My 87 Nautique won't start.
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21934
Printed Date: April-27-2024 at 3:18pm
Topic: My 87 Nautique won't start.
Posted By: PNALEWAJK
Subject: My 87 Nautique won't start.
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 12:43am
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I have a 1987, 2001 Ski Nautique, with a 351ci that I'm getting ready for the summer, but it won't start. It ran fine when I pulled it out in the fall. I've narrowed it down to there is no spark at the plugs. Going backwards, I cleaned the points, and have spark there now. The problem seem to be not getting spark out of the coil. If I unplug the coil wire for the distributor cap, and try to jump a spark off the coil wire.., I get nothing. I've cleaned the connections, but still no spark. I even pulled the coil out of my'61 Vette and tried that in the boat and got the same results...., nothing coming out of the coil!
I don't know what else to do. Anyone got any ideas...? Thanks, Pete ------------- Corvette Pete |
Replies:
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 12:50am
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Pete - What do you mean when you say you have spark at the points? They aren't supposed to spark. Maybe you have a bad condenser.
------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: PNALEWAJK
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 2:26pm
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Joe,
Of course there is spark at the points. Every time they open and close they will spark. That's probably voltage off the battery, my problem is that I'm not getting anything to the plugs... That would come off the coil... ------------- Corvette Pete |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 2:39pm
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Pete,
Do you have a ohm meter with a pretty high range? Ohm out the secondary side of the coil. Yes, you will get a small spark at the point set but a bigger one if the condensor is bad!! BTW, SNobsessed is Chris and not "Joe"!!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: PNALEWAJK
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 2:58pm
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Hi Chris,
Sorry about the name. I wouldn't know what to look for as far as the ohms on the coil (not even sure what the "secondary side" is). As I said, I connected a working coil to the system, and that still didn't produce a spark when trying to jump it to a screwdriver. So, it seems like a bad connection somewhere... I know this has got to be something simple, but I just don't know where to look. ------------- Corvette Pete |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 3:10pm
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For your reading pleasure:
http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html - http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html I was hoping to cherry pick some wisdom out of that article and put it here but I find it all pretty confusing. There does seem to be some good info on points and the role of the condensor etc. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 3:46pm
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Pete,
Is the point set opening? Remember you will only get the spark out of the coil when it opens up the ground side of the coil. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: PNALEWAJK
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 3:53pm
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WOW...! Now that's information..! Perhaps a little more than I need, and a lot more than I understand.. However, it seems like everything points back to the condensor. So that's my next try. I'll let you know if I have success. ------------- Corvette Pete |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-02-2011 at 4:09pm
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Disconnect the condensor just to test for spark. It's only purpose is to protect the point set from arc erosion. If it's shunted to ground, it will have the same effect as the point set not opening. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: June-03-2011 at 10:08am
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identical problem yesterday, a little arc at the points from me manually opening and closing them and no spark at the plugs. the coil was the problem.
it will be one of 2 things, the condensor or the coil ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Rockster
Date Posted: June-03-2011 at 10:15am
Run a hot wire to the +coil, and make sure the coil is grounded on the - side. If it fires up you will eliminate the coil. Did it to me last week the same problem and it was the condenser, brand new from Nautique. I have since done away with the points and now have the Igniter II w/ flamethrower II epoxy. 
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-03-2011 at 11:20am
Im not sure if youre describing how the coil should be connected, or if youre describing some sort of "test" to make sure its good, but either way, the suggestion is a little misleading. The negative (-) side of the coil shoud not be grounded, as it should be connected to the points. If the (-) side of the coil is grounded, it will never fire. ------------- |
Rockster wrote:Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: June-03-2011 at 5:04pm
Love points. Would not change a thang.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-03-2011 at 5:58pm
Lance, Looking at your engine pictures, it doesn't look like you went to a complete EI distributor. So, you'll love the conversion when it goes out on you in the middle of the lake!! I hope you carry a spare.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Rockster
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 1:15am
I have not installed anything yet it is still in the box. But in the EI description @ Pertronics basically it asked for distributor descriptionor numbers on the dist, meaning IBM 7008 prestolite. Not meaning to sound to stupid, this Igniter II is for this dist. I do not have to change the whole distributor do I? and as for the coil red is hot from the points to the coil and to clarify negative side ignition wires. The jumper direct from the hot on the battery is just a test wire for the coil. The engine should fire this way at least mine did, thus eliminating a defective coil and pointed me at the condenser. hope this is worded better. 
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 2:21am
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Pete - How are you coming on this problem? Did you test the coil? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 9:41am
Lance, I think you should spend some time reading. Here's the link Brian provided. http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html - http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html It will give you a better understanding of + and - wiring. Then, you won't confuse others!
EI distributor conversions are notorious for failure. Some worse than others! As mentioned, if it goes, it will leave you stranded. With a point set, you can at least clean it up and make it back to the dock/ramp. A complete EI distributor is the route to take. However, what are you trying to gain getting rid of the point set?????? Have you done engine mods requiring the ignition upgrade or are you just thinking abot the "bling" factor!!!
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: PNALEWAJK
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 10:02am
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Picked up a new set of points and a condensor today. I'll let you know if this solves the problem. ------------- Corvette Pete |
Posted By: Rockster
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 1:05pm
Sorry everyone, did not mean to misinform anyone. I do need to read closer. I was admitted to the hospital and truly expected to have all these parts installed when I originally posted, now they on the workbench. But this 14 day treatment has everything on hold. again sorry for the issue, thoughts from my brain to the keyboard don't come off so well. I'm new at this and just need to read and listen to all of you more. 
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 2:10pm
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Lance,
No need to worry. As you mentioned, most of the issue was probably in the wording. All you need to remember is the positive comes from the battery via the ignition switch to the positive side of the coil. The negative side of the coil goes to ground via the point set which opens and closes the ground energizing and de energizing the primary side of the coil. I wish you the best in you recovery. I hope they fixed you up. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Rockster
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 5:19pm
| The only reason I decided to go EI, is when we finally got back to the dock and my house we were not sure what we (my brother and me) did to get the engine to fire. all we really did was loosen the screw at the condenser pull the wire and then reconnect it and then she fired right up. not beng sure I thought EI would be the way to go. However my brother did say that points and condenser is a good system. As well I thought EI would be much more reliable. Guess not from what I'm reading. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 5:38pm
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Lance,
Your condenser must be bad and shunted to ground so you always have power to the coil. By disconnecting it, you allowed the current path through the coil to open via the point set. It's when the primary power to the coil is disconnected that you get spark to the plugs via the distributor. Read that link of Brian's. The only purpose of the condenser is to protect the point contacts from erosion by reducing the arcing when they open. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: PNALEWAJK
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 7:34pm
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Interesting. So you're saying that if I take the condensor out completely I should get spark (enought to burnout my points if I leave it that way)at the plugs? What if I don't..? The new points and condensor didn't change anything. A couple of other thoughts have crossed my mind. I get 12v at the + terminal of the coil. I'm having difficulty getting a reading on the - side. Is it possible the the coil itself (the outer shell) is not grounded properly? ...or does it need to be...? The second thing is my battery is getting pretty weak..., is it possible that that would cause a weak spark ot the plugs..? Pete ------------- Corvette Pete |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-04-2011 at 9:26pm
Pete, First, review the linked site that Brian posted. I took a look at it and found it's really a very good logical explanation of how a ignition system works. Lots better than I could explain in words!!! Yes, address your battery as well as all the cables and their connections. You need a good starting battery and good cables/connections before you do anything. As far as the "reading" you get off the - side of the coil goes, you are reading all the resistance of the primary side of the coil. Tell us more about how you are reading this?? (from what to what?) You should not be seeing 12 volts on the primary side of the coil. The ballast resister should be knocking it down to around 9. Again, tell us where you are getting the readings from. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: politicallycorrect
Date Posted: June-05-2011 at 2:06pm
I would never imagine converting and electronic ignition to points...but if it came with points they are easy enough to troubleshoot. Plus I love feeling like Macgyver anytime I pull out the sandpaper and file the points and varoom! a running engine. ------------- Skin grows back...fiberglass doesn't!! |
Posted By: PNALEWAJK
Date Posted: June-05-2011 at 7:50pm
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Hey Guys,
I don't know if this qualifies as a "Macgyver Feat", but it's running..! I don't know if it's the new point and condensor, the cleaning of the terminals, the weak battery or what.., but he's what I did to finally get it going. I gave up trying to follow the spark or the voltage. I re-connected everything, brought my wife's car up to the boat and connected jumper cables. At that point still no start. I then pulled two spark plugs and sprayed starting fluid in the hole. Put the plugs back in, and cranked the motor. While it didn't start, I got a couple of pops. That told me I had spark. I did that a couple more times, and it fired up. Thanks to everyone who offered help. It did keep me going, ad the boat is running now. One more question..., with the motor running, my voltage gague is showing -5 volts. Is it the alternator, the battery or both that need replacing...? Thanks again...!!! ------------- Corvette Pete |
Posted By: 72 ski antique
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 5:00pm
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Peter B.
I hope you see this. You ARE the guy with the answers. My question is generally in line with this forum topic. I'm not good with following the forum rules, cause I don't understand how it works...my appologies to all for that. anyway... My 72 Ski Nautique was repowered to a Waukeshaw 351W before I got it. I assume early 80s. It probably has less than 100 hours. I just bought a new Mallory magnetic distributor YLM554DV after messing up the original a few years back. It has sat dry for about 5 years. This weekend I got the distributor and coil installed. It started and is running rough. My firing order is not the same as a 351 Windsor that I look up on line 351W 13726548. Looking around the forum I saw someone call 18456273 a good order. Looking from the back forward my prop turns right. I'd swear my firing order is neither number above, but it runs and doesn't backfire up to 2000 RPM! It did back when, under power, so it is likely wrong. What to do!? Also, the Holley 9510 leaks like a sive. I assume a rebuild kit should help that. Sat too long, too dry? I seek wisdom and guidance. Thanks! ------------- Ski Antique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 5:26pm
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Randy,
Does the Waukeshaw have a ID tag on it to confirm it's rotation? When you say "turns right", you mean clockwise? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 72 ski antique
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 6:11pm
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Thanks a million Pete for getting back. I don't know if I can read the plate, it is fairly crusty, but I will try. Even if I get a portion of the order that should help me match with one or the other! Yes, standing behind, facing forward, the engine turns clockwise.
I am digging around more on the Holley and I'm thinking that 9510 is not the model number. 2DJL-9510-E might mean something? If you have any clues on that I'd be grateful. I think I may have to bite the bullet and pay for the rebuild. Raw fuel is not a fun thing in your bilge! ------------- Ski Antique |
Posted By: 72 ski antique
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 6:21pm
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What's weird is I ordered a ccw distributor from Summit, becasue they didn't have cw ones on their site. I had to send it back. I would think most all single engines would spin clockwise. Twins another story, yet all they have for sale was ccw. My cw model was still in stock at Mallory so I could still get one. That is what has me nervous. I'm a GM Chevy small block kind guy. They spin clockwise. I will also confess that when I was messing with the distributor before, I thought I had a 351 Cleveland big block. SO that may be the order I used! Guess I'd better check that. My son wants me to get the boat to the lake on Friday, so I'm getting squeezed for time.... but that's me.
Thanks ------------- Ski Antique |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 6:44pm
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A lot of these Ford 351s have the Holley 4160 carburetor, which is a vaccuum secondary. That said, even within the model, there are different variations. You order your rebuild kit based on the numbers stamped on the choke horn. Holley tech support can help you with that.
I'm thinking firing order should not really be based on who marinized it ie (Washuka vs PCM etc) but the actual engine manufacturer. I found 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3 for RH Ford 351s in the PCM manual, in the reference section of this site. There is also a Washuka manual. On page 10 (page 12 on the scanned pdf) it said there should be a plate somewhere on the motor that gives the timing. This engine parts site: http://www.ebasicpower.com/mm5/apps/ieprts.php?id=52 - Engine site gives the same 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3 for 351 Right Handers. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 7:51pm
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The only other order for a RH 351 is: 1-8-7-3-6-2-4-5. I don't know which is the older of the two but for a Waukeshaw, it would be the older. Might as well give it a try.
The distributors for a LH or a RH both turn the same direction. It's the gear on the end that's different. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 72 ski antique
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 7:59pm
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great reassurance Thanks so much. ------------- Ski Antique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 8:02pm
Pete, I do believe its only the older 260/289/302's that had that 18736245 FO. 351's have always been 18456273. Starting sometime around '72-73, all Windsors got the 351w FO. If it runs, but not well, then check dwell and timing before you get too far. A picture would help us ID what carb you have. If there is a LIST number stamped on the choke horn, that would be definitive. ------------- |
Posted By: 72 ski antique
Date Posted: June-16-2011 at 12:28pm
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Gents,
Thanks a million for your guidance. "Old Speed" is up and running! Took her to the lake yesterday and went for a shake down. Life is good. I genuinely appreciate the tips. Firing order (burned in my memory now) 18456273. Yes Pete, it was on the tag! Leaking fuel was simply the o rings between the two bowls. Dry as a bone now. :) ------------- Ski Antique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-16-2011 at 1:04pm
 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-16-2011 at 1:11pm
Good to hear 
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