HELP!? 351w wont start warm!
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21057
Printed Date: May-07-2024 at 3:43am
Topic: HELP!? 351w wont start warm!
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Subject: HELP!? 351w wont start warm!
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 12:40am
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So I have asked many mechanics to take a look at my boat, and we can't figure this one out.
Let me know your thoughts (the guys on here really seem to know their stuff!) I'll let you know what I've tried already. It's a '74 nautique. 351w reverse rotation. New plugs, starter, plugs, battery. Simply put, it won't start when it's hot. BUT HERE'S THE KICKER! It starts fine, hot or not, in my driveway hooked up to the hose. For some reason, once it's out on the water, as soon as I shut it off, it won't start for about an hour. Any ideas?!? ps I have searched but I couldn't find this problem... |
Replies:
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 12:52am
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Coil could be getting hot and breaking down.
What kind of coil are you running ? Also make sure that it is not sitting on the Intake. It can draw heat. I had to change to a Blaster II because mine kept getting hot and started cutting out or would not start when hot. Also verify that you are not "leaking" fuel from the carb when you shut it off. This will flood it. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 12:57am
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Teddee -If you buy a 'Blaster II' make sure it is the Epoxy version -if you want to install it on it's side. A regular Blaster II has to stand vertical. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 12:58am
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The Coil thing was one of the things we thought could be wrong, We hooked up a new coil while the boat was not starting, and it did the exact same thing.
However, the leaking fuel from the carb could be it? Maybe it leaks from the bouncing around on the water, but not when sitting on the driveway? How would i make it not leak? Thanks for the quick reply! I've been trying to figure this out for a full year now! lol |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 1:03am
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A worn needle & seat in the bowl would cause flooding. Have you ever rebuilt the carb? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 4:19am
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Yes, the carb was just rebuilt. About 3 weeks ago.
If was flooded, when i start it full throttle, it should clear it out or no? Reason I ask, I try to start it full throttle and it still doesn't start. However, it does seem to help when it finally does start, it's because i have it full throttle. Should i send the carb back to the mechanic? |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 4:33am
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Im wondering if it's the distributer. Any ways to test it? Im getting spark, but maybe the timing is off when it's hot?
Also, im going to check the timing again, one time the bolt got loose and it changed itself... Im wondering if it did it again. Thanks for the help so far guys. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 10:44am
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it may be leaking down into the engine and once you full throttle it, it allows the air in to burn the fuel. what i would do in this case is let it sit for a while out there and pull the flame arrestor and stroke the carb watching down the throat to see if you get a nice steady stream "squirt" (i was trying to avoid squirt and throat)
and as suggested by prior posts, go after the carb again. a hot coil is a hot coil, and will affect performance all the time and not just intermintently....really sounds like a fuel issue ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 3:19pm
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Please clarify, won't start or won't turn over when hot? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: March-27-2011 at 11:58pm
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Gottask: It just keeps spinning but doesn't fire up
Eric: When i do that, i get a steady stream. Strong squirts right down the throat lol. Full throttle VS regular throttle. Is there a difference the way the carb reacts? In other words, on land i would never give it full throttle to rev it up, however, on the water i do. Would that be the issue? Should i test it out on the water and not give it full throttle and see what happens? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 12:51am
Yes, the further you engage the throttle, the more the butterflies open. More throttle = more air. Based on the symptoms youre describing, Id bet good money that your carb is leaking after shut down. Pop the flame arrestor off and have a look. ------------- |
Teddeee1981 wrote:Posted By: critter
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 1:13am
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[QUOTE=TRBenj] Id bet good money..... QUOTE]
So what do you do with Bad money there Tim ?? ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 8:49am
He uses it to buy Bilgecote.   ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 4:33pm
| When it finally does catch, do you get black smoke? That could be further evidence of the carb leaking after shutdown. |
Posted By: mdvalant
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 7:24pm
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My buddies boat was doing the same thing...or at least the same thing I think.
The...coil I believe was the culprit. Is that the mechanical device with two screws on it? I think they used a screwdriver to bridge the screws to override the thing and it started great. Would that make sense? I'm not mechanically inclined enough to make this a for sure thing. But I THOUGHT that's what they did.... Make any sense at all or was I not in the proper state of mind when I heard that? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5009 - '90 Ski (sold) http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5479 - '00 Sport Mississippi River - Bellevue, IA |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 7:33pm
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mdvalant, that sounds like a starter relay they might have bridged with the screwdriver. I've seen that done on cars.
Sounds like teddeee is talking about an engine that cranks, but won't fire. Vapor lock issues is another possibility? |
Posted By: mdvalant
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 7:36pm
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That's what my buddy's boat was doing....it would run like a champ...pull some acts, turn it off and it would not start. Turn over like a son of a B but wouldn't fire. Just seemed like there was no spark. It was weird.
