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96 SN GT40 stumble

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96SNEFI View Drop Down
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    Posted: August-08-2019 at 3:45am
So I recently had success with replacing the coil. Doing so, I had the hope that the problem that occured last year would be relatedly fixed.
I had some guests for the long weekend (in Canada). After some slower speed skiing, many attempts to get up on a wakeboard, one slalom skier and then finally me...I was approaching the dock just ahead and felt the tic of a stumble, then another more pronounced, then things rapidly went downhill to a nasty stumble and then the driver just turned the thing off as I sank down into the water.
WTH
Last year I was coming back from a nice cruise around when it did the same thing but it kind of kept going surging and stumbling and I nursed it back to the dock.

So I searched a little here and found something maybe similar and they seemed to have success with the distributor. Gary S here also mentioned the sensor (stator ? ). Is this a difficult part to replace? The engine only has about 800 or so hours on it but certainly 23 years old. The link Gary S gave went to Rockauto but there were several variations. Which one?
All the tune-up ignition stuff was replaced several years ago if not double digits. Would wires fail over time? Cap? Rotor? Plugs I know can...but in my 13 years of ownership I've only put another 100 or so hours on it. Yeah I know...real active this guy. :)

So...sensor? Whole distributor? Other tune-up parts?

What might be the problem with this darn thing? Dang it's frustrating being 4 hours away from a dealer. I'm reasonably mechanically inclined but diagnosis is not my strong suit.

Thanks for any ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 10:07am
The part your looking for is FOSZ-12A112-A link    You have to remove the gear and the collar that is attached with roll pins on the bottom of the distributor,remove the shaft then replace the sensor. or replace the whole distributor, F1TZ-12127-c link. You need the one with the cast gear or reuse your old gear. You then of course would have to retime your engine. Don't know how being in Canada affects ordering and or customs,maybe you can use those part numbers to order locally?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:23pm
Thanks again Gary S.
A little searching finds that the re/re of the stator/sensor/pick-up is a little complicated...particularly the "roll pins".
How does a hall sensor fail?
What are the chances that this will solve the problem?
Why, after a period of time of use, does the thing start to stumble and fail but otherwise works fine? I guess heat...but why?
Can you think of other things I should look at for this problem?
Could it be just the simple things like rotor/cap/wires/plugs?
Can the stator be re-conditioned at all for re-use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gt40KS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 12:35am
If you're uncomfortable working on the distributor I'd suggest just replacing the entire unit. This is what I did last year - far simpler and faster and really, less expensive in the long run. Rock Auto sells several brand new compatible units. They're automotive not marine, however all you need to do is plug the vent in the rotor cap and it is virtually identical to the marine version.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-09-2019 at 1:43am
Thanks gt40KS. Yeah I read a whole thread elsewhere about some guy who went through the whole pickup replacement job and still kept some of the original problem that lead him there. He finally gave up and replaced the whole thing and his problem disappeared.
I'm getting both and am willing to expend the extra cost of the part to see if I can fix the problem. And if not I would have the distrbutor on hand anyway.

I'm just not confident of my roll pin re/re prowess. Banging the distributor around without a proper press and drive pin and clamping method...well...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 4:38pm
Ahhhh!!!
For craps sake.
So I got a reman'd distributor.
Took careful note of where it was pointing to. Turned the engine manually to point the rotor directly back.
Pulled old, inserted new and oriented it the same way and up and down a couple times to point the rotor back. Tightened down the clamp.
Started it. It ran. Nicely. For a few moments. Then the distributor spun a little and of course it stopped. So I loosened the clamp, turned it back, tightened the clamp hopefully more.
Cranked it. But it seemed to be maybe a weak battery. Got another battery. Started it. It ran. Then developed a loud squeak. Then not long after died as though it simply couldn't keep going..
Crap.

So I guess I need to do the whole TDC and re-time...but what the heck is with the squeak?! And why did it die?

Any help would be great. I'm 4 or so hours away from a dealer. I'm somewhat handy.

Crap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 4:53pm
I hate to say this but are you sure you engaged the new distributor with your oil pump drive shaft?   Did you have oil pressure on the start up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 5:15pm
I had thought that I had it down fully seated.
I'm not in the boat for a short while to see if there was some kind of notch. But would it fully seat if it wasn't engaged?
Thanks for the reply. Maybe it shut down noticing no oil pressure. I didn't notice that either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 5:31pm
Squeak is most likely from the alternator putting a heavy charge out because the battery is drained. The computer does not like low voltage is one possible reason it stops. Get the charger out- you cannot depend on the alternator to charge a depleted battery. Gt40 does not have shut down feature, just limits rpm and turns on light
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 5:34pm
I had it jumped to another battery.
I'm on my mobile so I may not be terribly verbose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 6:14pm
If it's fully seated, then the distributor shaft is engaging the oil pump driveshaft if the engine was put together right. The distributor shaft engages the oil pump drive shaft before the gears are fully engaged and when the distributor is fully seated the gears are fully engaged.

You seem pretty sure it was fully seated, and maybe your clamp wasn't tight so it spun some.

Assuming there were no battery issues to start with, it sounds like you have the timing too far advanced which makes the engine turn over reeeeal hard and slow and makes you think you have a bad battery.

Since you don't know why it died, I'd pull the distributor out, look down the hole to see the oil pump driveshaft in the middle of the hole, get a look at the distributor teeth to make sure there's no damage, look at the teeth on the cam gear for the same reason and then set the engine at #1 cylinder at TDC on the compression stroke and reinstall the distributor and time it from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 6:53pm
Ok. I'm back. Now I see. There's no way that oil pump could not have been engaged.

So yeah...I haven't set timing on an engine in decades. While I search, if anyone would like to chime in with how to identify #1 tdc compression stroke and where to place the rotor and all the timing things - that would be great.

Edit: @KENO: Yup...blew off 3 teeth. Crap. Would incorrect timing do that?
I found a step by step on the other site for timing so I'm good there...once I get another distributor.
Getting a light to see what the mating gear and oil pump driveshaft look like. And a magnet to pull out parts.

Edit: I rotated the engine looking at the mating gear and it appears to be intact. No parts to pull out seeing as how this is an open cavity to the sump. Can I put a socket on that oil pump shaft and see if it rotates (if I can rotate it)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2019 at 11:06pm
Boy I must be psychotic or psychic or something. Most people would say psychotic

You could use a 1/4 inch drive 5/16 socket and a long extension and a ratchet to turn the oil pump drive shaft counterclockwise (normal direction of rotation) and make sure it rotates.

I'd tack weld the socket to the extension or do something like tape it real good so you don't lose the socket in the pan accidentally. A deep socket is easier to tape and harder to lose

I think you may not have had the distributor fully seated when you started the engine and that chewed up the teeth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 1:27am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Boy I must be psychotic or psychic or something. Most people would say psychotic

You could use a 1/4 inch drive 5/16 socket and a long extension and a ratchet to turn the oil pump drive shaft counterclockwise (normal direction of rotation) and make sure it rotates.

I'd tack weld the socket to the extension or do something like tape it real good so you don't lose the socket in the pan accidentally. A deep socket is easier to tape and harder to lose

I think you may not have had the distributor fully seated when you started the engine and that chewed up the teeth.


I don't understand the psychic bit.

It looked rather hex to me so I wondered if I could turn it. Thanks. Counter-clockwise - check.

So it would seem seeing as how it spun a little. It looked down to me. I'm rather relieved that the mating gear appeared fine. I'll test out turning the oil pump shaft. I just wanted to know if I could turn it by hand. I'm getting another distributor tomorrow. Depending on the weather we'll see when I can get to it.

I still wonder about the loud squeak, squeal whetever. I still wonder about seeming to need extra battery power. I still wonder why it started and then died after initial starting after the spin. I would really have rathered it not start. And my feeling that it just seemed to be laboring and then dies. It's what made me really concerned about a non-functioning oil pump. Could it have broken in this event?

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 8:38am
Originally posted by 96SNEFI 96SNEFI wrote:


I don't understand the psychic bit.


I just had this feeling that you should pull the distributor back out and were gonna find some chewed up teeth

It sounds like you're wondering if the engine was seizing

Probably not, but use a 15/16 socket on the front crankshaft bolt and turn clockwise to rotate your normal rotation engine.

To get your #1 cylinder to TDC on the compression stroke, it's what you'll be doing anyways. With all the spark plugs out, it'll turn easier, but it still takes some effort.

It should be smooth turning and not make any funny noises
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 9:19am
You could also use an oil pump priming tool and a good 1/2 inch drill to turn the oil pump shaft counterclockwise and watch your oil pressure to see that the pump is hopefully good.

The drill will definitely be doing some work to turn the pump and circulate some oil.

Some people use the same 1/4 inch extension and 5/16 socket mentioned above instead of a priming tool. Just more chance of losing a socket in the engine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 2:46pm
You can also spin the oil pump with a speed handle, you are just checking to make sure it works.   Keno is accurate, don't put a socket in the engine without securing it to your extension. It gets very ugly when you have to pull an oil pan to get your socket or extension back out.
Your old distributor should have the exact same drive gear, if yours is in good shape you might be able to swap for the bad gear on your new dizzy.
They are usually held in place by a roll pin. New gears can be purchased also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

You can also spin the oil pump with a speed handle, you are just checking to make sure it works.   Keno is accurate, don't put a socket in the engine without securing it to your extension. It gets very ugly when you have to pull an oil pan to get your socket or extension back out.
Your old distributor should have the exact same drive gear, if yours is in good shape you might be able to swap for the bad gear on your new dizzy.
They are usually held in place by a roll pin. New gears can be purchased also.


Since I "broke-it-I-bought-it :) I'm definitely looking at swapping the gear. I'm looking for the right tool to press it out if it exists in a reasonably affordable hand-tool. I'm not too keen on banging away on the thing.
If I can swap then I'll return THAT one as the core. But I'll have another distributor on hand before I do that. Then return the "new" one and the core.

Yes...I just want to see that the oil pump shaft turns. Maybe rig up the drill to see if oil flows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 3:54pm
One thing you should look before swapping gears is the internal hex in the bottom of the distributor shaft.

Make sure it's not rounded off.

Compare it to your original distributor that you took out.

A 5/16 or 8mm Allen wrench should fit in the hex in the shaft without much play at all

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

One thing you should look before swapping gears is the internal hex in the bottom of the distributor shaft.

Make sure it's not rounded off.

Compare it to your original distributor that you took out.

A 5/16 or 8mm Allen wrench should fit in the hex in the shaft without much play at all



Will do. So the gear and the female shaft are "sacrificial" so as not to damage deeper parts?

Edit: it seems to be very little play. Seemingly no more or less than the original. The "new" one sounds a little rougher turning than the original. I thought that was odd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-23-2019 at 5:24pm
There are no "sacrificial" parts in your engine only in your wallet- could be plastic could be cash
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-24-2019 at 2:16am
So I got another distributor, got a couple roll pins, got a 1/8 straight pin punch.
I didn't like banging on the thing but I surprised myself that I was reasonably able to punch out the pin. Pulling the gear of course needed my 3-claw puller.
Banging it and hopefully lining up the holes...how important is it that the pin enters the other side? It's *this* close. I was able to get the pin almost all the way in through to the other side but not quite. The gear is awfully tight on there. The pin is sticking out maybe a 1/16 on the entry side. What is the actual potential here? Or should I punch the pin out and re-pull the gear and try again? Or is there a trick to spin the gear on the shaft to align perfectly with the holes?
Thanks for any insights.

Edit: ok so I went ahead and punched it out and then after much fiddling short of pulling it back off I thought of driving the pin (another new one) in from the other side and that worked. So I'm in.
Now to time and test run.

Edit: bl@@dy h311. I'm sure I have this right. Starboard/forward plug out, press thumb against hole, manually crank engine, feel it burp past my thumb, align timing pointer to TC, insert distributor, point sparky end of rotor to 1, clamp it, install cap seeing that it is indeed going to the big 1 on the top of the cap.
Turn key to on, pumps prime, crank, no start. Spark at distributor, spark at a plug.
WTH
Dang this is frustrating.

Edit: running now. Please see other thread after warm up.
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