99 SN GT40 Fuel Supply
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25775
Printed Date: April-28-2024 at 10:44pm
Topic: 99 SN GT40 Fuel Supply
Posted By: AMB
Subject: 99 SN GT40 Fuel Supply
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 4:21pm
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At the end of last seaon, after a couple passes through the course, my engine died when I applied power to take off. It would idle fine, but would die with a gasping sound every time I gave it gas. Couldn't even power up on the trailer. Since that time, I booght a pressure gauge and have observed some very strange readings. It will run about 35 psi, then fluctuate widly and go to zero. I removed the Regulator hose and saw it momentarily jump to 40 psi, then go through all the ups and downs as before. The pumps do not always prime, so I have been inclined to think it is a power issue to the pumps. I replaced the relays, as I had sufferred through that diagnosis two years ago, and have a two year old low pressure pump, ant-syphon valve, and kill switch to thank for that one. The plugs and distributor cap and rotor are new. The hi pressure pump and filter are new along with the FCC housing, as I developed a gas leak through the fitting on top of the old FCC when I was checking the hi pressure pump and filter. (that was a $450 ouch). I also replaced the 15 amp circuit breaker, as that seemed like it was frozen. I completely drained the fuel tank when I repacked the rudder this spring, so I am pretty sure nothing in the tank is plugging the line. I have no in line filter, only the one in the fcc. I have followed the electrical lines back to the fuses, and all connections seem clean and tight. I want to jump the low pressure pump direct to the battery, and am making up some alligator clips to go direct to the low pressure pump to see if this makes a difference. Does anyone know what terminal on the low pressure pump is positive vs negative? I am thinking I need to run off the battery to the positive post and vice versa for negative. I am thinking this might confirm that the low pressure pump is good. The other question is what else can I look at that would cutoff power to the pumps? I replaced the relay this year, as I have two spare ones. That made the pumps prime, and I thought I might have fixed it like last time, but, that was just a coincidence of the problem. What is odd is that the engine will not take gas, consistently. If the pumps are randomly running, you would think that I could at least get rpms randomly. This one is a real head scratcher. The guys from Ski Dim and White Lake have been great, but we are just shooting at the sky right now, and the season is right around the corner. My dealer is no longer in business, and the next guy is 2 hours away, and I don't know him well. Any ideas? |
Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 4:59pm
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Al, Others I'm sure can comment. I can help with one item regarding the pump polarity. Just get the Ohm meter out and check which lead on the pump is ground. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 5:28pm
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8122, I am somewhat electrically challenged. I have a meter, but really don't know how to use it very well. How would I check for ground? I have turned a few wrenches in my time, but not dealt with a lot of electrical stuff. My dad was the electrician, plumber, welder, etc.... Thanks |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 5:30pm
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Oh yea, I pulled the oil pressure sensor (smaller bell shaped senser) wire off and it is not the problem. I have read that a faulty sensor can send it into limp mode and shut down the pumps. This boat has about 400 hours on it, looks like new, and has been a really strong runner up until this little speed bump.. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 6:36pm
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Al, Set the meter to any Ohm range. What happens when you touch the two probes? If one of the probes was grounded on the block and then you touched the ground wire feeding the pump with the other probe, what should happen? What have you been using the meter for?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: harriss28
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 10:49pm
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Where do you take your boat in NW Ohio? I am in NE PA so we are neighbors. Im always looking for new lakes and camping. As Pete said, set to Ohm range. Touch the probes together, and note the reading. The reading will be the same when a probe is grounded to block and the other on ground feed wire. Shawn |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 11:07pm
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Al you can make both pumps run by shorting the end terminal of the STO connector to ground (ECC Test connector above relays). You should have 39 +- 3psi with key on engine off and 31 +- 3psi at idle. With the vacuum hose removed at regulator and engine running you should see max pressure mine reads almost 44psi. I would also check the volume of fuel the low pressure pump puts out.  ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 11:38pm
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Lewy, what is the yellowish square-looking thing in the middle of your jumper lead? This looks simple enough if I use an alligator clip with bare wire on the other end. I am 99% sure this is an electrical short some where, so if the pump runs or primes, then this would be a good indication I am on the right track. Thanks |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 11:41pm
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I am just south of Toledo. The lake is alongside the Ohio turnpike. Look at Google Ski Sites, it is The Slalom Club (I know, real creative name). My dad gave me the meter. I guess I have tested batteries with it, and that is about the extent of me using it..... |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: April-29-2012 at 11:53pm
Not my photo but it is just a fuse in case there is a short to power somewhere else in the circuit. I have just used a piece of wire but the the inline fuse is a good idea. As a matter of interest do you still have the large black fuse in your battery box? ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
AMB wrote:Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:13am
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No fuse on my battery line. I have seen that has caused intermittent problems for some, but I don't have one. Good thought though. Here is a link to a video I made of the boat running in the driveway. I removed the regulator hose, and this time, the pressure had dropped to zero, but you can hear the rpms pick up a little. When I did this when the pressure was at 35 lbs, it jumped to 40. You can hear the pumps sucking air as the pressure drops. The boat ran great and then viola, this is what it did on the lake on the last ski ride for last season. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hihpHcuNvY |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:22am
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One way to "rough" confirm the low pressure pump is working (when you jump the ECC test connector, this makes both pumps run with the key on but engine off--this is easier than jumping the pumps directly), is to listen for gas returning to the tank. The low pressure pump pumps from the tank to the FCC, and the overage flows back into the tank and you can hear it splashing (when the engine is off and the pumps are on). While using the jump, you can also isolate each pump by unplugging the other one (since they are on the same circuit). That way, with nothing but one pump on at a time, you should be able to hear if it is going on and off, etc. You can also check the voltage at the pump by using your tester in the DC volts setting and putting one lead on the hot side of the pump connector and the other side to ground and then turning on the pump circuit (don't do this with your multi-tester in Ohm setting, or you will either blow a fuse or kill the meter). Also, since you said the pressure is jumping all over the place, it would be interesting to check the pump voltage when the pressure is jumping. Of course, if you jump it, ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:23am
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Ignore the last paragraph. I was going to delete it after I changed the paragraph above it. :-) ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:54am
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I will try this out this week. If I can determine that the pumps are fine, then I can just focus on the electrical side of things, again, not my strongest area! Thanks |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:10am
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There are a number of us GT-40 folks lurking on the forums (a number of them have quite a bit of experience with troubleshooting the ECC, etc.). So I'd say you are in good hands (keeping in mind how much you are paying for this advice....) ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:17am
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After my issue with the fuel pump relay switch, I thought I had a better than average comprehension of the fuel delivery system. It would have been better if the relay would have just quit. By going bad intermittantly, it gave me a lot of false positives when I was trouble-shooting. This problem is elusive, and I have already dropped some big bucks, mainly the FCC. You can't buy just the electrical plug for it anymore, and I didn't think JB Weld was really safe, but I thought about it... I appreciate all the input. I guess I am too stubborn to drag it up to Silver Spray, at least I am learning something. |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:26am
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Sorry, I just now saw the video. First, what is that hissing noise we hear when the pressure gauge is climbing back up to normal pressure? Where is that coming from? Second, something is weird with your pressure gauge, how it is hooked up, or something. If the pressure in the rails drops to zero, the engine dies. It will not run if there is no pressure at the rails (the injectors open, but there is no pressure to push the gas into the manifold). So something is weird since it is still running (albeit loping) with no pressure indicated, but it will be helpful to understand where that hissing is coming from. Note: It sounds similar to the loping issue that a number of us are dealing with (with some, there is cold start loping, and with others, it is hot restart loping). However, with my loping, the PSI stays between 32 and 40. So I don't think it is related (a number of us are working through this), but the loping idle in your video is very similar. Anyway, make sure your gauge is on securely (tight), let us know what that hissing noise is when the pressure is moving back up. Then use the jump that Mark showed you; that will keep the pumps on with the ignition on (instead of them turning off after one second). You can then test each one (low pressure by the sound of fuel returning), and high pressure by your pressure gauge. Oh, and you said it sounded like the pumps were sucking air. I don't know if you could hear that with the pumps on and the engine off, but I'm pretty sure there is no way you would be able to hear anything like that if the engine is running. I'll watch/listen to the video a few more times in the next day or so to see if I can pick up anything. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:45am
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I was told by one of the guys at Skidim that when the pumps are starving they make a lot of noise. I have not been able to pinpoint where this noise is coming from. I do know that it was making that noise out on the lake. It is pretty loud with the box up! I have triple-checked the pressure gauge, as I too thought how in the heck can this engine keep running with no pressure. I thought maybe there is just enough coming through the pumps to keep it loping badly along. While it does this, it exhausts some black smoke as well, and smells like it is running rich. I wouldn't believe that with the pressure dropping off to zero, but I kid you not, it smells like it is running rich.. My guess is that it is almost stalling so not firing on all cylinders, and just enough gas is not getting burned up when it doesn't fire, so it is just burning it off like a rich engine situation. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 4:22am
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Like slmskrs(Gordon) mentioned not sure what sort of connection you have on your pressure gauge but zero pressure and engine still running is weird. I assume it is connected to Schrader valve on fuel rail. I remove the valve inside of this connection before I hook my gauge up as the connection does not depress the valve properly. I assume the hissing noise is there when you open the throttle? With the pumps jumped to run you should hear the pumps run without the engine and see if that noise is still there. It sounds like a vacuum leak but it might be that the mixture is way to lean. When you removed the vacuum hose to pressure regulator it should have leaned the mixture out and increased idle speed if there was enough fuel available. So it seems like it is starving for fuel. But then you mention black smoke and smell of running rich.  Could it be a poor spark problem? The TFI module is a known problem area on these engines check connections to TFI module and pull a plug and check for nice fat spark. Confirm connection and correct reading of pressure gauge and get back to us. It is a nice demonstration of the engine idle loping that Gordon is chasing. I have had that a few times myself. Sounds like a engine with a big camshaft and lots of overlap.  By the way nice colour scheme and don't let the wife know that the hot water out of the exhaust is what killed the grass. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 11:13am
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Lewy2001, I am pretty sure I am on the Schrader valve. I have triple-checked the connection due to no pressure and engine still running. If I take out the valve stem, will gas come out? Will I need to take my adapter off my gauge (that depresses the core?). The noise appeared when I was accelerating at the end of last year, and upon observation with the box up, seems to be when it loses pressure or bounces around. When I start it sometimes and it reads 35 psi, the idle is fine and no noise. When I first removed the vacume line, pressure jumped from 35 to 40psi and stayed there until the symptoms showed up. In the video, pressure had already dropped off and when I took the vacume line off, you can hear the rpm pick up a bit. I replaced the plugs and cap/rotor a few weeks ago, just to rule them out. I have not checked spark, but when we ran it on the water a couple weeks ago, it sounded like a 3,000 rpm engine that someone was turning the ignition off and on. Yes, I took the dash off and checked all fittings on the ignition switch.. I have not jumped the kill switch, but that is only 2 years old. I can check the MAPP and TFI connections, is there any way to tell if they are bad? Yea, it sounds like my old Mustang when it lopes, too bad it doesn't run like it! Thanks on the color, Masters Blue is one of my favorites, I guess I am a traditionalist. I don't like to have water puddle on the driveway when I am in and out of the boat, because I don't want to get my carpet wet, so the grass takes a hit. It grows back, antifreeze is worse. Thanks for the ideas. ------------- |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:08pm
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Al, no fuel should come out of the Schrader connection with the valve removed and the gauge in place. Leave the adapter on the end of the gauge as it is. This rules out any problem with the gauge fitting opening the valve. This is for testing purposes only. Would not leave it for any length of time that way. Need to confirm those pressure readings first both at idle and with the jumper on STO connector. Also check the output of low pressure pump as mentioned previously. This is achieved by disconnecting the high pressure pump electrical connections at FCC. Remove fuel hose from low pressure pump to FCC and place it in a container. Install the jumper to STO terminal it should pump about a US Quart in around 15-20 seconds. I have a Schrader valve on top of my FCC not sure if the new FCC you fitted still has one. The reading should be the same on the fuel rail anyway. If you have a electrical problem as you suspect the grounded jumper on STO connector should help you troubleshoot. You will hear the pumps running I would wiggle all the connections on both the fuel pump and EEC relays plus tap the connections on all 3 cct breakers located on computer bracket. If the pumps stop you will know which connection to investigate further. If you have not already downloaded the GT40 manual from the reference section do so and printout page 281 and 282. It gives you the wiring diagram for the fuel pump operation. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:14pm
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If my GT40 starts loping this summer, I'm blaming you guys for talking about it so much and jinxing it. Seriously though, as these powerplants start getting past 15 years old it's going to be interesting to see how often we start talking about them! I've seen more GT40 threads over the past few months than I have since the site launched. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:19pm
Well, I'm not going to mention that I joined in January....... Actually, other than the loping issue (which I've had for probably a decade) and the water jacket cracks in the heads (typical of a GT40), I have had to replace my low pressure pump and clean out a small screen mesh in the top hose connection at the fuel tank......in almost 1,400 hours. It has been incredibly reliable, including the electronics. Head cracks are irritating as it is a known problem, but other than that, I think it is an extremely reliable powerplant (much better than my old carb'ed PCM 351 in my old boat).AMB: A couple of additional questions while we're waiting for the results of your next set of tests. Is there any difference between cold running and warm running? In other words, does this happen when you first start it (with a hose), or does it need to warm up before it starts doing it? How long after you start it does it start having the problem? I saw in the video how when the pressure is at the correct PSI range, the engine runs correctly. So I'm interested in the timing of when it starts. For example, if it is doing it and you shut it off and then restart, does it continue, or does it run fine for a little bit before it does it again? If it does it fairly soon after you start, it will be interesting to see if you hear the pump noise and see the pressure drop about the same time when you jump the pumps. Also, as Mark said, it is a good idea to remove the shrader valve to hook up the gauge as I experienced the same problem (not properly depressing the valve). Make sure you have no pressure before you do it. I managed to get it tight enough to work, but you do not want to shear the valve off. Let us know on the above, and also the results when you jump the pumps (do you hear gas splashing back into the tank, does the sound happen (and pressure drop) when only the pumps are running, if you hear splashing, what is the flow of the low pressure pump (filling a container), etc. Speaking of starving, a problem I had previously which had different symptoms is that there is a small screen mesh in the top of the tank where the inlet hose connects. That had actually gotten plugged with dirt, etc., and it finally got so bad that while it would idle, we couldn't cruise for very long, and finally couldn't even drive through the course without it cutting out. Long story short, it ended up being that little screen--pulled it out, cleaned it up, put it back in, and everything was good. I do not recall hearing the type of "starvation" sounds that you have, the engine just stuttered and slowed. Not to say that it didn't make the starvation noise, but since I was at speed when it would happen, there could have been too many other noises to hear it (or I just don't remember....). ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:27pm
I haven't noticed if you are blowing any fuses or any wiring is getting hot. Are you sure you have a short? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 2:10pm
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If you do get it figured out, could you weigh in here: edited link: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis" rel="nofollow - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25584&title=poor-mans-gt40-diagnosis Also, have you confirmed your fuel tank is venting properly, try opening your fuel cap and see if this helps. Also, you may have one more fuel filter, under the removable floor section behind the motorbox. Some of them have this, some don't. If you do, it is a possible restriction if it's dirty. |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 2:25pm
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All good questions. I took the tank out of the boat and emptied it and blew air through the pickup. The mesh at the bottom looked clean anyway, but still throught it would be good to blow out. Also ran with gas cap off, no change. The thing that leads me to think it is electical is that the pumps don't prime with ignition on. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't, and everything I have read is they prime every time. When my pressure dropped to zero, I shut it off and listened, and no prime. I replaced the relay last week just for kicks, and it primed, so I thought maybe it was a bad relay AGAIN. But I started it up, got 35 psi, and then it wouldn't take rpm and then all the crazy pressure readings. I am thinking it could just be a bad connection or something, or maybe the low pressure pump is knocking out the relay. I have two anti-siphon valves, (I replaced one when the relay was bad two years ago), so I put the old one back on, same thing. I chased the fuel line back to the tank when I repacked my rudder and had the tank out. No extra fuel filter. That wouldn't shut the pumps down electrically, I don't think, even if bad.. I will check into some of these tonight after work. Thanks! |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 9:23pm
Sorry, I glossed over the "prime" info you gave and went off looking in other directions. I'd definitely check all of the connections, grounds, etc. especially to the relay and to the ECC since the ECC controls the prime relay. Maybe you're getting intermittent power to the ECC. Also, I don't know where it is, but I'd check wherever the pumps are grounded to. Also make sure your ground connections at the key are good. Poor grounding causes a lot of problems on these (and probably any other) boats. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 11:41pm
Yes the pumps should prime every time you turn on the ignition switch. The ignition switch activates the EEC relay that supplies power to the computer which in turn activates the short prime cycle for fuel pumps. The EEC relay also supplies the power to activate the fuel relay. So it could be either relay or connections. Changing the relay and then it worked sounds like a bad connection that you may have disturbed while changing the relay. Get that jumper wire on the STO connector and start wiggling wires and connections with the pumps running. Gordon the main battery earth is on the starter side on bell housing there is another earth point on other side of engine near knock sensor on cylinder head. The earth for the pumps would be going to one of these points. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 12:00am
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Ok guys, I turned the ignition on and started wiggling. I got back to the STO and just touched it and the pumps primed. I squeezed it together and turned ignition on and off a few times, primed every time and the pressure went to 40psi. I then took apart the connector and it felt too easy, but I did break the plastic piece on the TEST Connector. I jumped with a wire lead and the pump then kept pumping and I could hear gas dumping in the tank, and pressure was 40 psi. Trying to remain calm, as I had false positives before.. but holy crap Batman, this has been one PITA! I do have a question though, there was a smaller gray plug at the top of the pic above, that looks like it just popped out of the STO, and it is sort of hard to see if it should snap in or just rest in there with no purpose. There is another dead end looking larger gray plug, which is a the bottom of the pic above. Do I need to do something with the smaller connector? Also, I assume White Lake and Skidim carry the Test Connector? The black piece mounted on the plate with a plastic snap in fastener. THANKS A MILLION GUYS!!! WEATHER IS WARMING UP AND THE BOAT HAS TO GET RUNNING!!! AB |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 12:14am
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ok, I can't find the ECC Test Connector on any website. Is this an OEM part from CC? thanks |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 12:38am
I don't have a wiring diagram in front of me so I forgot what the wire at the bottom of the picture is (dead end looking larger gray plug). However, the top plug you are referring to is also needed with the STO to plug into the code reader that I have (takes both plugs). The wire on the top does not fit into the STO plug, it just dangles there and is used for reading codes. I don't know where you'd get a new STO plug; don't know if an auto parts place would carry them. But worst case you should be able to go to a Ford dealer and get one. It is the standard plug used for reading codes up through '97 or so on Fords, so they have to be out there. Or just go to a junk yard; there have to be plenty around. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 12:42am
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I went back out and put the Test Connector and STO back together, and saw how the small gray lead had to be put into the Test Connector. the pumps would not prime, even with wiggling. I swapped out the relay, as I have two extras and so I think my problem seems to be the Test Connector. I jumped the STO again, and the pump ran fine. I would have liked to run the boat with the STO jumped, but it was raining and getting late. Gordon - I couldn't see if the smaller gray plug actually plugged into any clips or anything, but there are two different shaped grooves on the exterior of it, and one way it went on like it was going to stay in there, and the other way was pretty loose. There is an exposed metal female type fitting, so I figured it was probably good to at least stick it up in the housing to keep it out of the elements. I will call around tomorrow for the Test Connector. Seems like that is not getting the signal crossed over from the STO connector. Does this sound right? Thanks |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 12:49am
Funny, my lawn and hedge just love my exhaust water. Probably the best area of the lawn! Maybe all those hydrocarbon minerals...  Looks like you may have found the problem. The things that still don't make sense to me are: 1. consistent frequency of the loping 2. no PSI with the engine running (albeit loping) (I'd still do what Mark said and pull the valve stem out if the symptoms persist) ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 1:46am
That smaller grey plug just may be your http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25134&title=gt40-spout-connector-location" rel="nofollow - SPOUT Connector . Did it's being in place or not in place have any effect on your loping? It's related to distributor timing. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 1:55am
Al the black shell marked EEC test that the connector plugs into is just for storage of STO and STI connectors the loose wire on the end is the STI. I would just clean the current STO connectors with contact cleaner. Very unlikely the STO connector would need replacing. If jumpering the STO connector did not start the pumps that means either the circuit for the EEC or fuel relay is not being completed. You may need to get that multimeter out and start using it to measure voltages at both relay connectors. Your problem is intermittent because it worked the second time you tried. Now wiggle the connectors when the pumps are running. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 2:09am
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Well I am really bummed now. I took off the EEC Test Connector, thinking that there was series of connectors in there that the STO plugged into, and zilch. It is just a housing to keep the STO out of the weather. Might as well put duct tape over the STO. Why did my fuel pumps prime when I jiggled the STO? It ran when jumping the STO, so that tells me the pumps work and put pressure out consistently when power gets to them. The only thing I think I can do next to make sure the pumps are okay is to start the boat in the driveway with the STO jumped. If it runs like a champ, then fuel pumps should be okay. Leaving what? A bum wire somewhere before the pump? Does the STO utilize the same wires to the pumps? What is it bypassing? Next steps?? From the wiring schematic, going backward from the low pressure pump, there is a fuel relay, a 20Amp fuse, tied in with the 60Amp fuse, then goes through a 10-way connector, and then a 20Amp fuse, then to the ignition switch. The Service Manual says that if I ground the STO and the pump works, it says to service the open circuit between the fuel pump relay and the ECA. What? The only thing between the ECA and the Relay is a green yellow wire leaving the relay and attaching to the ECA. Is the manual saying that this is probably a bad connection? UNCLE! |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 2:32am
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Lewy, the pumps ran every time I jumped the STO. They happened to prime after I bumped the STO, which I could not get to repeat after the intial priming. As it is now, the pumps are not priming with key on. I am just not sure what system is being bypassed by jumping the STO. That isn't showing up on the wiring diagram I am looking at. Maybe there is another one that shows the STO wire going around the relays, or something... That would help make it a little more clear to me what I am getting around, as that is likely what is not working correctly. Thanks |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 3:12am
The spout connector is near the distributor (actually near the oil fill cap (I pulled my distributor recently so used the spout connector when setting my timing). The one you're talking about looks the same but it is something else (I just can't remember what). ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 3:22am
Since the pumps ran when you jumped the STO (you had pressure and could hear the fuel splashing), I can almost guarantee if start it when jumped, it will run perfectly. You're getting close. Just keep moving backwards, testing voltage. The fact that it is not priming when you turn the key on, that is actually a "good" thing since it is better to be happening (or in this case not happening) all the time rather than intermittent. I don't have the wiring diagram, but having it not prime now is good for troubleshooting. Hang in there! ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:38am
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Al like Gordon said you are getting closer to a resolution. Need to confirm some of your symptoms. 1. You said that the pumps run every time you jump the STO connector to ground? 2. The fuel pumps run intermittently but mostly do not go through the prime cycle when the ignition is switched on? If the answer to the above is yes in both cases. Then the computer is not providing the earth that is required to start the fuel pumps for prime cycle. All jumpering the STO connector to earth does is provide the earth that the computer normally supplies from pin 52 of ECA 60 pin connector to turn on the pumps.(see Self Test Circuit diagram on page 279 of GT40 manual) The problem is either a broken wire in the harness, bad connection at 60 pin connector or fuel pump relay connector "86". The bad news is it could also be the computer itself. But we hope it is the previous. Disconnect the battery terminal. Remove the 60 pin connector from ECA and clean all pins with contact cleaner paying special attention to pin 52 make sure there is no pushed in or damaged pins. There is a 10mm 3/8" bolt seating that connector to the computer housing. Page 285 of GT40 manual has the pin out for this 60 pin connector. Check for continuity of wire from fuel pump relay connector "86" to pin 52 of ECA connector. Diagram states it as blue/orange wire. I will confirm colour tomorrow in daylight on my relay and STO connector as some of the colours seem to vary from the diagram to what I have on my engine. Check that pin 40 and 60 of the ECA connector are short to ground. Continuity or short is zero ohms or close to it. If you put both leads of your meter together that is short. Take note of that reading as it is the reading you want when testing. (have meter on lowest ohms range) ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 1:43pm
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Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:02pm
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I am looking at the ECA. Do I need to cut the tie strap on the rubber boot to reveal the 60 pin locations or is there another way? I took the 4 screws out that hold the ECM on the frame, and by the way, with the key on, the Son of a Gun pumps are priming. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:15pm
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Al confirmed it is a blue wire with orange tracer although it is a cross between blue and a dark green. PRIME CYCLE The prime of the pumps only occurs for a few seconds when the ignition is first turned on. i.e. The computer supplies the earth on pin 52 to fuel pump relay to start pumps for a short period on initial power on. This makes sure there is fuel available and pressurised at rail for starting. It is part of the computers program. Once the engine is started the computer will turn the pumps on all the time by supplying that earth to the fuel pump relay. If your fuel pressure gauge readings were correct in the video. The pumps were obviously stopping. It does sound like a bad connection or wiring problem because you bumped the wiring harness at STO and they started. This does not necessarily mean it was the STO as the fault could be further down in the wiring harness or connectors. Now that you have been moving these wires more this bad connection has got worse. Check the continuity of the circuit as I mentioned in previous post and get back to us. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:23pm
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Al you must of been posting as I was out checking wiring colour. You don't need to remove the computer housing from bracket. But you do have to cut that cable tie on bottom and push the rubber boot back to reveal the 10mm 3/8 retaining bolt I mentioned previously. Undo this bolt and the 60pin connector will come off. Sure sounds like a bad wiring connection problem as you have now disturbed the harness and connectors and it is supplying earth for prime cycle again. If still having problems let me know and I will go out to boat and snap a picture of 60 pin connector removal. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:49pm
| Lewy, when you say "earth", that means "ground" right? Like the negative side of the connection? |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:54pm
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Here is the 60-Pin and I will try to post a pic of the female connector as well. The whitish substance is a grease or lube. Basically, looks ok to me..??  
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Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:55pm
Slight correction if I recall correctly- The computer turns the pumps on and they stay on as long as they get a signal from the CPS. So, the pumps being on are not a timed priming event, they are just on because the engine is on and them turning off after a second is an exception to the rule that only occurs because the computer has not sensed crankshaft revolution. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 12:47am
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Joel sort of but really just semantics. The computer grounds pin 52 if it does not get a PIP signal in 1-2 secs it will shut down the pumps. So it is really part of the computer program. Al, hard to tell from picture but it does look OK assuming that the white substance is dielectric grease and not oxidisation. Earth, ground and negative (-ve) are the same thing in a 12 volt DC (direct current) negative ground system. While you have it apart I would clean with contact cleaner and reapply dielectric grease. Do the continuity tests first though. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 12:52am
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@Lewy, to test 60 and 40 pin to ground, how do I test that? I understand checking 86 to 52. Just watched a video on what to set the voltmeter on and how to check for continuity. So a little slow on the electrical testing deal... Thanks for the help. Just bare with me, I am pushing new limits.. |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 1:03am
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Ok, tested continuity from relay to 52 and no problems. Meter went to 0. Then checked 60 and 40, each going to a ground and they went to 0. Was that the correct way to test? I am just wondering if one of the breakers is having a bad connection. It seemed like jiggling stuff around back there and I started the pumps. I replaced the lowest amp breaker weeks ago, (I think it is 12.5) as the original was sort of stuck. When I tapped on it, the pump primed. So maybe somthing else on the panel? All connections including the one I replaced have liquid rubber sealer on them, so hard to tell if the connections are bad. Where is the 20 amp and 60 amp breakers, along with 10-way switch? Then there is a 20 amp after ignition switch. I have a 15 and 50 amp breaker mounted above the 12.5 amp breaker, is the book referring to those, but I have different amp breakers? These are the red buttons mounted on the plate at back of engine. Thanks! AB |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 1:20am
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That is right zero(0) ohms or close to it is good. Because this problem is intermittent and looks to be affected by wiring loom movement. You will need two sets of hands or multimeter leads with clips. While one person is holding the leads on pin 52 and fuel pump relay "86". Get the other person to wiggle the loom while you keep good contact with meter leads. You could use the earth lead you made up for the STO jumper at the fuel pump relay end with the alligator clip to one meter lead probe. At the ECA 60 pin connector you will have to just hold the meter probe. Making sure your meter leads are making good contact if the meter ohm reading increases or goes open circuit (infinity is 1---- reading). You have a problem with a broken wire in the loom. Checking pins 40 and 60 to ground was just to make sure the computer was getting a good earth. Check and clean the two battery earthing points at rear of engine anyway if you have not already done so. Almost there Al hang in. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 1:33am
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My helper is in bed already, so I guess I will call it a night. I understand what you are saying, so need to wrestle up another meter, as I have 3 but only one seems to be working. Maybe I blew the fuse in them or they have a loose wire too!  I am looking over the manual and there are quite a few tests to make, but first I will have to figure out how to use the meter. There are a few good youtube vids out there, but they are slightly different than my meter, and my multi purpose meter, which is new, doesn't seem to be working (or more likely I am not using the right plug ins and settings). Sure glad the weather is still not so hot! thanks for all the help. I feel like I am getting somewhere, even though your signature tagline sums it up. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 1:49am
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Al the 60amp(Main), 20amp(Fuel Pump) and 12.5amp(EEC Computer) breakers are the red buttons on computer bracket. You cannot press them in (reset) unless they pop due to excessive current flow. The 20amp breaker in manual was superseded by the 15amp breaker in later PCM GT40 models(FCC). The circuit breaker terminals have all been coated with red liquid insulation. 50? sure it does not say 60? Ten way switch? you mean the 10 way connector which is the heavy wiring loom that goes back to the dash area (item 7 on Fuel pump diagram). The 20amp fuse marked as 8 in wiring diagram is the main ignition breaker on dash. This is all the power side of circuit and is working fine. It was proven by the pumps running consistently whenever you grounded the STO connector. That is for the pumps to run power had to be getting through both relays and the rest of the circuit. You did give the loom a wiggle while that STO jumper was in place and the pumps kept running right? Al don't get side tracked yet get back to that continuity check of fuel pump relay earth wire (blue/orange) with wiring loom being wiggled. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 1:54am
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No, I didn't wiggle anything when I had the STO jumped. That sounds like something I maybe shoulda tried... Well, the ECM is apart and I will continue testing tomorrow. What you say about the power side makes sense when I stop and think about it. It may say 60, it is getting late! I know it is not 20 though, so I must have one of the newer FCC setups.. Mine is real new, in like 2 months old! Springing that leak is still getting me ticked, as that was no where near the problem, and $450!! Thanks AB |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 5:59am
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$450 for a new FCC hope that included the high pressure pump and filter. The meter will probably have a 9V battery in it, flat battery? Make sure you plug the leads into the correct terminals on meter for what you are trying to measure. Post a picture of your meter to confirm. Continue with testing of the continuity of fuel pump earth wire while jiggling the wiring. If it tests OK. Clean both sides of 60pin ECM computer connector, reapply dielectric grease to female side of connector. You only need to do it on the used pins. It is obvious which pins are used when looking at female side. Then reconnect everything and put the jumper back on STO and with pumps running do the wiggle test on all wiring to relays ECM and tap wiring on back of cct breakers. If the pumps stop at any time take note of what was being jiggled and go from there. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 3:38pm
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Yes, that price included the high pump and filter. They don't make the old black screw on style. One of the fittings on the new FCC was not fitted to the older fuel line going up the rail, but you can take out one from the old style and change it out. I will chase some more wires tonight. Thanks AB |
Posted By: east tx skier
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 5:26pm
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Since I haven't seen it mention yet, I'll tell you what I think it is. Have you checked (or just replaced) your antisiphon valve on the fuel feed line on top of the tank. My boat did this exact same thing 2 years ago and that was the fix. It just did it again last week. I pulled it off while on the water and worked the little ball around a bit and it ran fine after that for another couple of sets before gumming up again. My boat sat a lot last year due to the drought. And the ethanol blended fuel just gets that much more time to gum up this little $13 part. I have mentioned this in several thread, but your symptoms are 100% identical to what I have experienced and the antisiphon has been the culprit each time in my case. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2383&sort=&pagenum=7&yrstart=1996&yrend=2000 - 1998 Ski Nautique (Red & Silver Cloud); GT-40; Perfect Pass Stargazer; Acme 422. |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 7:52pm
Oh- it's YOU! AB from TWSF? Nice to see you here! That really sucks about the old FCC parts not being offered anymore, but it must prove that the old design was flawed with that epoxy wire plug thing and not worth making parts for. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: east tx skier
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 8:33pm
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Putting 2 and 2 together. Sorry, AB, you've heard my antisiphon woes already. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2383&sort=&pagenum=7&yrstart=1996&yrend=2000 - 1998 Ski Nautique (Red & Silver Cloud); GT-40; Perfect Pass Stargazer; Acme 422. |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 8:43pm
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Yep its AB from the WSF etc... Texas, at the onset of the problem, the pumps primed, so I thought of that antisiphon valve, filter, high pressue pump, etc.. I swapped out the asv with my spare. I take them off and blow electrical parts cleaner in there or braker cleaner, and no impact on the problem, which appears to be a loose wire or bad ground on something at this point. Any pump priming is just random. |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 11:46pm
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I put the ECM back together, and the pumps primed with key on. I then jumpered the STO and wiggled every wire I could find on the back of the engine, no pump disruptions. Wheeled it out on the driveway, and althought the pumps primed every time with key on, the pressure jumped all over the place again. I jumped the STO and that didn't smooth it out either, and then it stalled. On top of that, my earth battery terminal cracked when I reconnected it.. After my engine stalled, I tried to restart a few times, not excessively either, and my battery died. When it rains it pours. I greased the bearing buddies and getting ready for a drive up to the dealer. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 12:20am
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Al did you complete the "wiggle" continuity test of the fuel pump relay earth wire? Remove valve from fuel rail schrader valve before reconnecting pressure gauge? I can almost feel your frustration. I know you are not comfortable with multi meter. Wish I was closer would like to see the resolution to this problem first hand. Do you know anyone who has some experience with electrics and can handle a meter? Maybe there is some CCfan's close by who can help you. Randy-in-Ohio is a great bloke that I met at GL in 2009. He would be able to help you but not sure how far Canton Ohio is away from you. The dealer maybe the last resort but I would make sure they are familiar with the GT40 before I wasted money paying for them to learn. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 12:59am
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Lewy, yes I seemed to reach my peak, and then when the battery died and the clamp broke, I was about ready to buy a Mastercraft. I have cooled down some now, but still thinking I don't have the time to dink with this every night after working 10 or 11 hours. My wife wants me to paint some rooms in the house and mulch the yard. Last night, I tested the continuity of the relay to pin 52. While doing it, I wiggled the big bunch of wires under the ECM. It didn't move the needle at all. I have inspected the wires and do not see any nicks or cuts, did not feel any heated areas. I moved the wires around on the circuit breakers. I grabbed the wires running to fuel pump and wiggled them. How can the pumps prime, and then run like crud? the pressure gauge is still hooked up as I had it. When I prime the pumps a few times, it goes to 40psi. when running today, it seemed to read consistent until the engine was missing, and during that time, it bounced all over down to zero and back up to pressure.. I jiggled wires while the boat was running and I didn't seem to pickup any changes. I moved the STO around some, and thought it seemed like it made some change, but still pressure was all over.. The STO is just a dead end terminal isn't it? I don't know how good Silver Spray in Fenton Michigan is. My old dealer is closed. I have never needed the dealer for maintenance before... I could take the ECM apart and do the 60 and 40 ground while wiggling. I am pretty sure I wiggled the relay and 52 check for continuity.. Could the ECM be bad? This just isnt making sense.. I guess the low pressure pump could be bad too. I am rally wondering if I have more than one problem.. When I say the pressure jumped all over, the engine was missing and hissing again.. as it did in the video.. |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 1:57am
I feel just like Lewey; I'd be happy to help do electrical troubleshooting. If you want to trailer it to the San Francisco area, just let me know. Boy, you are obviously stressed/frustrated when you think you should buy a MC. My quick low pressure test is to listen for the fuel return splashing, but if you haven't done the flow test into a container, that would be a good idea. My old pump was okay, but the flow was a bit low (I didn't have a low pressure test gauge to see what the PSI was). However, my problem wasn't at idle, it was under load when the low pressure pump couldn't keep up. One thing telling to me is that even when you jump the pumps to the STO, you still had the problem. With the engine off, you have continual pumping and pressure when jumping. However, when running, the pressure goes all over the place (per your previous video) even when jumped. So it could be a ground connection (same symptoms when jumped and not jumped when the engine is running (and things are vibrating)), an intermittent short that seems to happen due to the vibration when running, or something with the computer. However, what still bugs me is (I just watched the video again): 1. PSI dropping to zero and staying at zero but the engine keeps running. No logical explanation for that. When you tested this evening, did the engine die when it hit zero PSI, or did it still run for a while? 2. I noticed that the loud hissing sound we here is happening while the pressure is going up. If that is the sound of the pump sucking air, the pressure would not be going up. So something different is going on there. Have you been able to get a better idea of where that sound is coming from? If you watch from 0:29, the engine is running fine from about 0:05 up to that point. Then you hear a click, the pressure drops, and engine starts dropping. The hissing then "changes" to a different hissing, the pressure goes back up, the hissing stops, and then the pressure drops. I think you need to go back to the hissing sounds and the action of the pressure gauge (while still considering a short or other wiring issue). First, the sound seems to be coming from the spark arrester area (throttle body) since it was the loudest in the video at 0:15 just when you were passing the spark arrester and the hissing started and the engine smoothed out and ran normal until 0:30. Also, note at 030, there seems to be a "click" (like a big relay or something else), followed by the first type of soft hiss, then, the loud hiss starts, PSI goes up, etc. Also, the loping from 0:30 to about 0:45 is very uneven, but the loping stabilized at a frequency from 0:45 on (and then it sounds like my hot restart loping--the difference being that when my engine is loping, my PS fluctuates between 32 and 40psi, which is caused by the different manifold vacuum pressure during the peaks and valleys of the loping RPM). Your PSI goes to zero (again, don't see how that is possible). I certainly agree that if you are going to take it in, that you confirm that the dealer has a lot of experience with a GT40 first. If it was me, I'd go back to the hissing, clicking, and other noises we hear on the video and I'd find the absolute source of each. Again, this could all be a ground/short or computer issue, but since there are other things going on besides the loping, I'd want to trace back these noises to their source, and assuming there is something electrical that is causing these noises to happen, I'd then trace them. Also, one other test I'd do is to go ahead and confirm the + and - terminals on both pumps, and I'd actually jump them directly to the battery, and then start and run it. That bypasses everything. Then see if it runs good, or if you get the clicking/hissing, drop in pressure, or loping. If so, it is NOT an electrical connection to the pumps. So my two cents. Bypass everything and run it with the pumps both connected to the battery, and then if you still have the problem (including dropping PSI), find out for sure where those noises are coming from. Then let us know. We don't want you to have to take it in if we can help it!! But I understand the frustration (maybe I'd get frustrated enough to buy a Malibu, but never a MC). :-) ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 2:06am
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That is a good idea on direct wiring the pump. The noises are really hard to pinpoint. In the old days, I took a funnel with a plastic hose attached to it and listened for odd noise in an engine compartment. Maybe that will work, I just might need a larger funnel now that I am getting older! You are correct on the Malibu vs MC, but at the moment, I was on the dark side.. AB |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 2:17am
 Really!! I'm LOL! That's a good one. I'll have to use that one on some of the MC owners in our club!I believe Harbor Freight has a mechanic's stethoscope for cheap. Haven't picked one up yet, but I'm finding the hose bit doesn't work as well (as I'm getting older too). Hope the pump jump to battery tells you a lot and the noises can be isolated. I'm getting frustrated with the electrical stuff (so you must really be frustrated), so focusing on some mechanical stuff that doesn't make sense for me is a good diversion (even if it just eliminates some stuff). ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 9:07am
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It seems odd that this time the boat stalled and then would not start. No sputter at all. Pressure gauge was at 40. So gas was there. I pushed all the breakers in too. What keeps troubling me is the boat ran fine last year,mand then wham, all this. It is hard to believe a loose wire or ground would cause all of this aloof a sudden. My WAG is that I have some sort of part failure, or a couple things. For sure power to the pumps was or is an issue but why no fire after the stall seems troubling. I did not crank that long on the battery, unless running the jumped STO takes more power than I give credit. What killed my battery so fast? I didn't feel any hot wires. The battery charged back up within a short period of time on my charger. All questions I have been dwelling on. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 11:46am
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Al it could be a bad computer. But my guess is still a bad connection. With the pumps priming and not priming intermittently after disturbing wires it really points to that. Just need to back track a bit. You may be over it so disregard following if so. If the Fuel pump relay earth wire to ECA continuity tested OK with jiggling of wiring harness. We can rule out that hopefully. How did you end up getting the meter leads connected while moving wiring loom? You need to make sure the connection of leads is good so you can see if the wiggling was causing the high resistance reading on meter or it was just the meter leads having a bad connection at test points. With the STO jumper installed and fuel pressure gauge connected. Without valve inside Schrader housing. I dont trust the readings on your pressure gauge until you do that. The fuel pumps kept running while wiggling wiring loom, relay connectors and tapping circuit breaker terminals. And the fuel pressure stayed around 40psi. Correct??? This will confirm that pumps are running and there is fuel available in the rail. The flat battery could just be a combination of the age of battery combined with the loss of charge over winter layup period. Cranking without starting is another issue especially if you have 40 psi fuel pressure at rail. I chased a intermittent hot start problem all summer. I purchased a http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3145-Ford-Digital-Reader/dp/B000EW0KHW" rel="nofollow - Ford Code Reader (this is what the STO connector is really for) to help isolate the problem. They are inexpensive and may be useful in the future. With the help of the code reader I was finally able to fix my problem. Just confirm the above points to yourself to make sure you are not missing or misinterpreting the symptoms. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 12:42pm
Something about this came up on PN recently: http://www.planetnautique.com/vb3/showthread.php?22582-Leaking-Fuel-Control-Cell-%28FCC%29&p=178191#post178191" rel="nofollow - http://www.planetnautique.com/vb3/showthread.php?22582-Leaking-Fuel-Control-Cell-%28FCC%29&p=178191#post178191 They make some kind of retro kit. I also noticed a retro kit at White Lake Marine (Nautiqueparts) http://www.nautiqueparts.com/kitfccpassthruretrofit.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.nautiqueparts.com/kitfccpassthruretrofit.aspx Is that the same thing you are talking about? |
Posted By: east tx skier
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 2:00pm
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I asked my local dealer about cleaning out the asv and reusing it. He says he has tried it several times, but that once they get sticky, even with cleaning, they tend to get sticky more easily. He hasn't had any luck getting them cleaned and back into service. I'm at the point where I will be changing them out like an impeller, if only to avoid the seemingly regular issues with it on the water. My boat sits more than I would like, which certainly doesn't help the problem. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2383&sort=&pagenum=7&yrstart=1996&yrend=2000 - 1998 Ski Nautique (Red & Silver Cloud); GT-40; Perfect Pass Stargazer; Acme 422. |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 3:22pm
Hmph. I had the leak in 2006 and they sent me the replacement wiring harness for the FCC. AB had the same problem and they said they no longer offered the part so he bought a whole new FCC! If they are offering some sort of retrofit now that's terrific. http://www.planetnautique.com/vb3/showthread.php?5547-FCC-leak-and-the-fix-Thank-you-Plowman-s-Marine&highlight=fcc+leak" rel="nofollow - My original PN post ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: crobi2
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 3:30pm
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Shot in the dark, but I wonder if there is some debris/clog in the fuel rail that is intermittantly blocking the schrader valve and that part of the rail. Is there a schrader valve on the opposite rail that you could test pressure from? ------------- C-Rob 2000 SAN |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 3:49pm
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I was wondering if I should take the fuel line going up to the rail off and then try to blow air back through and out by the FCC. I could try that. It has to be a very small chance that something got past the low pressure pump filter, the FCC filter, and up to the rail.. Could be coincident with the fuel pump not priming and shutting down to zero though... |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 3:55pm
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I also noticed a retro kit at White Lake Marine (Nautiqueparts) http://www.nautiqueparts.com/kitfccpassthruretrofit.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.nautiqueparts.com/kitfccpassthruretrofit.aspx Is that the same thing you are talking about?[/QUOTE]  Yes! Too bad they didn't have the kit available last year !! I bought my FCC from White Lake. They even called PCM on it.. maybe I got something started? You all can thank me!! Send donations my way!! At least I can get an adaptor for my old FCC and it might be worth something on Ebay or Ski it Again.. |
Posted By: crobi2
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 4:18pm
What made me think of it was the fact that some FCCs had deterioration in the fuel line going from the high pressure pump to the outlet on the FCC. This problem generally presented though as complete loss of pressure. If that hose has deteriorated, it may be possible that you are loosing pressure there, or something has passed through to the fuel rail. EDIT: Sorry, I just reread that you have a new FCC, so I guess the only possibility is something that came from the old FCC before you changed it out. ------------- C-Rob 2000 SAN |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 4:34pm
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I think the fuel lines are braded, so collapsing one would be hard. I have thought of a line collapsing, but don't see or feel any soft lines. My anti syphon valve was a year old last year when the problem started. I may check the ground on the ECM and wiggle test, but we have mid-80's today and I should be skiing vs wrenching in the garage!!!! |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 4:36pm
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Have you run it off of a remote tank yet, just to totally rule out fuel supply? ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 4:54pm
I feel you here, Its supposed to be nice all week/weekend and my boats at FFM for a transmission rebuild. I guess I should have got it up there sooner. Who knew. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 6:15pm
That's actually interesting in that I had the outlet hose from my high pressure pump in the FCC develop a pinhole that caused a loss in pressure (that took a while to find!). The hose was deteriorating, and since it is after the filter, anything coming off the hose would get pumped into the rails and to the injectors. I don't think that would cause these weird symptoms, but anything is possible (and something I might want to look at with my hot start loping problem). I still want to know where the hissing sounds come from and what happens when you run it while the pumps are jumped directly to the battery. I'm not a betting man, but would expect the engine to run fine with no problem with the pumps directly connected to the battery (meaning an electrical problem). If the engine still exhibits the problems with the pumps wired direct to the battery, then a look at the hoses, junk in the rails, etc. would be a next check item. Even so, gotta figure out what the hiss is, the clicks when the hissing starts, etc. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 9:51pm
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I took the ECM stem out again. Tested the relay and 60 and 40 to ground with wiggle test. No breaks. Also wiggled the main ground on back of block. Tested relay purple/red and is over 10 volts like manual sates. So does that mean all the in lime breakers are good tool? What is the breaker box that the manual alludes to? It says to install breaker box and then test. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 11:01pm
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Al the breakout box is a connector that allows you access to the connectors of the 60 pin ECA connector while it is still connected to the computer. Al have you confirmed yet this yet.....
and this also.......
Trouble shooting problems like this is just logical thinking but you must diagnose and confirm before moving on !!!!! ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 11:35pm
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I havent checked the output of the low pressure pump. I think I should do that test outside the garage, and that won't happen tonight. Mabye late Saturday or Sunday. I am tied up until then... Should I try to start the engine and test the schrader pressure with the valve out or just jump the STO? When I jump the STO, with valve in, I see 40 psi continuous. Only with engine running does it jump around.. I spoke to the dealer in WA tonight, and they said to check the fuse off positive battery, which I don't have, and check the kill switch. I can jump the kill switch, but it is only 2 years old. I have wiggled it around some while the pumps don't prime, and didn't seem to change anything. They also gave Silver Spray high marks for working on GT40's, so if I don't figure this out over the weekend, it seems like they could be a final sanity measure.. |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 11:49pm
I agree with Lewy. I still don't trust the readings on the gauge since EVERY time my PSI has dropped to zero, the engine stops dead. Definitely start it with the schrader valve out and the gauge on it. Since you have the gauge on now, just press the release button on the gauge to bleed down any pressure, then remove the gauge, remove the schrader valve, and reconnect the gauge. If it then still exhibits the symptoms (no reason why it wouldn't), the I'd jump the pumps to the battery and repeat the same engine-on test. If the symptions are still there, then I'd figure out where the clicks and hissing are coming from. (I know I'm saying it over and over again, but it's bugging me that I can't figure out where those sounds are coming from since they are indications of the problem). ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 11:52pm
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FYI, if the engine is off and the pumps go on and off (wiggling wires, etc.), the PSI is going to stay the same since the bleed down is slow. Pressure should never drop fast if the engine isn't running. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 11:53pm
Do it first jumpering STO but don't leave out the wiggling. If that tests OK. Do it with engine running. Don't forget that low pressure pump output test though. The WA dealer seems to know his way around GT40's he gave you the 2 most common faults. For interest could you take some pictures of your wiring around the power assist relay. It will probably confirm for me how PCM modified the wiring when they removed the inline 50 amp fuse in battery box. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 11:54pm
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What is the power assist relay? Sorry. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-04-2012 at 12:22am
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It is up underneath the bracket that holds ECM near the fuel pump and ECC relays. The main battery +ve cable runs to it and then to starter motor. It is the same starter solenoid that earlier models used. Oops I should not have sidetracked you. Stay on track with above posts. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-04-2012 at 1:18am
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Here are some pics of the panel, Schrader, and my home made lake setup. The STO and 60 PIN coupler are not in place.   
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Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-04-2012 at 1:22am
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What color line is postive on the low pump? I imagine that getting that crossed wouldn't be a good idea! Thanks |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-04-2012 at 4:18am
I don't know without testing. Fastest way is to unplug the connector. Then with your multi-meter on Ohms, first make absolutely sure the power is off on the boat. Touch the two leads together to make sure you are getting zero or nearly zero resistance. Then put the one lead somewhere on the engine (ground), and the other lead to one of the connector pins from the relay. If it is zero or almost zero resistance, that is the ground side and the other side comes from the battery. You can then see how the plug from the relay plugs into the plug to the pump, and therefore tell which side of the pump side plug needs to go to ground, and which side needs to go to the battery. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-04-2012 at 4:25am
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Let me clarify (it's late and I'm tired) Fastest way is to unplug the connector. Then with your multi-meter on Ohms, first make absolutely sure the power to the engine, etc. is off (key out of ignition, etc.). Touch the two meter leads together to make sure you are getting zero or nearly zero resistance. Then put the one lead somewhere on the engine (ground), and the other lead to one of the pins on the connector that comes from the relay. If it is zero or almost zero resistance, that is the ground side and the other side comes from the battery. If it is infinate resistance check the other pin, since the one that has no resistance is the one that is negative (goes to ground), and the one with infinite resistance is the one that comes from the battery through the relay. You can then see how the plug from the relay plugs into the plug to the pump, then follow the positive and negative wires from the relay side plug (since you now know which one is which) to the plug on the pump side, and that will tell you which pump side connector pin needs to go to ground, and which side needs to go to the battery for the direct-to-battery pump, engine start test. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-04-2012 at 5:59am
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It will not be simple to jumper the plugs from fuel pumps to direct +ve and earth as they have nice waterproof style connectors with the pins recessed behind housing. Would almost need the correct male or female connector to make sure of good contact. HIGH PRESSURE PUMP CONNECTOR  It is a valid test but I would only contemplate after what we discussed previously.
and this also.......
------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-04-2012 at 1:50pm
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First, I agree with Lewy; pull that schrader valve out and put your pressure gauge back on. I will bet that once you do that, when the pressure drops to zero, the engine dies. I might do the direct battery bypass test before I did the low pressure pump volume test simply because the second one can be messy and lots of fumes. But it needs to be done (I resisted doing on my boat and my problem at the time ended up being the low pressure pump--it seemed to work, but volume was not where it was supposed to be--I did the same test with the new pump, and what a difference in volume and pressure!!). As for the direct-to-battery jump test, I don't think it would be too hard to jump the pumps. I can't tell from the picture which one is to the pump and which one is to the relay and I don't remember which is which. but I've jumped these types of connectors many times. I don't know what the diameter of the pin holes is, but if the pump side plug is the one at the top of the picture (female pin), all you need to do is to buy some lamp cord or any 16-18 gage wire and strip the ends. You then insert the wires into the inside of the pin holes and tape them securely with electrical tape. On the other hand, if the connector to the pump is the bottom connector in the picture (male pins), you could either get some very small alligator clips from Radio Shack, or just shove the stripped ends of the wires into the hole around the male pin, then tape them there with electrical tape. That should be fine for the test (all you are doing is an engine test, not an in-water test (so no vibration that might pull them out). Just make sure you don't trip over the wires while doing the test and pull them out of the plug!! I jump stuff like that all the time (had to do it on a hot water water circulation pump in one of my cars (pumps coolant through the heater core). For this "in the driveway" test, that should work fine since the purpose is to see if you get the wide swings in pressure (the hissing noise, clicking, etc.) if the pumps are wired directly to the battery. You'll want to jump both at the same time just to be sure. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-06-2012 at 7:49pm
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I put everything back together, after checking continuity of some of the items like relay to 60 pin, 60 and 40 pins to ground, etc., both relays are over 10 volts, etc.. Started it up and ran ok, but seemed to cut out as I was giving it a pump of gas.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qB1jUNXqo" rel="nofollow - First Test Run Pumps were priming, etc. Then I ran again, primarily wiggling everything and when it cut out, the pumps were not priming at all. At the time, I was wiggling wires behind the 60 amp breaker. I think it was just coincidence, as I could not replicate. I could jump pump to STO and they would run and I could hear gas in the tank returning. You can hear the hissing sound again, and as far as I can tell, it is coming out of the air breather. After this stall, then engine would crank and no fire. I jumped the pump on STO and got the pressure up, but still no fire, not even a sputter. I jumped the kill switch, and no different. Seemed like the engine had no spark, the pressre on rail was 40. ?Let it set, changed out relays, and then pumps primed, but same result as video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVCz2DGcvdQ" rel="nofollow - Test Run 2 I also changed the non-pump relay just for kicks, no difference. I noticed two things, there was a platic plug on top of manifol in back that has a tube attached to it, this was out of the manifold, so I plugged back in, and no change. This is very easy to remove and I probably did this while wiggling wires. Second, there was a wire connector that was not plugged together, I have no idea what it does or why it wasn't connected, I plugged it together and no change in performance. What is this?  I guess another thing, I unplugged the low pressure pump wires, and took apart the plug, and I tested for continuity to see which was ground, and they both act as if they are ground, meaning, the meter went to the right all the way, like it does when you complete a circuit. Shouldn't I have gotten volts on one and ground on another? I turned the key on, so should have had power, right? Oh well, enough for today, I am still in a good mood. I am 100% convinced that there is something that is cutting off power to the pumps on a random basis, and I also believe that power to the ignition system is also getting cutoff, to explain why the engine will not start when there is 40psi on the rail.. Now if I only had a clue what it could be! |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 12:54am
Al now I am starting to get frustrated.  Did you perform the test that I asked you do do before you run the engine????? The video shows no more than what your original one did. Same gasping sound and zero fuel pressure. If you can get video of below tests that would be ideal. Now I will say it one more time.  Please confirm following
and this also.......
------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 1:30am
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Yes when I jump the STO, the pump runs, pressure is at 40, not 35 as the video shows when the motor runs, and I wiggled every wire in site, along with the 2 negative grounds on the back of the block. I cannot get the pressure to change or pumps to not run when it is jumpered. No I did not do the output test, my thinking was that my problem seems to be the pumps not running at all, not that they have variable output. When the pressure starts bouncing around and engine gasps. 9 out of 10 times when this happens and I turn the key back on, the pumps do NOT prime. Would the low pressure pump run randomly on / off or just have reduced output when going bad? My thought was that the pump motor would either run or not run, and when I jumper it, the pressure seems to stay up with no fluctuation, so I deduced that it is a ground or power wire shorting, or a switch/sensor or something not working properly. It was just my WAG while I had a couple hours to work on it today. I did some research on the pump output test, and I see 10 seconds and 16 ounces, and 15 seconds and 1 quart. Not sure which one is correct, it would seem that if 10 seconds = 16 ouces, then 20 seconds would = 32 ouces or a quart. I can do this test if you think a bad pump can run/prime intermittantly. I just thought the non-priming indicated something else was shorting out. I don't know why both sides of the wiring on the low pressure pump were acting as though they were ground wires... that I am wondering about. The low pressure pump has a red and a black wire on it, connected to green/yellow and a black wire, so I believe the postive is red and ground would be black. Lewy, if reading these symptoms of the pumps not priming you feel that the pump test is still a go, I will check it this week. and the other reason I didn't test volume was that when the engine stopped running, after the pressure bounced around, the pressure on the rail went up to 40 after I jumpered the STO, and the motor would not fire at all. It seemed like there was no spark, and the pressure gauge said there was 40 psi in the rail, so that to me meant there was gas present. |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 2:58am
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Al, I can't tell from your answer above whether you pulled out the schrader valve pin and reconnected the fuel pump. Like Mark (Lewy) said, the second video seems to be the same as the previous video you sent, so I need to confirm that this new video was taken with the schrader valve out. Also, on your first video today, it was interesting that you said that it was cutting out when you gave it gas; I have to admit that I couldn't hear it in the video; it sounded okay. But was more interesting is that the fuel pressure stayed within specs, so if it was cutting out at the higher RPMs, it wasn't due to low fuel pressure (again, assuming the schrader valve was out). Please confirm; I need that info to "process" your current results. If it is any consolation, I got the hot engine loping slightly yesterday, but as usual, we were in a hurry to pull rides (the wind was coming up), so I had no chance to test. On the other hand, since I know it is heat-related, the comment I got from a number of MC owners is, "just open your engine compartment and let it cool". Problem with that is while it stops it from happening, it doesn't solve the problem. I want to know the source and then fix it, not bandage it. Oh well, we'll keep plugging away at it (and your problem as well). ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 9:55am
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Al yes still run the low pressure output test. Just so you can rule that out as a cause for your problem. As slmskrs Gordon mentioned can you confirm if valve was removed from Schrader Valve body? When that pressure gauge went to zero. You have confirmed that with the STO jumpered and engine off you can move, wiggle and jiggle wiring without stopping pumps. This confirms that the power side of the fuel pump circuit is fine. You also previously proved that the wiring from fuel pump relay to pin52 of ECA connector was good. So the problem must be the earth that the computer is supplying to the fuel pump relay from pin 52. I think you may have done this before but do it again. Start and run the engine with the STO connector still jumpered to earth. The pumps should continue to run and fuel pressure should remain at around 35psi at idle. If the engine continues to run correctly with correct fuel pressure it confirms that the earth on pin 52 from computer is the problem. So it is sounding like a ECM computer fault. But there is one more issue and that is the PIP signal from distributor could be the problem and the computer is shutting down the pumps(by removing that ground on pin52) because it thinks that the engine has stopped. The second problem you seemed to have developed where it will crank but not start even with 40 psi fuel pressure. This may also be related to the PIP sensor because it is the signal that not only tells the computer the engine is running but also generates the spark with the TFI unit and computer. It would be nice to see if your computer has any stored codes for loss of PIP output. Do the above tests and report back. It may be worthwhile purchasing that code reader that I linked to earlier in thread to help isolate the fault. It will most likely be cheaper than any other engine part you ever buy. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: harriss28
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 9:17pm
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Make your own scanner http://www.troublecodes.net/Ford/" rel="nofollow - Homebrew scanner |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 10:05pm
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I tested with the valve out of the Schrader. I could not remove the one in my gauge, but I blew air through it, so have to assume that air pressure was getting through it. With STO jumpered, I started the engine and let it idle. It didn't sound loopy, but I would say it sounded a little rougher than when it is running tip top. Just my ear telling me. As soon as I gave it a little gas, slowly trying to build rpm, it cutout, and I observerd no pressure drop on the gauge like I did before. It was hard to restart, acting like it was flooded, but it did start and the same happened again; missing and sputterring and then cutting out. All the while, the gauge reading about 37 psi on the gauge. This sort of confirms my suspicion that a fuel and ignition problem is happening, simultaneously, right? I didn't do the volume test, as the gauge while the pump was jumpered, measured a very steady pressure. Is this necessary at this time? I also ordered a Code reader, pre-post of how to make a homemade one. Should have tomorrow. Do I just plug into the STO, turn ignition on? Let me know how to use. Thanks. Any test for the PIP? If it is an ECM pin 52 error, I suppose that means I need a new ECM? Where is the best place to buy one of those? I don't even see it at the normal part places. |