Really made us mad lol ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5009 - '90 Ski (sold) http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5479 - '00 Sport Mississippi River - Bellevue, IA |
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 8:10pm
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Does it turn over slower when it wont crank? ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-28-2011 at 8:14pm
Ha, GD bilgekote. Ive got a gallon of white and a gallon of gray... probably wont use the stuff again! Coils can certainly overheat and cause the boat not to run once it warms up. However, if the symptoms only rear their ugly head when a warm RESTART is attempted, then Im still guessing carb leak after shut down. Tim, having the initial timing too far advanced will cause a hard start warm or cold, right? ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-29-2011 at 9:57am
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sometimes you can lead a horse......
i too feel its carb related, but, could be wrong, Tim, I got a gallon of gelcoat (gray) and a qt of black and a qt of red...with the thinners...any use for them? call me if you do ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-29-2011 at 5:20pm
What is vapor lock??? ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: March-29-2011 at 5:24pm
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Thanks guys!
It does sound slower when i try to crank it after it's warm. BUT i really think it's because im trying to start it for so long.... I'll be taking the carb back to the guy this weekend. He also seems to think it COULD be the problem and will test it. It has a brand new starter relay, also has a spark when hot. The timing could be it, will test it this weekend again. Although it was set at 8. it may have moved. Also No black smoke... |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: March-29-2011 at 5:56pm
I don't know all the science behind it, but it basically has to do with a fuel line that's not under pressure gets too hot. The gasoline starts to evaporate in the line and causes a little air bubble. Newer cars never have this problem anymore, because the gas is pushed so hard from the in-tank fuel pumps (part of the fuel injection system). It's more a problem when gasoline is being pulled (rather than pushed) from engine mounted mechanical fuel pumps common in older cars and boats. I know there are kits out there, that some of the newer, but pre-fuel injection boats have already and you can retrofit. But yeah, worth double checking the timing too. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-29-2011 at 9:00pm
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Thank you brian.. That makes since. I am wondering if it like eric said it is a fuel delivery issue???
Timing consist of elctrical timing with the key and with the set of timing on the motor right? I have never understood timing.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-29-2011 at 9:54pm
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I remember a post several years ago from one of our past members that has what I consider very good engine skills. He stated (in his very "frank" terminology), that marine engines do not vapor lock. The reason being is they do not see the heat under the dog house like a automotive engine sees under it's hood. I happen to agree with him. I have never see a marine engine vapor locked. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: March-29-2011 at 9:57pm
| I am sure someone will correct me but... I think timming is the timming of the spark to create igniton fire. too soon and half burn't gas and back fire too late ? |
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: March-30-2011 at 12:50am
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Have you checked the exhaust manifolds for leaks? They could be leaking water into the motor and keeping it from firing up. Water won't compress and slower cranking is a sign. ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: March-30-2011 at 3:05am
I think I had stumble acrross this kit from SkiDim and that's what gave me the idea: http://www.skidim.com/products.asp?dept=1057&pagenumber=2&sort_on=&sort_by= - Vapor lock kit Looks like this kit replaces the single pump with a push/pull setup. It's funny that it's for Indmar, as a guy on my lake was having trouble with a Malibu when it was hot. Of course, his was cutting out while under way... a little different issue. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: March-30-2011 at 3:07am
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Do 74's have anything at all in the way of relays that could affect this?
I know anything electrical can be less conductive when hot. Hence starter motors always acting up more when a car is fully warmed. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-30-2011 at 9:53am
Brian, The only relay would be the start relay (solenoid). They do go bad but usually from other causes. Low voltage from a bad battery, poor battery connections and bad/undersized cables are typical. The low voltage causes high amperage (Ohms law) that the start relay can't handle. It welds the contacts inside together or burns them to the point that not much get's through them. I do not feel this is the problem on this boat. He does say it does crank (turn over). You may be thinking about the injected engines with the small relays for the fuel pumps that go bad. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-01-2011 at 6:21am
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Thanks Guys!
The carb is off. I'll be taking it in this weekend. Im also going to see if there's a spare around that i can test. See if it is indeed the problem. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: April-01-2011 at 11:37am
I have come to one conclusion for sure. These 4 barrel carbs either run perfect or if not re-built correctly they run crappy..I am gonna have to have mine rechecked, I think mine was rebuilt wrong. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: April-01-2011 at 5:47pm
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thats for sure..when I rebuilt my carb along with the engine, It was almost I month until I got it running fine, I had problem with leaking after shut off, iddle, etc. Major problem was a vacuum leak between carb base and performer intake I put there, solved it a spread to square bore base adaptor from summit...
------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 5:16am
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One thing i haven't thought of at all is the exhaust manifolds. For all i know they are the originals.
I should replace them. Could this really be the problem though? |
Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 10:49am
I don't think the exhaust manifolds would have anything to do with the problem you describe. Very old manifolds may start leaking at the gaskets or develop cracks/leaks but those problems would not give the troubles with hot starts you describe. ------------- The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 10:53am
I agree. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 8:27pm
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PROBLEM SOLVED!
For now anyway! lol It was a ballast that runs a wire to the coil. For some reason it was only running between 6 and 8 volts at start up. On one side there was three wires. One running to the distributer, one being the power, and one im not sure about. On the other side there was only one wire. It was running to the coil. I always assumed i should leave it, so it doesn't burn out the coil. but a friend mine insisted it won't burn the coil out with 12 volts running to it constantly. My theory is on the water there was more load, more fuel. Not enough spark. On land, there was enough spark to get it going. Thoughts? PS i currently have a different carb all together on it. The same problem happened when i took it out. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 8:58pm
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Ted,
Your friend may want to buy you a coil for a spare! The ballast resistor is there to lower the voltage to about 9 volts. The 6 to 8 is on the low side so you want to get some volt readings and see where you are getting a voltage drop. You aren't by chance running a deep cycle battery in the boat?? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 9:44pm
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I believe i AM running a deep cycle battery.
Would that be no good? Im going to test that third wire, maybe it is connected to the ignition switch and should be on the other side of the ballast... |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 9:57pm
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So on one side it's 3 wires.
Power One goes to the distributer and one goes to the electric choke. The other side had only the one wire going to the coil. |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 10:07pm
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voltage drops when hot... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2011 at 10:22pm
Bad on the deep cycle. You are starting a engine and not running a trolling motor. Sorry, but some do make this mistake. Deep cycle: Low amp draw for extended periods of time. Starting: High amp draw for a short time. How did you end up with the deep cycle? As mentioned, get some voltage readings. A deep cycle will have a BIG voltage drop with a high amp load like starting. They do not like it!!!! The "load" side of the ballast resistor goes to the coil. The "line" side of the resistor would also go to the electric choke and if you have a electronic point conversion, to the distributor. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-04-2011 at 1:33am
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The boat came with a battery, i have replaced the battery with a new one (same one though)
It is a marine battery. I believe it is a deep cycle. Not a hundred percent though. I will look again next weekend. What battery would you recommend? With a proper battery you think the coil will get the voltage it needs? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-04-2011 at 8:58am
Ted, The only basic difference between a marine and automotive starting battery is the addition of threaded studs on the marine. Most likely you have the lug type battery terminal on the cables so a automotive is fine. Most here run them plus you won't pay for the extra "marine". Without getting some voltage readings, it's hard to say if the low voltage you are getting is the battery. Even old ignition key switches can be a issue with burnt contacts with resistance that will drop voltage. Tracing voltage during cranking from the battery all the way to the starter and the coil would give you a idea of what's going on. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-05-2011 at 5:59am
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Got it. Will test some more this weekend and let you know how it goes.
Thanks again. Teddy |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-07-2011 at 7:35pm
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i read somewhere that there should be a wire running from the starter relay to the coil side of the ballast.
Is that true? mine does not have that. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-07-2011 at 7:36pm
That is not the standard PCM set up, no. Indmar did that though. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-07-2011 at 8:48pm
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Ted,
That 12 volt "kick start" wire off the starter relay is how we ID intruders from the MC sight!! 
BTW, where have you been reading about that? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-07-2011 at 11:56pm
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LOL NO WAY was i on an MC site!
My nautique is my first boat and will be with me forever! I googled Coil resistor. Came on to a car site. There was a diagram of what it should look like (or at least what someone believes it should look like). I took a picture of the screen with my cell. I will post it when i get home see what you think. You've all been very helpful. I really appreciate it. Teddy |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-08-2011 at 3:25am
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Here is the diagram, as you can see it's for a '56 Ford which i know my boat is not. However, this setup makes sense to me.
How is the coil supposed to get 12 volts still going through the resistor? I know there something im missing here... 
|
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-08-2011 at 8:59am
Ted, First, as Tim mentioned, PCM does not use the 12 volts to the coil when cranking. Keep looking for a voltage drop with the meter. The 12 volt to the coil when cranking is really pretty simple. With the start relay energized, the power to the coil comes from it and is 12 volts. After the engine starts, power to the coil comes from the key ignition switch (run position) goes through the resistor and ends up at the coil at about 9 volts. BTW, instead of looking at automotive wiring diagrams, take a look in the engine manuals in the ref section. They have wiring diagrams. Very similar to auto but some small differences. Here's one:  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: April-08-2011 at 12:32pm
I realize PCM doesn't have this, but what does this function do? Just give a hotter spark for start up? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-08-2011 at 12:57pm
The concept is it compensates for a voltage drop encountered from the high load of the starter when cranking the engine. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Teddeee1981
Date Posted: April-08-2011 at 2:12pm
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I'll be working on this tonight.
I have to batteries now, and will install the second one tonight. Hopefully that will get the coil the voltage it needs at start up. Will keep you posted. PS. Is the wire from the starter relay a bad idea? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-08-2011 at 4:05pm
Ted, It's not a "bad" idea by why do you feel it's needed? PCM never thought it was needed! Find the problem and fix it. Don't forget to get some voltage readings so the problem can be located. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |