351 Windsor carb to EFI done
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28497
Printed Date: May-24-2024 at 11:53pm
Topic: 351 Windsor carb to EFI done
Posted By: E4ODnut
Subject: 351 Windsor carb to EFI done
Date Posted: December-06-2012 at 1:46am
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Hi All, I came across this site by chance and noticed a thread about converting the 351 Windsor from carb to EFI. I have done this on my engines and would be glad to share what I've learned with anyone who is interested in this sort of thing and hopefully gain some knowledge from others who have may have done the conversion as well. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Replies:
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: December-06-2012 at 3:58am
Welcome :) always good to see others who have gone through the same research. you'll probably get an earfull about having a bayliner, but if it's got a 351, that might help to ease the pain  I think the discussion of EFI has come up very recently, and you could be a good source for those who are in the process now
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Posted By: AlfaDon
Date Posted: December-10-2012 at 6:54pm
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I am one of the folks considering the EFI swap, but I usually get scoffed at because of the time and money involvement :-) I just picked up a complete EFI system off a OMC 5.0 Cobra that was on ebay, but I haven't picked it up yet to look over the parts. I know the manifolds won't work, but am wondering how much else I'll need to replace. Tell me what you did. And pics would be great too Don |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-11-2012 at 2:10am
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Hi Don, Well, there is some merit to the scoffing, but it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish and the amount of time and money you are prepared to put into attaining your goals. First of all, what engine and boat do you have, and what do you think that EFI can do for you that a well tuned, and I stress "well tuned", carb and mechanical advance distributor can't? ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: December-11-2012 at 12:18pm
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Bob, Even though we're talking about a Bayliner, welcome. You may get a little heat about it but any informative info to this group of boating gearheads is worth the price of any friendly ribbing. Thick skin is also a benfit. I myself don't own a CC but I've been welcomed by all here (or most anyway) none-the-less. There are several of us who "knows someone" that has tried this conversion. In virtually every case, the hours, money and frustration led to a very expensive EFI kit collecting dust on a shelf and a carburetor sitting where it was originally intended. This usually after an entire season.....or two....or more of watching others burning up a lot of gas in their carbed ski machines while trying to get that magical Holy Grail of modern induction to run. Sometimes just being able to get the friggin' thing started would be an accomplishment let alone getting it dialed in. The general concensus here is if you want EFI, buy a boat that came with it from the factory. I do know that any information in your EFI conversion would be of special interest to many here so feel free to post away and before anyone else says it, pics are always greatly appreciated. Also be prepared for a lot of questions. There are a lot of very sharp dudes here when it comes to what makes a ski boat go....in several cases what makes a ski boat go very fast. The fact that you've done this with a 351 is even more intreging (sp?) so the floor is yours as they say. Enlighten us. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-11-2012 at 2:31pm
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Hi Eddie, I'd welcome the questions. It was a huge project and something that very few have done, or even tried. It's pretty lonely out here and it would be nice to be able to share it with people who have an open minded interest and understanding of machinery. I frequent various marine forums and the subject of converting from carb to EFI comes up from time to time. The original poster usually just has a casual interest, looking for an easy way around carb repairs or tuning. The usual replies are negative opinions, but not by anyone who has any first hand experience. Before I launch into great detail about what I have done, and why I did it, I usually like to ask a few questions of the OP to see what his expectations are and if he has the interest and skills for the road ahead. It is not meant as a critisism, but rather some form of reality check. I have to agree with your statement about buying an engine with EFI as opposed to building one for many reasons, but that's not always a practical option. In general, on the same engine in the same application, EFI can do everything better than a carb and conventional mechanical advance distributor can do. There are several reasons for this, but the most important is finer control of fuel mix and ignition timing. The simplest form is fuel only throttle body injection. Adding electronic ignition control is an improvement on that. Batch fired port injection is better yet. Sequential injection more so. Distributorless waste spark is next, with coil on plug even better. But, the caveat is, the system is only as good as how well you can tune it, and tuning is everything. A well tuned carb and conventional distributor can be made to work quite well over a wide range of engine speeds and loads. Some carbs are better than others. Most can do a good job at medium to high speed and load but tend to be less efficient at lower speeds and loads. On this forum I would expect that most interest is in relatively high speed ski boats where the normal cruising speed will be above 3000 RPM with intake manifold pressures at about 80 KPA absolute or more. In this case I would say that any power gains from EFI would be minimal compared with a well tuned carb, and again, I stress "well tuned". One area where I can see that my experience would be of some help would be the situation where a person already has an EFI engine but the EEC-IV is defective and replacement is no longer available. The only options open are to to either scrap the EFI set up and go back to carb and conventional distributor, or replace the EEC-IV with a programmable one. There are many choices for these on the market, but I use Megasquirt because I have experience with it and I can customize the hardware and write my own custom code. This post is getting a bit long, and I don't want to bore anyone so I'll just stop here and see if anyone has any specific questions. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: December-11-2012 at 4:41pm
| I'm intrested in learning, but don't really see a need for it at this point, you have pretty much summed up how my engine spends the majority of its time. I don't know that we have had anyone here try to use something that is not plug and play (supposedly). If you have successfully made the conversion I guessing you have some experience with tuning these before you started this. That seems to be the common problem here, plug and play doesn't work or works sporadically and nobody has the experience to adjust it manually to solve the issues. |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: December-11-2012 at 5:44pm
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Robert, if you look around this site you'll note there are some guys who know their way around a motor. Do you have a site where you documented what you did and what worked/didn't work? That would be a great start. Assume that most of us on here who would be curious about this conversion have Ford 351W engines, and mostly from PCM. Many of these are also reverse rotation engines (pre-'89). I think that we understand the theory of fuel-injection and why it is better. The part we'd love to hear from you is: A. What did it take to convert your 351W? How long? What tools? B. Can we readily source those parts today? C. How many hours have you put on the engine since? D. Did you measure any performance improvements? E. What was your starting point? Some of our boats have electronic ignition already, others have a cap and rotor. ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 4:52pm
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KR, My, where to start? Some back ground might help. I'm 66 years old, an electrician by trade. I should be retired but I have too many expensive habits, the worst of which has a pair of 351 Windsors in the engine room. I've been twisting wrenches as a serious hobby since I was old enough to pick one up. About 12 years ago or so we bought a motorhome. '92 Winnebago Elante 33 on a Ford chassis, fuel injected 460 with an E4OD automatic transmission. The stock shift and torque converter clutch scheduling on the transmission drove me to distraction so I set about looking for an aftermarket stand alone programmable transmission controller. Having no success I began toying with the idea of building one. I have no formal training in electronics of computer programming but I had met a young fellow who was an electronics tech and programmer. I bought the factory E4OD manuals so I could fully understand how the thing worked and we built the “Mark I” model using a Basic Stamp chip and some peripherals to handle the math. It was slow, but it worked quite well. One thing lead to another and I found that I wanted control of the engine as well, partly because I figured out how to use an exhaust brake on it. I bought a Haltech E6K engine management system and used that for a couple of years. It was OK but I still wanted more custom control and the hardware and firmware on the Haltech is proprietary. Enter “Megasquirt”. At the time Megasquirt was fuel only, but it was a build it yourself kit and the firm ware was open source, which meant it could be customized. It uses a Motorola HC908GP32 processor and is programmed in Motorola assembly language. I bought some Motorola books and proceeded to teach myself how to program in assembler. In the mean time a fellow by the name of Magnus Bjelke developed the “Megasquirtnspark” code for ignition control as well as fuel. I took his code and modified it to work with the Ford TFI ignition. Now, all this can be pretty scary stuff, because when dealing with control at this level you certainly have enough rope to hang yourself, and I really didn’t want to destroy the engine or transmission in the motorhome. So happens my daily driver service van is a ’95 Ford E-150, 300 inch I six with an E4OD. I decided that it would be my test bed for all the changes, so I used my Mark I transmission controller and Megasquirt to gain experience. After a while I figured I could improve on the transmission controller so I built the “Mark II’ version with the design based on what I’d learned with Megasquirt. To date they have been running the van for over 8 years and over 100,000 KM with not a single controller related break down. But what has all this got to do with the 351 marine engines you might ask? About 8 years ago we bought our boat. For those of you not familiar with the 3288 Bayliner, they are 32’ from transom to bow, 29’ at the waterline, 11’6” beam and weighed about 15,000 lbs when they left the factory. They have a semi-displacement hull, which means that they will plane, given enough power, but not nearly as efficiently as a true planning hull. Basically it’s more power, more speed, more fuel. There is no well defined “sweet spot” as on a smaller true planning hull boat where you can get up on plane and actually throttle back a bit to maintain the same speed. Like her owner, “Hocus Pocus” has gained some weight over the years. She now tips the scales at around 17,000 lbs. As best as I can determine her true planning speed is about 17 knots. She would do an honest 27 knots at WOT when she was light, but now, with the added weight, about 23 is tops. The fuel burn at this speed would bring a smile to the face of any fuel dock owner. The most economical speed for any boat is about 2/3ds of hull speed. Hull speed on our boat is about 7.2 knots. That works out to about 5 knots. It takes a long time to get anywhere at 5 knots. We’ve found that over the years we prefer to cruise at about 8 knots, 1800 RPM, 56 KPA manifold pressure absolute. There is no need to use the trim tabs at this speed so there is no drag created from them. Above 8 knots full down tabs are required. If we are in a hurry we’ll bump her up to 2800, 78 KPA manifold pressure which is about 13 kts. If we are really in a hurry 3200 and 84 KPA will get us about 17 knots. Anything more than that I consider emergency power only, but she will do about 23 knots at 4000 RPM, 100 KPA, WOT. For our boating style Hocus Pocus is over powered. Fuel economy is more important to us than speed is. The original equipment engines are 351 Windsors, US marine conversion, rated 235 HP at 4200 RPM. They are quite rare in the ‘32’s as most of the gas option boats had 305 Chevs. The engines came with Holley 4160 carbs and electric chokes. The boat had relatively few hours on her when we bought her and the engines were in excellent condition. They started easily and ran well but they seemed to be running rich after start up and occasionally they would definitely over fuel until fully warmed up. I tore both carbs down, installed new “Renu” kits and made sure that all components were the ones spec’d for this application, but I still had the problems. I thought perhaps it was those crude electric chokes, so I built a pair of electronically operated chokes using a model aircraft servo motor. That helped a lot, but did not cure everything. Holley is not my favorite manufacturer of anything. It’s a personal thing. Some people like them and have good success with them, but they are not known for good part throttle economy. If I have to have a carburetor my favorite is the Rochester Quadrajet. They are very versatile and can be configured to give very good part throttle economy and very good all out performance. A lot of people don’t like them because they are somewhat complicated and tricky to set up, but if you understand them they really are quite good. I toyed with the idea of getting a pair of them and spread bore manifolds, but ultimately rejected the idea because I would have to go through a lot of work and expense and still end up with a compromise situation. The idea of converting to EFI kept poking away at my brain. I knew what would be involved and it would be a huge undertaking. Then double it because there are two engines, not just one. Programmable EFI in a motor vehicle is one thing, but in a boat it’s even harder because of the safety concerns. You have to make sure you do it right or the consequences can be disastrous. I always had the feeling in the back of my mind that part throttle economy could be improved on somehow, but not with a 4160. Ignition timing also entered the picture. The distributors are your garden variety Prestolite mechanical advance only units. The advance mechanisms were in good condition. US marine spec’d the static timing at 6 degrees crank. Total timing at 3000 RPM was about 22 degrees. This seemed too conservative for me. Finally I couldn’t stand it any more and decided to install some test gear and find out just what the air fuel mix was at all points in the speed and load range. I installed a wide band O2 sensor and hooked up a spare Megasquirt so I could data log RPM, manifold pressure and A/F ratio. As I suspected, the A/F ratio was a lot richer than I wanted from idle up to about 2800 RPM. From then on it actually got quite good until the power valve opened up when it became overly rich again. I analyzed the data logs and reasoned that if I could optimize my A/f ratio and ignition timing, in theory I should be able to realize about a 25% improvement in fuel economy at and below about 2000 RPM. I would have been happy to see a 10% improvement. I agonized over the decision. To convert or not to convert? I made measurements. I thought of all the things that could go wrong. I gave myself a few good slaps on the face, but in the end, I couldn’t resist the temptation and committed to the project. I decided to do one engine at a time for two reasons. First of all, it would give me an ideal opportunity to compare numbers on the same engines, operating under the exact same conditions, with no difference other than the engine management systems. The other thing was that if I was terribly wrong, and things went sideway, I’d only have one engine to convert back, perhaps after a major overhaul. Two years ago I did the Stbd engine and we ran the 2011 season with one engine stock, the other on EFI. After I got the tuning dialed in to where I thought it was pretty good we kept accurate fueling records. Cruising at 2000 RPM the Stbd engine got about 20% better economy than the Port. At 1900 it was about 22%, at 1700 it was close to 25%. There was no measurable difference in all out performance. Last fall I did the Port engine and we ran the boat about 45 hrs with both engines on EFI. We had no break downs or nasty surprises, but the tuning never seems to end. I’m always thinking I can improve on things a bit, but that’s really the fun part. I’m sorry that this post got so long, but I’m not sure how I could have condensed it and still convey what I did and why I did it. If anyone would like details on exactly what I did to do the conversion just fire away, I’d be happy to share. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 5:19pm
I read every word! Consider me very interested. I appreciate all the time it must have taken to write that. Can you tell us exactly what you did to do the conversion? Any photos to share would help at this point I am sure. Does your boat look like this? ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 6:00pm
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Holy crap, Bob. To be able to program your own fuel and spark curves by reading up about it is impressive. Yes, you had some help from a programmer but still, my hat's off to you. How did you plumb the O2 sensor into the wet exhaust? ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 6:15pm
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Impressive, absolutely. Problem I see is most people won't spend the time for that so they buy the kit that should be plug and play only to find out that it's not and they should have done it your way. At that point the project is done. When you consider that our boats burn similar amounts of fuel wheather they are carbed or injected its really hard to justify putting in a lot of time or money because there isn't a payback like you had. There was someone using a Powerjection 3 last year that had an O2 sensor. It was basically mounted on a plumbing spud that was stuck it the side of the riser. It sounded like it may be the plug and play system everyone is looking for, but he never came back to update how it did. |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 7:07pm
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Hi KR, Thanks for your kind words. Yup, that's the critter in it's relatively stock form. Ours has a hard top extension over the after deck. I'll put together a few photos in a separate post. This site has more information about the EFI 351s than any other I have found. I stand to be corrected on this, but it is my understanding that they were produced only for a short time as a result of some kind of partnership between Volvo and OMC. I wasn't aware of the PCM connection. I also believe that the fuel injection set up was from the 5.8L F150 Lightning engines. They were relatively rare in themselves. The upper and lower manifolds have a much lower profile than the ones used in the trucks, which is important in a crowded engine bay. Finding these manifolds is next to impossible. The controller is just a standard OBDI EEC-IV with open loop tuning parameters specifically for the marine application. There has been some success in hacking these controllers, especially in the 5L Mustangs, but there is very little support for the older truck engines and I'm almost positive none for the marine. No doubt I did my conversion the hard way with custom hardware and code, but my logic was that if I’m going to do it I’m going to do it in the best and most thorough way that I can. For my conversion I just went to the local wrecking yard and bought the upper and lower manifolds, throttle body, rails and injectors, TFI distributor and remote TFI module and E-core coil. I ended up not using the distributor because I was concerned about it not being ignition protected, more on that later. The EFI manifolds are quite tall, and things are, shall we say, somewhat cozy in my engine room. I made many careful measurements, and cross checked them many times. I even made up a mock up of the manifold position to cross check my clearances. There is no way they would fit with the throttle body forward, but I figured if I chopped it off and moved it to the back side I could fit it in. I calculated I'd have about 5mm clearance from the top of the manifold to the deck head, and an interference of about 2 mm to the right side exhaust hose. I got around the interference by notching the plenum and making an indent for the hose. I use a fuel return to tank system with an accumulator. A solid state low pressure pump draws fuel from one of two tanks for each engine. The low pressure pump outputs to the accumulator and back to tank. A high pressure pump draws from the accumulator, outputs to the fuel rails and returns to accumulator and tank. The TFI ignition expects a square wave at system voltage signal every time a cylinder comes up on compression at 10 degrees BTDC. Megasquirt takes this signal and does the calculations for spark timing for the next cylinder in the firing rotation. It doesn’t know or care which cylinder it is as the distributor takes care of these duties. Because I had concerns about the non marine TFI distributor I elected to keep the original Prestolite but just use it for spark distribution, not ignition pick up. I got my ignition pick up by mounting 8 rare earth magnets with alternating polarity, 45 degrees apart, on the harmonic balancer. I use a latching hall effect sensor to produce the initial signal and a simple conditioning circuit to output to Megasquirt. This is similar to the method Simple Digital Systems use on their EFI set ups, except that they don’t use a latching sensor. The fuel pumps and accumulator are mounted on the back of the engine and the E-core coil is mounted near the distributor. The TFI module, relay board and auxiliary board are mounted remotely in the engine room and the ECUs are mounted in the master stateroom just forward of the engine room. The left bank riser houses the wide band O2 sensor and exhaust gas temperature thermocouple. I run open loop only so the O2 sensor is just there as a tuning aid and a sanity check. I have a knock sensor as well, but it is just a tuning aid and sanity check with no active feed back. I built a small “digital dash” so I can monitor all of the engine parameters real time without connecting to a lap top. I also have potentiometers for real time fuel and ignition trim. If I want to make any permanent tuning changes I do it by connecting to a lap top and running the Tuner Studio software. I have high resolution transducers for lube oil and fuel pressures with alarms for low oil pressure, low or high fuel pressure , high coolant temperature, high exhaust gas temperature and a rev limiter. I calculate and display fuel burn in Litres per hour from accumulated injector on time and have it dialed in now so that I am within 3% accuracy or better. I also have a totalizer for fuel burn so I can see how much fuel I’ve burned since last fuel up and reset. Like I mentioned, it was a huge project, and it’s never really over, but that’s what I do for fun. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 7:15pm
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Jbear where are you??? ------------- |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 10:13pm
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I haven't heard of the Megasquirt. I'll have to do some research. Problem with most of these plug and play EFI systems is: 1) Numerous automotive kits have been very successful transformations. Marine applications are pretty much non-existent as far as I know. 2) The programming of the fuel and spark curves is a magical cloud that would make Walt Disney turn over in his grave and is reserved for engineering geeks who can spell Holley but have no idea how to change a jet or why. They can make a PC sing like a concert pianist playing Beethoven's 5th though. It's a rare bird that can do both. Congrats on making that transformation. I'm envious and would love to have that skill set. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: AlfaDon
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 10:17pm
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Excellent work Bob! Thanks for the report. I see a 20% fuel savings as huge. I can also see that there would be a huge amount of personal reward (fun) in developing a system like this. In thinking about how I use my boat, and why I want EFI, is because of low rpm performance. It seems like I spend a lot of time pulling people out of the water and circling back when teaching people how to ski. This is when I notice that the engine really loads up with fuel, and is difficult to start and operate. I also believe that the carb on my SN or any other boat Ive driven at altitude, was not set up for the altitude. Will a well adjusted carb do well in this situation? I spoke with 28_off who was using the Howell Ind. O2 sensor adapter. He said it worked fine for a year before he sold the boat. TRBenj are you following this as well? |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 10:37pm
Here's a few shots of the boat and EFi installation.          ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-13-2012 at 11:12pm
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Again, thanks for the kind words gentlemen. It's a pleasure to share what I've learned with interested people. AD, Megasquirt handles altitude compensation in one of two ways, fixed correction or constant correction. Fixed is when the ECU first powers up it takes a sample from the MAP sensor which will read atmospheric. It stores this number as barometric pressure in memory and uses it along with a compensation table to adjust for altitude. This works fine if you are not in the mountains and going through extreme altitude changes. It can be made to work well, but you just have to pull over from time to time and do a restart to get an updated barometer reading. The other method is constant barometric correction which involes the, installation of a dedicated MAP sensor to read current barometric pressure so the pressure is constantly being up dated. I use this method on both the van and motorhome and my indicated A/F ratios stay within a few decimal points of where I would expect them to be at altitudes up to about 4500 ft which is high as I've gone with them. A well adjusted carb can be made to work quite well in most situations. As I mentioned the Holley is not one of my favorites but they are relativley cheap and easy to work on. If you change altitude locations often perhaps an option would be to have individual carbs set up for specific locations then just do the swap when you arrive on site. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-14-2012 at 12:27am
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This was very interesting. I can see why some would want this,my 91 5.0 Mustang started easier than anything I have ever owned. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: uk1979
Date Posted: December-14-2012 at 8:27am
Great work Robert, thanks for sharing.........we have kits here using Megasquirt system for Rover V8 engines. ------------- Lets have a go 56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: December-14-2012 at 10:54am
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wow great thread. An engine nerds delight!! Great work. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: December-14-2012 at 12:16pm
That's my handle on some "other" forums. I'll be sticking with my poorly tuned carby but this really is interesting. ------------- |
E4ODnut wrote:Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: December-14-2012 at 3:05pm
Yes it will. The problem you have is that sometimes trying to find a good carb tuner can be a challenge in itself. Many say they can do it but few are really good. Another option is buying a book, reading and learning something. Then do it yourself. There is some very good literature out there to do just that. Look at what Bob learned by doing that. I would take an educated guess that most everybody on this site that has the expertise that they have is by doing that and then going through a lot of trial and error testing on their own. Carbs are a mysterious area that many feel intimidated by but if you take some time to dial one in, they can be extremely reliable, efficient and accurate. Carefully tuning one can be done for well under $100 in parts, some patience and most of all, some knowledge. Most people have become so spoiled by the EFI in their everyday cars and trucks that they think it's the Holy Grail and it magically will fix all their problems. I'm with Hollywood on this one. I'll stick with my carb. It runs perfectly fine. I don't need or want EFI but this is very interesting stuff. Besides, a carb sitting on top of a motor is just plain bad ass. These modern EFI monstrosities don't even resemble a motor anymore. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-14-2012 at 7:31pm
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Eddie, All true and sometimes form is more important than function. Programmable EFI isn't for everybody, especially if you are happy with what you've got. I like to compare it to being given an engine with an unassembled and uninstalled, fairly sophisticated carburettor and conventional distributor. With that carb you have included every jet, venturi, emulsion tube, metering rod or whatever that has ever been made for that carb. With the distributor you get every combination of centrifugal weights, springs and vacuuum actuators that has ever been made for that distributor. You have no tune up or calibration specs for the engine. The challenge is to get it to run as good or better than it did from the factory and not destroy it in the process. It can be challenging, but it can also be fun, in a warped sort of way, and ultimately extremely satisfying. It also helps to be more than a little bit crazy. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-14-2012 at 8:05pm
My guess is that you'd have to go through a number of locks (or over a good sized waterfall) for this to be an issue on a boat.  I skimmed the megasquirt page... seems like a neat set up. Which flavor are you using? It sounds like most of the modules can control both TBI and multiport set ups?
Can you give us a bit more info on how your ignition system is set up? Fuel is pretty straightforward. I cant see how you would bypass the mechanical advance in the Prestolite if youre still using it to distribute spark... and being able to control your advance curve would seemingly be one big advantage to a custom tune. Thanks for sharing, by the way- cool stuff! ------------- |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: December-15-2012 at 12:48am
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Robert - Very interesting reading. Just for discussion putpose, could one accomplish similar GPH savings by instlling a smaller engine? I am thinking about this speed being tops, so the smaller engine could be propped to suit. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-15-2012 at 2:05am
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Don't forget Chris a boats engine is working hard all the time.A smaller engine might have to have more throttle and then use more fuel. In a case like Roberts a repower with diesels would be the norm to save fuel but the most expensive route too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-15-2012 at 3:12am
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TR, Megasquirt has evolved a lot from the time I first got started with it. It was, and still is, I believe to some degree, open source. This means that the wiring diagrams, schematics and firmware codes were free and open for all to see, but more importantly, to modify, add, and contribute to the project in general. There were some really brilliant and talented people involved so it really mushroomed. The original MS1 was fuel only. Then came MS1-Extra which included ignition control and a bunch of other stuff. MS2 followed, which was an expansion on MS1 Extra but used a different processor and firm ware code base. The latest variant is MS3, I think, which has expanded on MS2. It has become very adaptable and versatile so that it can do almost anything for anyone. The downside to this of course, is that by necessity it has become somewhat complex. The” Megamanual” is a brilliant piece of work and covers just about anything you might want to know about EFI as it applies to Megasquirt, but it can be more than a bit intimidating. If anyone is serious about Megasquirt it is well worth your time to take several days or more to study it. I still use it as a major reference source often. I tend to do things the hard way. I use the original V2.2 board and MS1-Extra code. Sort of. It is programmed in Motorola assembly language, which I have become somewhat comfortable with. The later versions are coded in “C”, or a combination of “C” and Assembler. I don’t speak “C” so I am limited to the MS1 variants because I do a lot of custom hardware and firmware. I did try to teach myself “C”, but at my age it became too much and I had to give up. I also have a custom “daughter board” which plugs into the main board so I can take advantage of most of the additional Input/Outputs that the processor has. MS1 is still supported, but there is no more official development happening. MS2 is supported with some limited development, but the real ticket now is MS3. With MS3 and the latest Tuner Studio programming software the whole experience has become a lot easier. There are two major forums for Megasquirt, The original MSEFI and the newer MS-Extra. I don’t frequent the original any more for personal reasons, but the MS Extra forum is very good, up to date, with lots of good contributors. Another good thing that has happened is that DIY Autotune is a stocking dealer for Megasquirt and related parts. Matt Cramer is very good to deal with and is a regular contributor on the forums. I believe that they have an adapter that will allow you to plug Megasquirt right into an EEC-IV harness. Wish they would have had that when I started. The ignition system was particularly challenging. First of all I had to develop my own code to make the existing code work with the TFI ignition, but only because I was working with TFI systems at the time. I had other options for the boat, but because I had a lot of time and effort invested in TFI already, I stuck with it. TFI option is standard with the latest versions of MS. If I had to do it again from a clean slate I would probably go distributorless waste spark EDIS. You may have noticed that the Ford TFI distributors have a rather large diameter cap. The reason for this is because the advance is electronically controlled and there is no centrifugal mechanism to adjust the phasing of the rotor with respect to the appropriate terminal on the cap. The way around it is to have a broad rotor tip and lots of room between terminals so you don’t get cross firing. When you use a small diameter cap with a fixed rotor, phasing can become a problem. The usual fix is to retain the centrifugal advance mechanism and phase the rotor so it is about mid way between full advance and base timing. If you are going to err, err on the side of better phasing at higher power settings as the probability of cross fire is greater there than at lower loads, even if your phasing is more out of lead. I have mine phased at about 20 degrees and it seems to work fine. Ignition timing at lower loads and lean mixtures is especially important. One of the nice things about tuning on a boat engine is that it is almost like tuning on a dyno. You can hold a constant speed and load and fiddle with timing and mixture to see where you get your best results, then go on to the next cell on the map. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: December-15-2012 at 3:26am
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Great info Robert. I was going to wait for JoeinNY to start fiddling with the GT40 engine in his 95 SN project. I am pretty sure he will not be able to resist putting a stroker kit into that engine which would require this type of solution. I have plans to freshen up the GT40 in my 98 Sport but have been waiting for Joe to do all the hard work on a stroker conversion for the EECIV controlled engine. Interesting that they produce a compatible loom. Looks as though all the hard work has been done. Anyway Joe keeps collecting too many projects anyway. May have been at least a couple of years before that damn Joe got back to that 95SN project anyway.  ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-15-2012 at 3:36am
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SN, Fuel economy is a tough one. You really have to decide which is more important because its hard to have both. To have one, you have to compromise the other. It's very application specific. Hocus Pocus is a compromise. I get pretty good economy, (relatively speaking) and pretty good power, but certainly not the best of both. Because I cruise at low speeds and don't care much about power, diesels would be the best by far. A pair of 100 HP turbo Yanmars would give me an 8 knot cruise with a top speed of about 13 kts and use less than half the fuel I use now. Yanmars are about 25 grand a pop, plus installation. That buys a lot of fuel. A pair of EFI 3.8 GMs would probably give about the same performance with better economy than I can get as well, but I have two very healthy Fords in the stable now and the exhaust note is positively orgasmic. Some "form over function" there. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-15-2012 at 12:29pm
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I'm getting closer to understanding... Your explanation is very good. Can you talk to the "phasing" a little more? Im not entirely following the 20 deg you referenced- is that the total advance allowed by the centrifugal advance, or something else? ------------- |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-15-2012 at 3:11pm
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TR, I am enjoying the questions and am very pleased to be being able to share what I have learned, but I'd like to start this reply off by reminding everyone that I am basically self taught in many aspects of this. Engine mechanics is a serious hobby of mine, and I do a lot of research, but I don't want to come across as someone who knows all the answers. There are many ways to tackle problems. I know what has been working for me from practical experience, which I'm happy to share, but I don't want to offend anyone by coming across too strong. There. That's out of the way. Now, rotor phasing. In a distributor you have a rotating element, the rotor, and the distributor cap, which has equally spaced terminals for the individual spark plug leads. The centre terminal on the distributor is for the output from the coil. It is in direct contact with the rotor by a carbon brush and spring steel contact. There is no direct contact from the rotor tip to the individual cylinder terminals so the spark is forced to jump across this gap. You want to keep this gap as small as possible which also means that the rotor must be "phased", meaning "aligned with", as close as possible, to the appropriate terminal. This isn't an issue with a conventional distributor with mechanical and/or vacuum advance because the advance mechanism also changes the position of the rotor relative to the distributor shaft. With electronic spark timing you don't normally use any mechanism at all because a wider rotor tip and more space between terminals can compensate it for. If you use a small diameter cap, as I have done, then the centrifugal advance mechanism can be used to your advantage. The rotor will be perfectly phased probably over a very narrow range of your spark map. Most of the time it will be either retarded or advanced from the ideal position. It's certainly not ideal, because the mechanical advance curve is fixed, but it's usually close enough to prevent cross firing and makes no significant difference to the actual time that the spark arrives at the plug. How to best set the phasing of your rotor is pretty much an educated guess subject to fine tuning. The best information I was able to get, if I recall, was off the SDS EFI web site, which suggested setting it at about half of your advance range. I was aiming for a static timing of 10 degrees BTDC crank, and didn’t expect to have a total advance under any condition of any more than 40 degrees. Because I wanted less error to be on the high speed loaded part of the map I decided on 20 degrees as a starting point. I rotated the crank so it was at 20 degrees BTDC for number 1 cylinder. Because it’s pretty hard to get at the distributors in my engine room I had to make an aligning jig of some sort. I had an old distributor cap which I butchered so the only thing left was the base and the number 1 terminal. This would allow me to see when the rotor tip was aligned with the terminal. With the crank at 20 degrees, and the distributor hold down clamp loose, I just rotated the distributor until the tip and terminal were aligned as close as I could see. So far I have had no reason to change this position. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-16-2012 at 8:14pm
When I megasquirted my 75 SN's 351 a few years ago, I mounted my relay board on the intake manifold. Here's a couple pics of making the harness. Not present is the fuel pump power wire, but the rest of the harness is present. Its really not that difficult.  I thought I posted about it back then, but perhaps not. Mine is not as elaborate as the op's (mine being fuel and air only [no spark], TBI, and the ecu being velcro'd under the dash, lol), but its been in reliable service for a while, save a wonky idle air controller. |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-16-2012 at 10:59pm
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Skifitz, Good for you! Nice to see someone else venturing over to the dark side. Now the questions: Is that a GM throttle body set up? If so, what manifold are you using? I've never studied the GM TB system but I think they run on lower fuel pressure than the Ford port injection does. What fuel pump do you use and is it return to tank or something else? What version board and firmware do you use? How about tuning software? How about O2 sensor, how did you handle that and do you run open or closed loop? What kind of boat is the engine in? What's your normal cruise RPM? Any significant differences in power, economy or just plain manners? ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-17-2012 at 12:49am
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Hi Robert, I didn't mean to thread hijack. You are explaining the concepts exceptionally well, so I'll step back after answering your questions. So, I drive an old Landcruiser with full-on fuel, air (MAF), spark, and timing control using MSExtra code. I had it running on Megasquirt I(!) way back in 2003. But that's another story... My boat is a 1975 Ski with a 351w originally marinized by a company called Escort (thanks to ccfan for that information). It runs stock (Mallory) centrifugal advance distributor and an optic trigger ignition. Fuel and air are controlled by Megasquirt. Because it's fuel only, it essentially runs like a very well-tuned carb, but one that starts every time I crank it, does not get out of tune, and will run as well at Blue Mesa Reservoir in Colorado as it does at sea level. Is that a GM throttle body set-up? Yes. They flat out work, and as you can see in the pics above, it makes for an easy harness because everything is close together. If so, what manifold are you using? Edelbrock Performer 2181. So how does a GM throttle body fit? There's an adapter plate to make the GM TBI work on anything, even Fords. lol. ... they run on lower fuel pressure than the Ford port injection does. What fuel pump do you use and is it return to tank or something else? I would have stayed away from this had you not asked because the FP (unlike the wiring and lines) is not marine. Bosch in-line from a 1987(?) Ford Econoline. Pump is relatively high pressure, but you are correct about the TBI being a lower pressure unit. It returns all fuel over 13#psi back to the tank in the return line. What version board and firmware do you use? MSII v3.0 Board for sure. Firmware is 2.89xx. Not really sure b/c boat's not here and I can't go plug it in and check... How about tuning software? TunerStudioMS 2.0.6 How about O2 sensor, how did you handle that and do you run open or closed loop? No O2. Open loop. What's your normal cruise RPM? Either just above idle or at wakeboard speed, which with whatever prop I have is about 2200-2300. Any significant differences in power, economy or just plain manners? Like I mentioned earlier, it starts and runs reliably. I don't use the boat much, but it fires within a rotation every time I turn the key, whether it's been sitting for 3 months or we just landed a skier from the water. With the xtau accel, it delivers power smoothly and solidly. I think it does better on fuel than it did with that POS Holley carb (I hate carbs, especially that Holley), but I didn't do before and after tests so I'm not sure. Exhaust doesn't stink as much, and I rarely smell fuel when I lift the dog house. Now carry on b/c I'm enjoying reading your stuff! |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-17-2012 at 4:17am
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Skifitz, Thanks, but you're doing just as well yourself. So, with no O2 to give you an indication of what your A/Fs are, how did you tune your fuel map? I'm with you on the Holley, but to be completely fair they always started extremely well for me. It was just the warm up phase and low speed low load range that I couldn't get from being over rich. There was nothing wrong with the 2900 to 3300 range either. I had another 351, 4160 with a Jacuzzi jet on a smaller boat for a very short period of time. It was the same way, an excellent starter. I swear it would fire when the first cylinder came up on compression, or almost that good any way. My set up starts good too, but not that good. I think it is because my code needs 3 trigger signals to confirm that the RPM calculations are valid before things completely stabilize. TFI doesn't need any input from Megasquirt at cranking revs so I didn't think that would be an issue. Perhaps it just needs a bit more fine tuning. That never really ends, at least not for me. You are not hijacking at all. This is what I hoped my original post would accomplish. I'm so glad you chimed in because I've been scouring the net literally for years trying to find someone else who's experimented with programmable EFI on boats. Well done and keep the information coming. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-17-2012 at 2:41pm
| I installed my throttle body on a 350 in a Chevy truck and used the LC-1 wide band oxygen sensor signal to tune for 13.7-14.2 under any load at all and lean at idle. I tuned a lot. I assumed (correctly, it turns out) that the extra square inch of combustion chamber and specific engine mechanics wouldn't be terribly different when I transferred it to the 351. On the boat I set up the engine specific tables (like warm up enrichments and idle control for an engine that is fully warm at 150 degrees !!!). |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-17-2012 at 7:02pm
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Fascinating! I always suspected that at least a certain amount of "generic" tuning would be possible between engines of relatively similar size and design. You've proven the theory. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-18-2012 at 11:52am
I don't think that would work with spark, knock, etc. But for a straight air/fuel setup (even closed loop) I think it would work pretty well. |
Posted By: AlfaDon
Date Posted: December-18-2012 at 5:26pm
| Are there provisions with Megasquirt for a knock sensor? From what I remember reading about the EEC-IV, it wasn't available through all the years on the stock Ford setup. |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-18-2012 at 9:22pm
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AD, Interesting about the knock sensor. During all my automotive Ford research I never came up with anything that indicated the 351W ever had a knock sensor. The 300 and the 302 did, but not the 351W or the 460. Having said that I did come up with one mention that there is a boss about mid way down the left side of the lower intake manifold that was for a knock sensor. The fact that the PCM EFI engines have them was news to me. I believe the later versions of MS have provision for a knock sensor input and an option for closed loop ignition retard under knock condition. The problem with non OEM knock sensors is that they can be very engine specific, and placement can be very engine specific. Also the sensor signal needs conditioning to work at the right frequency and be able to filter out other noises. I do have a knock sensor on my engines but no active feed back. It's just there as a tuning aid, but I treat any knock report with some skepticism. I use the "KnockSenseMS" units tuned for a 4" bore. They have to be "dialed in" with a sensetivity adjustment so you have to induce an audible ping and adjust the sensitivity to suit. That's pretty hard to do with det cans in a tight engine room and a couple of 351s running at full song. Some people are OK with after market knock sensing but I think most tuners don't rely on them. As far as I'm concerned, if I can't hear it ping, it's not a real ping. The problem with that is that my hearing is not what it used to be. I had to employ the help of my daughter to assist me setting up the ignition on my engines. She is a young mother and they have bionic ears. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 12:34pm
Actually, all PCM motors equipped with the Protec ignition system (which debuted in '91) have knock sensors as well. This includes carb and TBI boats, not just the GT40 multiport (95+). ------------- |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 1:53pm
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I'm curious about this Protec ignition. Is there any information about it anywhere? ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 1:54pm
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I'm curious about this Protec ignition. Is there any information about it anywhere? ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 2:25pm
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The http://correctcraftfan.com/Downloads/1993_PCM_Engine_Manual.pdf" rel="nofollow - 1993 PCM Manual in our http://correctcraftfan.com/reference/index.asp" rel="nofollow - Reference Section has some info on the Pro Tec. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 2:52pm
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The PCM engines (or at least the ones I have looked at) use knock sensors screwed into the heads, with open loop control and the varying quality of gas available on the water it is a very nice thing to have. PCM might have found that they needed it to have both a well tuned and warranty safe engine: The manual states : When spark knock occurs, the Knock Sensor produces a pulsting electrical signal. This signal is put through and amplifier and then sent to the ECA. The ECA then immediately retards spark timing until knock is no longer sensed, or up to a maximum of 8 degrees retard. The engine will return to normal spark advance after the MAP sensor detects 3-4in. Hg. Change in engine vacuum. The 5.8 liter PCM setup (ford marine setup) was definitely more similar to the 5.0 automotive setup than the 5.8 truck setups. Upper intake manifold, throttle body, maybe knock sensors... all 5.0 stuff. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 3:13pm
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Something you might be intrested in from the ProTec is the sensor that went in the distributor hole. Parts aren't available anymore, but it was simple and not the part of the system that had the issues. There seem to be a handful of people here who make the switch every year so getting ahold of one or two shouldn't be an issue. Something I've wondered about that hasn't been discussed yet is how reliable is all this stuff. It's interesting from the standpoint of the person who understands and likes to tinker, but what happens for the next owner who may not feel the same way. I can see this being an issue when its time to sell. |
Posted By: AlfaDon
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 5:17pm
| How do I tell what kind of Ignition system I have on my 96 176? It has a single coil, the distributor doesn't seem to have a point set in it, unless it's under the metal plate. The distributor has a toothed wheel that I would guess is an actuator of some sort. I can't find a control box or ECU. Any suggestions? |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 6:02pm
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TX, You make a valid point and I almost didn't do the conversion because of the "re-sale" factor. In the end I went ahead with it because we intend to keep the boat for as many years as our health allows. Eventually though we will not be able to keep her in the manner to which she has become accustom and she will have to go up for sale. She will be offered for sale with the conversion in place, but nothing I have done cannot be undone. If the EFI is the only deal breaker I can remove it all and re-install the conventional set up. It would be a shame, but I expect that this will most likely be what will happen. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: AlfaDon
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 6:09pm
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Enut My feeling is that if somebody wants stock, then they can look elsewhere. Somebody who values what you have done will welcome the changes you have made. An old girlfriend once said "if they don't like my house, then they don't have to buy it. But I'm not going to change it to suit them" Don |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 6:17pm
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TX, I forgot to mention that a far as reliability is concerned it's as good or better than any normal automotive type equipment. The Ford stuff is stock Ford stuff. I've got about 8 years and over 100,000 KM on Megasquirt in my daily driver and not one MS related break down. If MS does break all parts are available cheap and anyone with basic electronic skills can repair it. The most expensive component on the board is the processor which is about 30 clams from Digikey, if I recall. I have detailed schematics and wiring diagrams for everything involved in the project as well as the source code for the firmware in Megasquirt. I have detailed description of operation for any features that aren't typical for standard MS operations, which are covered in the Megamanual Having said that, if the prospective buyer has any reservations at all those facts probably won't influence his decision. It won't be for everyone, that is for sure. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 6:53pm
Going back to 2003, I have built, installed, tuned, and driven 4 Megasquirt processors and have never had a component failure. I had a throttle position sensor and an Idle Air Control stepper motor fail, but those were stock sensors and would have failed regardless what computer was using them. But that doesn't really answer your question about how reliable all this stuff is. On a forum where electronic ignition is regarded as questionable, unproven technology, I doubt it would be possible to give a satisfactory answer, but I'm saving the crappy Holley for the next owner if he or she is of a similar mind. ;) |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 7:23pm
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Unless someone is really plugged into to boats and their stock form I doubt you will need to remove the EFI. If it works it works. Most of my friends are shocked ski boats where primarily carburated throughout the 90's and wouldnt know the difference between multiport and TBI. So if you say oh ya the engines run good and it starts and runs someone will be willing to buy. Now I dont think you are going to be able to charge more (as with most modifications). ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 7:33pm
I think TX raises a valid point. An EFI conversion involves much more than just the brain running it all- I dont think anyone here knows enough to seriously question the Megasquirt's reliability. The other sensors and components are also part of the overall system though, and as you stated, parts can fail. When theyre assembled in a custom manner (which will usually lack the full up documentation/definition that a factory EFI set up would), you darn well better know how the system works in order to be able to troubleshoot it. Are any of the aftermarket EFI brains capable of running diagnostics (OBDI or II type stuff)? I dont know the answer to that, but they would be fairly sophisticated, if they are. Most non-original modifications wont be met with a positive reaction by potential buyers when it comes time to re-sell. Such an EFI set up will undoubtedly fall into this category- moreso because it has a serious and direct impact on how the boat functions (not just how it looks) should it malfunction. I know I would most likely be uncomfortable buying a boat so equipped without being very familiar with how it was put together. I would think most buyers would be even less excited about such a conversion. But, I dont think many people considering such a project are doing so with resale in mind. Like Robert said, its not like the changes are irreversible- and it may need to done to appease new potential owners. As far as electronic ignition conversion kits go, I for one, maintain that their cost/benefit doesnt outweigh the downsides they offer in an otherwise stock engine. That doesnt mean I (or anyone else who agrees with me) has a fear of technology in general... so that comment is a little silly. An EFI conversion is likely in my future... but dont count on my installing a standalone EI kit anytime soon. Robert, thanks for the explanation on phasing- makes perfect sense now. ------------- |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: December-19-2012 at 10:18pm
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TR, Your's welcome, I'm glad I was able to help. There is no question that programmable EFI is fairly specialized stuff and a lot of people are just plain afraid of it. I think that this has more to do with the fact that it is different more than it is complicated. It's really not all that bad once you understand the principals. I read somewhere once that if EFI and the carburettor were being developed at the same time the carb would probably have never reached the assembly line because it is too complicated. True or not, it makes a good story. Modern OEM EFI systems, OBDII and later have very good methods for trouble shooting because the ECU programming is so sophisticated that it has various fall back positions and trouble codes that are set if something goes wrong. MS is a long way from that, but it does have some very good built in features. For instance, if any sensor reports values which are over or under what would be considered to be "in range", MS assumes there is a fault with the sensor or external wiring and defaults to a relatively average value which is sort of a "limp home" mode. It doesn't set codes to tell you exactly what the problem is, but it has another couple of features which are almost as good if you are reasonably familiar with how it works. First of all, when connected to a lap top and the tuning software, all real time engine parameters can be displayed on the screen. If the engine is running, but not running right, you can go through these parameters to find out what is amiss. Then there is data logging. This is a very powerful tool for tuning and troubleshooting. You just start a data log with a running engine and let it record all the parameters as the engine is under actual operating conditions. The size of the log is limited only by the memory available in your lap top. After the recording session you can play back the log in the comfort of your home and look for anomalies. I can't imagine tuning or troubleshooting with out it. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 2:45am
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I would go so far as to say that when the Megasquirt is plugged into the laptop, the laptop is an OBD tool. It allows you to see every input and output value any time you'd like -- in real time or in a data log. You would know, for instance, that something is wrong with the throttle position sensor when you see an erratic needle or, in my case, a static number as the value for % open when you are working the gas. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 8:09am
I agree and would be very leery about buying a boat that has been extensively converted with EFI. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: uk1979
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 11:11am
Most aftermarket ECU/management will have diagnostic of some kind as described above, MS is a great way to start putting your toe in the water.......less $$$ if resale is a worry to you it’s not for you....but if you like messing with stuff fill your boots as most that mess will keep the old parts and swap back to sell keeping their hoard of EFI parts for their next project or sell.  ------------- Lets have a go 56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 11:50am
Totally agree Roger!
While true, you still need some specialized tools (laptop + software + appropriate harnessing) and intimate knowledge of how the system works in order to be able to troubleshoot. Which probably wouldnt work well for a subsequent owner. If they didnt want to learn the system themselves, theyre in trouble, as its unlikely they could bring it to a mechanic and plug it into a standard diagnostic tool to pull error codes. That was my point. No doubt that by its very nature, EFI has a lot of advantages when it comes to capturing data and then manipulating it! ------------- |
Posted By: skfitz
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 1:44pm
Your specialized equipment comment reminded me of something: MS uses bluetooth so that I get real time display of all engine parameters on my cellphone in real time, along with GPS speed. It's pretty sweet. I'll take a screenshot next time I have it plugged in in the car. 
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 2:33pm
Non issue with the average boater.You guy's would be a hard sell tho. If some one has gone thru the work of installing a system and has done it like it looks a quality job the next owner would not even remotely think it didn't come that way. I don't think anyone would go to the trouble and expense to put FI on claped out boat if you know what I mean. I would agree it would be a problem after the sale if something went wrong,but no more than finding the foam is all wet and the stringers are mush because no homework was done before the purchase. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 3:43pm
I agree and disagree Gary. If the average boater doesn't do his homework and finds the foam and stringers need replacing after a purchase, he can go most anywhere to get the work done. An expensive lesson but one that can be fixed. If there are issues with that aftermarket EFI and he takes it anywhere to get some service, they'll more than likely laugh at him and say sorry, it's your problem. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-20-2012 at 4:06pm
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Your right of course Eddie,but in my defence I thought all that was mentioned was about when you go to sell. I'm just saying what happens if people don't do their homework and you know alot don't. Check the boat out and if it's a '72 with fuel injection you'd better find out whats going on ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |