if possible but rebuilt. I need to get them to a machine shop to see if they are salvageable. |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 2:59pm
Just a heads up, Your machine shop is probably well aware of this but overheated small block Ford heads are known to crack between the valves. Might be hard to see in this photo but it's there. 
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Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 4:36pm
I'm sure they are but won't hurt to mention. I hope the heads and block can be re-used. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 6:12pm
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I am not sure it is cost effective to have your heads rebuilt anyway... you might check the cost of a set from Clearwater or one of the other Cyl head folks. lots of folks here have talked about GT40P heads, I am not sure if the fit works with a later model GT40 boat, but would be worth checking. My guess is that the setup time for someone who does these heads all the time is going to bring the cost down over your local machine shop. good luck! also - as a forum etiquette thing, especially with pictures, you don't need to quote the last post, as it takes up server space. it's helpful when you have multiple posts between what you are responding to and your response, but otherwise it's not necessary, just call out the screen name/name of the person your responding to and we'll generally follow the trail  |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 6:14pm
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PS, I love that your son is into the fixing :) mine has about a 15 min attention span for mechanical things... I keep trying, but so far, it's a long process
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Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-13-2014 at 6:25pm
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I think I cleaned up the quoted picture... I'm glad the boy is into it as well. His mom is coming around too now that it looks a little nicer. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-14-2014 at 11:26am
http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/IMG_4825.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> After searching and unless I'm missing something if this head is salvageable I would certainly save $$$ rebuilding these verse buying a reconditioned set from somewhere. I found a post on here that has a few different vendors for the "p" heads that run around 500-600 for a set plus shipping. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-16-2014 at 6:22pm
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Heads are both cracked. They haven't cleaned and broken down the block yet. Looks like long block ahoy. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-16-2014 at 6:30pm
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A long block with GT40 or GT40p heads gets to be pricey typically so it might be cheaper to get your block fixed up and put a set of gt40ps on it or get a small block and put a set of gt40ps on it. Don't pay the money for gt40s new or rebuilt as they are no better than the 40ps and are more expensive, don't buy a stock long block unless you are really tight on the budget you will miss the 45 ish hp on that new of a boat and it will effect resale if you cant get it to one foot speeds ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-16-2014 at 6:52pm
Machine shop I am using has another set of GT40s that are ready to go with new springs and what not. He and I looked at them before as an option if mine were bad. I would be fine with the "P"s if I need to go that route for some reason. I will for sure end up with one version or the other of the GT Heads... Not going back with an E7 or whatever came as the "base" head. Hopefully the block comes back good to save me a little coin. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-16-2014 at 6:59pm
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Joe, your thoughts this. Say you needed another block for a lefty, would it be worth while to source s late model 351 out of a truck so to take advantage of the roller block? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-16-2014 at 7:22pm
Curious myself since you linked that ad to my wanted post. My understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong but, my block is/was machined to accept a roller cam but they didn't go to an actual roller motor (ford trucks anyway) until 1996 and my motor is basically a 93-95 truck block with gt40 Upper/Lower Intake and Heads. I think I've read so much on the subject in the last few weeks I'm way more confused than when I started
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Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: October-16-2014 at 7:40pm
| If the block # above starter is F47TE it will accept roller lifters. |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 10:53am
Gary, You still have to acquire the roller lifters, the spider tray and probably new push rods as well as the roller cam. Then if you really wanted to go all out you can upgrade to roller rockers as well. Still an awful expensive upgrade. IMHO you're still going to get more bang for your buck adding P heads, an intake and a cam than you ever will with roller lifters. At least in our somewhat mild marine applications or until someone like Joe or Tim gets to making more serious HP. That's when a roller valve train can start making a difference. All SBC motors made after 87 were milled with deeper lifter bores and drilled/tapped for the spider tray to accept roller lifters. Even if the engine didn't come equipped with roller hardware. How many guys you think took advantage of that and upgraded? I'm guessing very few. Sourcing a block made for roller hardware "just in case I decide to upgrade" I wouldn't consider a factor unless you're going to upgrade. You either make the jump or you don't. At least in my feeble minded personal opinion. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 11:22am
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First off, I'd be very careful about changing too much on the induction side (heads, cam) on a gt40 as the ECM is not capable of making tune variation based on different (better performing) components. P heads are a proven deg upgrade over gt40 heads but i probably wouldn't push it much beyond that in terms of flow or cr improvements. That said, I am now with joe on the roller cam bandwagon- they're awesome. They improve both peak power and widen the powerband, and improve reliability (no chance of wiping a lobe). Tune issues as denoted above notwithstanding, the only downside is cost, which is primarily a concern on RH engines as the blanks are custom. LH roller stuff is readily available and relatively inexpensive. You can always run tie bar lifters in a non-roller block and skip the retainer entirely- this is a nice, albeit expensive ($400-500) upgrade. Or you can have a non roller block machined to accept the retainer. Either way, I'd go roller on anything I wanted to improve performance on if it can be squeezed into the budget. HIGHLY recommended, even for moderate builds. Roller rockers would be much lower down on my list of wants and are much easier to add later. Of course, this is coming from a guy who has wiped a flat tappet cam and has seen the performance difference a roller delivers. FWIW. Eddie, is your 383 roller? I can't remember. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 11:35am
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I found a stock '95 block with roller cam and lifters for my stroker project. They're out there but hard to come by. I went all new cam, lifters, rods etc. of course. I just wanted the roller set up block, spider tray and and lifter forks. |
Posted By: skutsch
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 11:57am
Tim, just curious, but are their any third party companies that make some sort of ECM that could be used that is re-programmable or let you set up a custom map. Undoubtedly the effort to build up the map for a marine application from scratch would be monumental, the obvious preference would be to start with a known good map from PCM and modify from there. Again, realizing I could get off my butt and do the research myself, but I just wondered if anybody has ever looked into it. It's interesting, for mod-ing out my snowmobile, There are a couple of devices that go between the ECM and fuel injectors, that let you modify the map to fine tune your performance. We do all the same things on that side, bigger intake, bigger pistons, higher compression heads, better flowing exhaust. Obviously with every modification, you need to adjust the fuel map. The same technology exists for outboards. Just seems like there would be similar products/solutions for auto/marine application ------------- Our http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4669" rel="nofollow - 98 Sport Nautique My Dad's 63 Ski N |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:00pm
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Look up Megasquirt Steve. If I remember right lewey is building one ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:20pm
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The reason I ask about a roller engine is simple. Someday my Shamrock will need a re power. Late model 302's should still be a dime a dozen and even 351 rollers were used in trucks. Why bother finding and using a flat tappet motor might as well up grade. They use a lefty which makes it easy too. Might just start looking soon. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:20pm
| Yep, plenty of options to set up a custom tune- mega squirt being one of them. Like you said, the tricky part is getting the base tune to start from, PCM has it locked down. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:22pm
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That guy that built his own EFI 351s for his Bayliner here used megasquirt. Apparently the PCM stuff is all locked up. You can't even see the programming let alone modify it. jbear and Orlando76 will take it from here. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:25pm
| Gary, if you can find a roller block for little $ over a flat tappet, sure. The tie bar lifters are a real nice solution (and work great on a flat tappet block) and are "only" ~$400 for a SBF. Joe and I are both running tie bar lifters on our rollers. |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 12:58pm
?? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:18pm
Try F12. |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:29pm
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Huh? I'm lost. There's a typo in there, I know as much about the female brain as I do computers, which is not much. There's no understanding their psych. Oh I need beer :30. |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:50pm
Good point Tim. Didn't even consider the whole ECM thing on an EFI engine. Yes, I went with a complete roller valve train. Retrofit roller lifters and roller rockers. Is it worth the cost (about $1200 total on a non-roller block). Yes and no. I don't have to be concerned about the oil I'm using having enough ZDDP but if that oil provides better lubricating properties over non-ZDDP oil, I find myself still using it so that's not really a benefit at this point. When I first started the engine, there was fuel delivery issues i.e. dirt from the fuel pump that messed up my needle/seat flooding the engine. Then again, after installing a new fuel pump that was putting out too much pressure holding open the needle/seat, flooding the engine. These issues only allowed the engine to run a few minutes each time I got it started before it flooded itself out which didn't hurt the roller cam at all but would've probably wiped a flat tappet cam. As for the performance, I'm sure it has to be better performance than the non-roller setup but I really can't say what that difference really netted. You also have to consider the other "gotcha's" when upgrading to a roller setup that might be overlooked. Stock valve covers are no longer usable. The roller rockers required new locking stem nuts which required taller valve covers. Granted, that's if you decide to go with roller rockers. I personally feel that a roller cam/lifters deserve roller rockers to complete the whole valve train package but that's just me. Then different length pushrods, valve springs, spring keepers, possibly spring shims, etc. etc. etc. In the case of my SBC, a new cam cover was needed for the roller cam thrust bearing. I have no idea if the SBF would require the same thing but I assume it would. Again, all these things are not horribly expensive but the overall cost is effected and needs to be considered. A block that is setup for a roller cam would be much less expensive than a non-roller retrofit type setup that I had, but I humbly feel your $400-$500 upgrade cost is still terribly underpriced if you consider all the potential "gotcha's". Not putting in roller rockers will definitely be a much cheaper overall cost. Is the performance increase worth the cost in a non-roller cam...probably not when figuring what gives you the most bang for your buck...the stroker kit or the retrofit roller cam setup (which were both very close to the same cost each for me)????? Then again, was the overall engine package worth the investment? With almost 200 hrs. since the rebuild I can honestly say ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY. Still nothing like yours or Joe's rockets but it still puts a smile on my face every time I fire it up and even more when I holler "Hit It". No regrets at all  ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 1:55pm
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Well, now I have more info to digest. As far as trying to squeeze more performance out of the boat I'm not really after that. More looking at longevity and getting the thing running. I don't know for sure if the heads my machine shop has are gt40 or gt40p but either way they will work. Obviously the upgrade to a roller motor is now a consideration as well. So rebuild questions: ARP Head Bolts worth it or stock replacement fine? The machine shop regrinds cams for "stock" rebuilds but I 100% percent don't want to do that. When I talked with him yesterday and agreed a new cam is best. I'm sure they can get me a new cam but where would you guys recommend I get one from? I would go back with stock spec cam. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 3:18pm
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For Trey .. do you need a new cam? Somewhere posted around these parts is a spec for the original gt40 cam, I am sure there is one on summit available for relatively cheap, I wouldn't change much there for the reasons stated previously. Gary, for your shamrock I would get a 50,000 mile roller 351 out of a junkyard and run the whole longblock. Not the easiest thing to find but not the hardest either- 96 broncos or f250s on www.car-parts.com used to get it done for me. If I told them I was using them for the block and didn't want a warranty it used to be about 600 delivered for an engine but it depends greatly on the area. I have been buying fully machined and ready to go stroker prepped roller blocks for around 1k shipped - not cheap but good machine work and you don't have to root around the junk yard - but like tim said you would still need all the rockers and whatnot, a whole junkyard pull out comes with all that and you can just add the cam of your choice. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 3:46pm
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Eddie, a few clarifications... - The $400-500 I quoted was the cost of the tie bar roller lifters if a roller block couldn't be found easily. This is not to be confused with the total cost of upgrading to a roller cam. - The only thing that roller cams/lifters and roller rockers have in common is the fact that both have "roller" in their name. 2 mutually exclusive upgrades that have nothing to do with one another... Other than the fact that they're both kinda spendy and make more power! - A roller cam retrofit can absolutely be expensive. I'll add valve springs to the list as well. Valve covers aren't needed, that's a roller rocker issue (see point above). We spent about $2k all said and done on ours, we would have been closer to your $1200 mark if we had a lefty like yours. - Excellent point in the break in... We had a few minor issues (fuel, cooling) getting our engine together both times we had it apart, just like you. Flat tappet got wiped, roller didn't. Not having to pull the engine out and cleaning metal bits out of the oil pan (again) were worth the upgrade cost alone! - Performance improvement is very real... When we added the roller, we changed little else (just the exhaust manifolds iirc). We saw a reliable 3-4mph gain, which is enormous. Powerband is wider too. Cam specs are totally different of course, but that's one of the things a roller buys you- the steeper ramp rates buy a lot. Joes points are spot on. None of this really applied to the OP for reasons stated previously. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 4:23pm
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Joe, I'm guessing that I would need a cam just based on what the rest of this thing looks like. This poor boat and motor have seen some serious use and neglect. I just figured a fresh new cam was a good plan as opposed to a regrind. I will see if I can dig up the specs. |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 5:03pm
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Tim, Excellent point on the reverse rotation dollars vs. standard. Big difference there that I never thought of. We're definitely on the same page with all your other points. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 6:32pm
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Trey I have a cam and lifters that came out of my '95 GT-40 at about the 475 hour mark if your interested. |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: October-17-2014 at 8:58pm
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Roger built an almost exact copies of GT40's for his Bayliner, the only difference was the ignition was a little different and he didn't use the fuel control cell. I'm working on some Megasquirt stuff, but I don't know when I'll have time wrap it up, been having a good time playing in the neighbors new to him 216V this fall. Lewy is working on a GT40 with a Megasquirt computer and there was a guy this summer on PN who had someone tune his rebuilt GT40 after he bored it too much for the factory computer to handle the changes. There are Mustang guys who can break into the PCM computer. From what I understand it is not hard to modify with some of the newer tuning software but Ford doesn't have it layed out in a easy to understand way so it's not something you want to try if your not really familiar with fuel injection tuning. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-20-2014 at 3:15pm
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So yesterday I unhooked all the fuel tank lines and moved it up to pull the factory ballast tanks. More than a few folks talked me into separate bags for the back. The fuel tank probably has 6-8 gallons in it that have presumably been in there for a few years. I will eventually need to suck it all out and replace but that lead me to a question. It's probably going to be a few months before I am ready to fill it back up..... Should I leave the gas in it until I'm ready or go ahead and "drain" it? For some reason in my paranoid head I have this notion that the tank would dry out and get brittle when empty. But, I would like some imput on the matter. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2014 at 3:45pm
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Trey, Drain it now. The tank is polyethylene and will not get brittle. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-20-2014 at 3:50pm
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Great! Thank you... It will make it much easier for the time being to work in there without the tank present. The tank will be stored in the warehouse at my office that probably won't get above 80* or less than 60* ever so I felt like it was a good environment. I wish I could just leave the whole boat in there to work but we don't have a ramp just loading docks. Doors are even tall enough leave the tower up 
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Posted By: leetudor
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 12:00am
| Put the trailer on a roll back wrecker then put in the warehouse. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 12:19am
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Haha, I like it. |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 1:58am
I will defer to Mr Orlando... john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 1:59am
F12 doesn't work for me neither... john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 2:05am
I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about here but.. I probably driven 100 of these 200 hours on this rebuild and I gotta agree....awesome. john sure wish I knew how to do multiple quotes like you smart guys. ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 11:26am
http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4859.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> Any ideas what would have mounted here? The bimini Mounts are on the inside of the tower and it has clamp on swivel racks so i wondered what these are. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 11:27am
http://s256.photobucket.com/user/treybizttu/media/Nautique/IMG_4853.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> Cleaning, cleaning, and more cleaning. |
Posted By: skutsch
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 11:53am
That looks like the same mounting connection for my High Fly board racks, the racks have square that goes over the square in the picture and you drop a pin through. Could also be a boom mount (that was my first thought), but I thought all the tower boom mount connectors wrapped around the tower legs. ------------- Our http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4669" rel="nofollow - 98 Sport Nautique My Dad's 63 Ski N |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 2:33pm
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NOw that you have everything cleared out, a pressure washer on the carpet and bilge work wonders... a little degreaser goes a long way, just make sure to not squirt any electrical components, and rinse until the soap is gone. my carpet looked worse than that, and came out clean as a whistle :) |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-21-2014 at 2:51pm
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I wouldn't have even thought to pressure wash the carpet honestly. The plan is to yank the bottom end, trans, and fuel tank on sunday after I get back from the lakehouse. It will be mostly empty from the driver seat back so I will do just that. I actually just made myself a note to snag the pressure washer before I head home sunday. I need to take pictures of my garage one day when I get home so you guys can share in the disaster. Everything is OCD labeled and in boxes but there is pretty much an entire boat worth of parts and pieces taking up one whole side of our little two car garage. I'll snap one for historical sake before I bring the rest of the interior up to my office. |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: October-22-2014 at 9:59am
| I just read through your project. I did the same thing last year about the only way I can afford a modern gt40 boat. I still have the internals from my old engine (replaced a cracked block engine with used) so if you need cam, crank, pistons, heads etc. Let me know. I had the machine shop disassemble so everything is clean. good luck looking forward to seeing your progress... |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-22-2014 at 12:03pm
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Thanks! I should have the block out and to my machine shop early next week so I will know better what I'm going to need. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 12:49pm
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Gave myself a gas bath last night... Bought a harbor freight hand pump and pumped about 12 stinking gallons out and into 3 of my 5 gallon tanks. I will spread it around to the cars in little bits mixed with almost full tanks of good gas. It didn't really look/smell as bad as I thought it would. I did manage to pop one of the stupid pump hoses off mid-stroke and cover myself in petrol. Took a shower and the wife said I still smelled like gas. My buddy that is helping me with the motor got his hoist and stand from the race shop last night so it should be a bare bildge after I get home sunday. Question about hoses: The ballast hoses were exposed to the elements in places and have basically disintegrated. The Bilge hoses were a little more covered up and look to be okay. - If I'm buying that hose in bulk should I just replace both the ballast and bilge hoses? - I know I need to measure to verify but both the bilge and ballast hoses look like the same ID/OD... Is this what I need? http://www.nautiqueparts.com/hoseballastpump-black-1-18inchinsidediameter-soldbythefoot-seecautiononnotes.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.nautiqueparts.com/hoseballastpump-black-1-18inchinsidediameter-soldbythefoot-seecautiononnotes.aspx |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 4:23pm
I made this mistake and cost myself a fuel pump in the car... mine had flakes in it that plugged up the fuel filter in the car, back pressure took out the pump. Make sure you strain the gas before you put it in, and be cautious about how bad the gas really is. If you do use the old fuel, mix about a 1/4 tank of old gas at a time
I like Borax (laundry aisle at the grocery store) or Boraxo hand soap for taking the smell out. Works great on grease, and odors, and in your laundry when you have oily clothes. My wife has a sensitive nose too
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Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 4:55pm
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I wouldn't worry about dumping the fuel in the auto. I would use a filter funnel to catch loose particles. I wouldn't bett life on it but it definitely helps. I use it every time I fill up. Mrfunnel.com Sorry to inconvenient everyone with improper link. Also throw that hand pump away and buy a generic electric fuel pump (~$36) and hook it to the fuel line going to engine. Also hook an inline fuel filter to it so that's another line of defense. |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 6:07pm
| I used a strainer to put a couple gals in my wife's car and my truck last night and filled up on my way in to the office. I'll do that a few times to get rid of the fuel. |
Posted By: leetudor
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 8:48pm
Not too sure I would use an electric pump for fuel. |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 8:56pm
 What kind of pump is in your car?http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-42s?seid=srese1&gclid=COWj9cbvw8ECFUMV7Aod1jQAwQ" rel="nofollow - Generic electric fuel pump |
Posted By: leetudor
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 9:01pm
A sealed pump mounted in the fuel so it should not spark. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 9:12pm
Lee, I too am confused. You need to do some research on fuel pumps!  They all are not in the tank!! Think marine too! Use Todd's link and read. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 9:16pm
| Isn't PCM's external? I'm not certain. I know 4 of the 5 on Yamaha HPDI's are external. Mercury too. Honda too. I assume Jo-suzki as well. |
Posted By: leetudor
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 11:28pm
| I think my car fuel pump was asked about not marine. |
Posted By: skutsch
Date Posted: October-23-2014 at 11:48pm
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I thought the electric fuel pump was in reference to draining the bad gas out of the tank... Hook the electric fuel pump to the hose coming out of the tank (since it is exposed) and then you want have to hand pump it. I thought it was a good idea. Maybe I misread it - Hhmmphh ------------- Our http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4669" rel="nofollow - 98 Sport Nautique My Dad's 63 Ski N |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: October-24-2014 at 12:34am
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You had it right Steve. I use an old Stewart Warner pump to transfer fuel when I don't use one of those siphon hoses ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-24-2014 at 9:48am
Lee, You are correct that the specific question was regarding the pump in your car. The point that was being trying to be conveyed was there are pumps made that are ignition safe. Did you:
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |